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rowedenny(at)windstream.n
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 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:52 am Post subject: 2200 on MK III |
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Ellery,
Here is some info on 2200 powered Mk-3s, I believe this gentleman has since retired, moved and sold his Kolb but I spoke with him several times and he was pleased with his Jab and operated from a 600 ft field. Climb was at least as good as a 582 but of course could not compete with the 912 but cruise is right in there.
Luray Wecter has a 2200 powered Slingshot and loves the engine. The nicest thing about the Jab is the super clean installation and simplicity.
Fixed wood props are a must to maximize thrust, and noise is a pretty high, also the ignition problems that John W outlined are a concern, I wonder if Jabiru has addressed that issue in the newer engines?
I'll try to dig up some other info and post it.
Denny Rowe
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ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: 2200 on MK III |
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Denny
There thats reasuring to me that not everyone has tunnel vision on Rotax Engines
Thats funny I just got off the phone with Lonnie Prince and I really liked what he told me about his Prop that he makes for the Jab and Kolb Recipe Thanks for your input on the KOLB & Jabaru Mix
Ellery Building MK3Xtra
do not archive
[quote][b]
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John Williamson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 146
Location: Arlington, TX
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: Re: 2200 on MK III |
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Have you ever noticed that whatever engine is on your airplane is the greatest engine in the world. At least that is what you tell everyone.
Nobody is going to tell you the whole truth about his engine if he is in the market for something else and will need to sell the present engine.
I more than tried the Jabiru 2200 engine on the Kolbra. 508 hours is a lot of flying. I now have over 1,050 hours flying a Rotax 912ULS. I also have 5 hours with a Rotax 912UL on the Kolbra.
Maintenance on the Rotax is way less than on the Jabiru.
If you operate in conditions that let you turn a wooden prop then the Jabiru will work. A good composite prop with some leading edge protection lets me fly in any condition: rain, snow, dust or whatever as long as it is VFR.
Define your mission or goals and buy the engine that will fulfill your needs.
Engines are like a piece of candy, you can't please everyone with the same kind.
do not archive
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_________________
John Williamson
Arlington, TX
Kolbra, 912ULS, 1640 hours
http://home.tx.rr.com/kolbrapilot |
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rowedenny(at)windstream.n
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject: 2200 on MK III |
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John,
I agree that the 912 series gives the best all around performance on the big
Kolbs. I also understand the issues you had with the 2200.
My friend Luray with the 2200 powered Slingshot would NOT say he has the
greatest engine going on his bird, but he does say he is more than happy
with its performance as well as installation. Having had a liquid cooled
engine on the Slingshot previously, he was not excited about installing an
engine with another rad and oil cooler and associated plumbing required. I'm
sure you all saw his bird at Homers this year and have to agree its a nice
performing aircraft.
I know the 912 and its systems are well proven and if I found a lightly used
one in my price range I would replace my 2SI in a heartbeat. (I also do not
think I have the greatest engine going, but for the $2600 bucks I paid for
it, you won't beat it  )
However, having spent a couple years on the Sonex aircraft Yahoo group and
hearing pireps on the Jabiru engines on Kolbs and Sonex aircraft as they
evolved over the last couple years, I am convinced they are worthy of
consideration as an alternative engine.
There is also a butt load of them on Titan aircraft that perform like a bat
out of hell.
Of course they are not perfectly optimized for these slow aircraft, but they
certainly perform well enough for safe operation.
As I recall, Richard Neilsen saw an Mk-3 Xtra with a new 2200 at a fly in
this summer and was pleasently surprised at its climb performance. When he
mentioned it here, I was surprised nobody commented.
Anyway, I don't mean to try to convince others to buy Jabirus, but I believe
they should be considered as probably the second choice after 912 series for
the big Kolbs. After all, the 912 and the 2200 are the only real airplane
engines available for our birds.
Denny Rowe,
Mk-3, 2si 690L-70
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ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:43 pm Post subject: 2200 on MK III |
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This is a long one You might want to delete it before you get started.
I am not on the market for a good deal on a used engine I am going to buy a New engine what ever my decision ends up being I just want it to be the right decision,
I have installed and flew more than one 912S Rotax I am not knocking the preformance of that engine at all it does a super job and I am in progress of installing a 2200 Jab on another Plane right now the engine looks like it was really built very well compared to the Casted parts of a 912 it just seems that if a shop was willing to build a sharp looking machine like that with some expensive CNC Machining capabilitys that they would have brains enough to put some engineering into it also. it will be a few weeks before I get to fire up the Jabaru
I should probably be comparing it to the 582 well if I did, that would be a short conversation in my book. Dont get mad at me if your running one  )
I am trying to keep an open mind on all 4 stroke options avaliable all though I have ruled out the VW engine its just not the one for me.
this is some of the info I received on a Jabaru and a MK3Xtra marriage,
It sure does seem to liven things up a touch when discussing putting a 2200 Jabiru on a Kolb in the USA, I am not in any way trying to influence your decision on what engine to mount on your Mk3 Xtra, that decision is obviously up to you, all that I am doing is providing information regarding the performance of my Xtra fitted with a Jab (some of the figures also come from my friends Xtra which has a few hundred hours on it, mine is relatively new with only around 50 hours on it) I am also not attempting to compare the Jab performance with any other engine as I have no experience with other power plants other than the 582 on an Xtra, only to say that for me in the UK the Jab has more than enough performance with excellent short field capabilities, to clean up the airframe the wheels are fitted with spats and the undercart legs are streamlined using some of the plastic shaped covering which is used to fair the lift struts, this alone gives 3 to 4 mph,
I understand and agree with comments from the others that a slower turning larger diameter prop is theoretically more efficient on a Kolb, I don't know as I have no practical experience of this, all that I do know is that with very careful selection of propellor, the 85hp Jabiru produces enough performance for us in the UK.
You do have to select the correct prop for the Jab in pusher configuration on a Kolb, as far as I am aware a lot of the adjustable composite prop manufacturers do not recommend their props as strong enough for a direct drive engine on a Kolb, we normally have used GT wood props from Italy but are in the process of testing and getting approval for the Prince P tip wood/composite props from the USA, performance with the Prince prop is markedly better than the GT and they also run a lot smoother with minimum vibration, as I said before because of restrictive noise limits on microlights in the UK we do not prop the Jab to run at 3300 but aim for 2900 max, prop noise isn't too much of a problem in the cockpit but according to the CAA it could be to those on the ground, the Prince prop I have on is 62 X 41 and gives a solo climb of 1000 to 1200fpm depending on the day at a climb speed of 48kts, as I said before maximum straight and level speed with this prop is 83(95mph)kts without spats etc, and 87kts(100mph) with faired U/C legs and wheel spats, the 87kts is academic here in the UK as the Xtra has a VNE of 83kts,the finer pitch props which let the Jab rev to 3300 are not an option in the UK because of the noise generated, and also although the wot speed and climb is very good, it is too slow at lower throttle settings, I haven't measured actual take off distance but it is very short with first stage of flap,on test flights last week at maximum auw we were airborne at just over 30kts.
The engine mount is a factory item supplied to the UK Importer by Kolb,
I have read recent comments on the list regarding carb icing and engine cranking at low temps, the Jab is susceptible to carb icing and to combat this electric carb body heating is fitted to all of the Jabs that I am aware of, this cures the problem, and as it warms the carb body and not the incoming air charge it does not rob the engine of power, I aren't aware of any water problems stopping the engine from starting, but the Rotax intake silencer that we fit shields the ignition electrics from rain etc, I can't comment on high humidity as we don't have that problem here in the UK, but we do have a lot of rain, as for cranking the engine when cold, you do need a decent battery, we use car racing batteries, Varley Red Top 15 is the minimum with 550 amp cranking power to ensure good reliable cold weather starting, a RED Top 30 would be better but is slightly heavier,
The Prince prop is interesting as it varies it's pitch according to load on the prop disc, twists to finer pitch in the climb, goes back to coarser pitch in the cruise, the web address for Prince Props is http://www.princeaircraft.com/
I listen to all of the comments regarding the performance of the Rotax 912 engines on Kolbs and also accept the fact that a slower turning prop produces more static thrust and theoretically a better climb performance etc than a direct drive engine, but the fact is that we do like the Jabiru 2200 with the hydraulic lifters over here , it produces excellent performance at 3000rpm or less which makes cruising at 70/75knots(81/86mph) reasonably relaxing, the figures I have quoted are verified test conditions figures backed up by gps results, with the Prince P tip prop that I have fitted, the test figures that I have dug out from my documents this afternoon give a wot figure of 87knots(100.2mph) with a climb of 850/900fpm at max auw, when flown solo with full tanks the wot speed is slightly more with a climb rate of 1200fpm+ depending on the day, if we fit the finer pitch Prince P tip prop that we have the wot speed is 95/96 knots(110mph) and the climb rate is substantially higher than before.
here in the UK most of us run Jabiru 2200's with hydraulic lifters
on our Mk3 Xtras and are well satisfied with the performance that we get, I
run a Prince P tip wood/composite propellor on mine, Only one Xtra in the UK
has a Rotax 912 to my knowledge and one has a Rotax 532 on it, I was
wondering what the 'spirited performance' figures are that you say that you
all get from a 912 or a re-drive VW in comparison to what we get from our
Jabiru installations, I had thought sometime ago about a re-drive for the
Jab, in fact I approached Valley Engineering to see if their re-drive could
be adapted for the Jab, they sounded interested in the project but I haven't
as yet taken it further, since that time I have fitted a Prince P tip
propellor from your side of the pond and have seen a distinct improvement in
performance, both climb and cruise and smoothness, as we have quite severe
noise restrictions (we have to have a noise certificate issued by the CAA
for every microlight engine/prop/aircraft combination) we do not usually
prop for max rpm and aim for 2800/2900 with the Jab, this gives 100mph+ and
1000+fpm climb, 2600 rpm gives a comfortable cruise around 80mph, if we do
prop finer with a Prince P tip to 3300 max rpm we get substantially more
performance but exceed the noise levels that we are restricted to, I will
be interested to see the figures for a 912 or VW as we have no experience of
these motors.
Ellery in Maine
do not archive
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