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First Flight Prep

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kearney(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: First Flight Prep

Hi  

   

I have changed the thread title as I prefer to look forward.   

   

When I first spoke to my AME (Canadian A&P) about my RV10 project the first words that cam out of his mouth were “not to confuse a DAR inspection with a real pre-flight inspection”.  I am using my DAR to confirm that my build quality is reasonable and will meet certification requirements. In practical terms it means that I am not doing anything that would otherwise impair my ability to get a CoA so I that I am legal to fly. I do know that contrary to Transport Canada’s opinion, paperwork does not make an a/c fly.  

   

This in my mind is only the first step in a long process to getting into the air.   

   

In very board terms, my plan of attack is to:  

     Know      how to use whatever is in panel before I fly. Whatever ground calibrations      can be done will be done and triple checked.  
Have      an AME who I respect to go over what I have done with a fine tooth comb. I      want then to find every nit they can, to be as picky as possible. When      they have been corrected to the AME’s satisfaction, then and only then      will the a/c fly.   
I      would also like to find an experienced RV10 pilot to actually fly the a/c      first. I know my PA28 extremely well and can often tell when something is      not right by sound / feel and intuition. I would like to find someone with      that kind of experience to start the fly off.   
I      also plan to do transition training with an experienced instructor so I      have a good understanding of what to expect. This will be done after the      a/c is ready to fly and not before. Recency of training is important to      me.  
I      also plan to lay out a flight program for the fly off period. The program      will be based on what the best resources available. If there are issues,      they will be addressed as found.   

   

My view is that I want to minimize any risks (and there will always be some). I am in line for an EGG engine. While some may think that is an additional risk, I view it as just a different risk from a Lycosaur. I have only flown an O-360 so an IO540 with a C/S prop presents a new learning curve. The Egg engine also has a leaning curve. Bothe are manageable in mind and neither are particularly troublesome provided that I do the right and appropriate things to ensure I am never behind the a/c.   

   

I am still quite some time away from a first flight and I am certain my plans will change. I would be interested in hearing what other people have/will do in preparation for their first flights. I’d like to learn from their experiences.   

   

Cheers  

   

Les Kearney   

#40643 – Still singing the section 29 blues (but much, much closer to the final few bars).  

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt

 Sent: November-19-07 12:09 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: N289DT Accident  

  

     

I could not agree with you more John.  We should never stop expanding our piloting skills and if we don't feel comfortable with something, stop and get help.  Everytime I go flying with an instructor, air traffic controller, airline pilot, aerobatic pilot and high time pilot, if I let them critique my skills and open myself up to criticism, I always learn something new or have something pointed out to me.  We all have good and bad habits.  

 

 One thing I picked up on in Tim's write-up that I have talked about with my wife even before Dan's accident is the increased danger of flying single pilot.  I can understand why insurance companies like two pilots in the cockpit of certain jets, it is simply safer to have two brains working on conducting a safe flight.  How many guys have taken an accidental cat nap while flying?  How many of us get distracted with something and forget to look outside?  If you have ever had someone fly with you who is very good at cockpit management, you will understand how nice it is.  I love having someone read off my checklist for every aspect of the flight.  Even if the person in the copilot seat is not a pilot, you fly safer because you don't want anything to go wrong.  I  know a person who fell asleep and flew into a mountain, luckily he is still alive but will probably never fly again.  It is just a risk factor that is added to the sum.  Reviewing the NTSB teaches you that typically accidents are not one thing.  They are the sum of multiple risk factors that reached a critical mass.  This is not the case all the time, just most of the time.

 I think this is what John is pointing out in his e-mail and in Tim's write-up as well.  We all know this stuff but it good to be reminded. 

 

 I want to make a comment about the DAR. When I had my plane inspected, he spent 15 minutes looking at the plane.  I don't think the DAR can fully inspect true defects, it is up to us to get good experienced builders to look at the workmanship of our planes.  My biggest concern on my first flight was to make sure the engine ran flawlessly.  I flushed my tanks 3 times to insure I had no large pieces of proseal, I did a flow test to check that I could sustain a 30 gph flow rate with the electric fuel pump and make sure there were no clogged lines, and I pressurized the system to check for any leaks.  If you are relying on the DAR to let you know where all the problems are, think again.  I'm sure there are some incredible DAR's who really understand systems, and not so great ones.  To me, the DAR is there to do paperwork.  Like I mentioned, we spent 15 minutes on the plane and literally 4 hours on paperwork, review of my manual for all steps checked off, engine and prop log review, ect......   With Light Sport registration and all the new Experimentals flying, these guys are very busy and do a very wide range of aircraft.  

 

 This won't be the last accident.  I am concerned that IMC related accidents will top the list after 5-10 more years.  The invention of glass cockpits is incredible but it does increase your situational awareness even though you can't see outside which in turn increases our confidence of flying into IMC conditions.  Hopefully with weather info and better icing data, this won't be the case.   I sure would like to see some data on the RV-10 over time showing it is one of the safest 4 place plane on the market. 

 

 Just remember, if anything does happen and you have to make a forced landing, the insurance company is now the new owner.  

 I like the way Wayne Handley signs his posters, "Keep your Knots Up, Speed is Life". 

 I think he writes that so that you'll think about it in emergency situations. 

 Fly the plane to the ground.     

   

  

Scott Schmidt

 

 Do not archive              

  

       [quote][b]

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: First Flight Prep

When we eventually learn if the Phase One was completed other than “SOLO ONLY” a lot of needless speculation will be answered.  If anyone flew during the Phase One with Dan (or any other RV-10 builder for that matter), a full accounting would be in order.  And I for one would never ever consider business dealings with such a fool.  If someone has Limitations that permit a second sole onboard I would love to hear about it. If you are not qualified to complete the Phase One, hire a gunslinger who is (to fly it solo).   The Phase One is a high valued process.  

   

Your plan for successful completion of your flying aircraft seems both prudent and safe.  

   

Tim, Scott and I sing the same notes on the same sheet of music.  “Get Transition Training”  Make certain every variable is reduced to a non event.  Fly Often, Fly Safe, Live Long.  I tend to sing off key with additional verse.  “Get High Performance Proficiency Training” as well which teaches you the operation of the aircraft through its full range of potential – Including High Alpha  - Engine Out maneuvers.  

   

As Scott has stated, When the engine stops in flight, the aircraft catches fire or the pilot becomes incapacitated, the aircraft is the immediate property of the insurance company.  Walk away slowly and safely as soon as practical.  Fly another day to share the experience with your builder brethren.  

   

Flight Prep is a wise thing.  

   

John Cox  

Do not Archive  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney

 Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:50 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: First Flight Prep  

  

   

Hi  

   

I have changed the thread title as I prefer to look forward.   

   

When I first spoke to my AME (Canadian A&P) about my RV10 project the first words that cam out of his mouth were “not to confuse a DAR inspection with a real pre-flight inspection”.  I am using my DAR to confirm that my build quality is reasonable and will meet certification requirements. In practical terms it means that I am not doing anything that would otherwise impair my ability to get a CoA so I that I am legal to fly. I do know that contrary to Transport Canada’s opinion, paperwork does not make an a/c fly.  

   

This in my mind is only the first step in a long process to getting into the air.   

   

In very board terms, my plan of attack is to:  

   

·         Know how to use whatever is in panel before I fly. Whatever ground calibrations can be done will be done and triple checked.  

·         Have an AME who I respect to go over what I have done with a fine tooth comb. I want then to find every nit they can, to be as picky as possible. When they have been corrected to the AME’s satisfaction, then and only then will the a/c fly.   

·         I would also like to find an experienced RV10 pilot to actually fly the a/c first. I know my PA28 extremely well and can often tell when something is not right by sound / feel and intuition. I would like to find someone with that kind of experience to start the fly off.   

·         I also plan to do transition training with an experienced instructor so I have a good understanding of what to expect. This will be done after the a/c is ready to fly and not before. Recency of training is important to me.  

·         I also plan to lay out a flight program for the fly off period. The program will be based on what the best resources available. If there are issues, they will be addressed as found.  

   

My view is that I want to minimize any risks (and there will always be some). I am in line for an EGG engine. While some may think that is an additional risk, I view it as just a different risk from a Lycosaur. I have only flown an O-360 so an IO540 with a C/S prop presents a new learning curve. The Egg engine also has a leaning curve. Bothe are manageable in mind and neither are particularly troublesome provided that I do the right and appropriate things to ensure I am never behind the a/c.   

   

I am still quite some time away from a first flight and I am certain my plans will change. I would be interested in hearing what other people have/will do in preparation for their first flights. I’d like to learn from their experiences.   

   

Cheers  

   

Les Kearney   

#40643 – Still singing the section 29 blues (but much, much closer to the final few bars).  

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt

 Sent: November-19-07 12:09 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: N289DT Accident  

  

     

I could not agree with you more John.  We should never stop expanding our piloting skills and if we don't feel comfortable with something, stop and get help.  Everytime I go flying with an instructor, air traffic controller, airline pilot, aerobatic pilot and high time pilot, if I let them critique my skills and open myself up to criticism, I always learn something new or have something pointed out to me.  We all have good and bad habits.  

 

 One thing I picked up on in Tim's write-up that I have talked about with my wife even before Dan's accident is the increased danger of flying single pilot.  I can understand why insurance companies like two pilots in the cockpit of certain jets, it is simply safer to have two brains working on conducting a safe flight.  How many guys have taken an accidental cat nap while flying?  How many of us get distracted with something and forget to look outside?  If you have ever had someone fly with you who is very good at cockpit management, you will understand how nice it is.  I love having someone read off my checklist for every aspect of the flight.  Even if the person in the copilot seat is not a pilot, you fly safer because you don't want anything to go wrong.  I  know a person who fell asleep and flew into a mountain, luckily he is still alive but will probably never fly again.  It is just a risk factor that is added to the sum.  Reviewing the NTSB teaches you that typically accidents are not one thing.  They are the sum of multiple risk factors that reached a critical mass.  This is not the case all the time, just most of the time.

 I think this is what John is pointing out in his e-mail and in Tim's write-up as well.  We all know this stuff but it good to be reminded. 

 

 I want to make a comment about the DAR. When I had my plane inspected, he spent 15 minutes looking at the plane.  I don't think the DAR can fully inspect true defects, it is up to us to get good experienced builders to look at the workmanship of our planes.  My biggest concern on my first flight was to make sure the engine ran flawlessly.  I flushed my tanks 3 times to insure I had no large pieces of proseal, I did a flow test to check that I could sustain a 30 gph flow rate with the electric fuel pump and make sure there were no clogged lines, and I pressurized the system to check for any leaks.  If you are relying on the DAR to let you know where all the problems are, think again.  I'm sure there are some incredible DAR's who really understand systems, and not so great ones.  To me, the DAR is there to do paperwork.  Like I mentioned, we spent 15 minutes on the plane and literally 4 hours on paperwork, review of my manual for all steps checked off, engine and prop log review, ect......   With Light Sport registration and all the new Experimentals flying, these guys are very busy and do a very wide range of aircraft.  

 

 This won't be the last accident.  I am concerned that IMC related accidents will top the list after 5-10 more years.  The invention of glass cockpits is incredible but it does increase your situational awareness even though you can't see outside which in turn increases our confidence of flying into IMC conditions.  Hopefully with weather info and better icing data, this won't be the case.   I sure would like to see some data on the RV-10 over time showing it is one of the safest 4 place plane on the market. 

 

 Just remember, if anything does happen and you have to make a forced landing, the insurance company is now the new owner.  

 I like the way Wayne Handley signs his posters, "Keep your Knots Up, Speed is Life". 

 I think he writes that so that you'll think about it in emergency situations. 

 Fly the plane to the ground.     

   

  

Scott Schmidt

 

 Do not archive              

  [quote]   [b]

randy(at)romeolima.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: First Flight Prep

And if I can add to John's comments and get on my soapbox for  just a minute, I became an EAA Flight Advisor for the sole reason that I saw way  too many RV builders making first flights without adequate preparation, but even  more importantly I saw the majority of RV builders doing totally incomplete  Phase I work. For example, I have several close friends who flew their planes  all the way into Phase II without ever loading their planes to gross weight  and/or aft CG and testing it. Then as soon as they get to Phase II they load it  up with friends and family and go fly at gross weight and they have no idea how  the plane behaves.... what is the stall speed at this weight, what should the  approach speed be, how does it behave in the flare, etc. This is just NOT RIGHT  and just makes me cringe. I have therefore become a big of an evangelist for  doing proper Phase I testing. Heck, Van's gives you the roadmap right there in  the builder's manual, just read it. Yes, it's a hassle to figure out the sand  bags or whatever else you need to use for ballast, but it's part of your  responsibility as a manufacturer so please do it!!

  

 Now RVs are a relatively known quantity and don't think a  stock RV needs to be tested to the same extent as a new design, or a  highly modifed existing design, but every single one of us needs to at least  test the basics.

  

 Ok, off soapbox,

 Randy Lervold

 EAA Technical Counselor & Flight Advisor

 www.rv-3.com

 www.rv-8.com

  

 do not archive

  

 [quote]   ---

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: First Flight Prep

John,



Without commenting on what Dan did or did not do, nothing in the regulation prevents two people from being the "required crew" during Phase One.  



As an RV builder YOU are the manufacturer so if YOU determine that you need two sets of hand, eyeballs and feet to fully test your new creation, I see nothing in the regulation that would prevent this.   With some exaggeration, what if Boeing wanted to have a few additional test engineers aboard a new design to monitor instrumentation -- who are you or the FAA to say that they can't.  That is why the FAA leaves it up to the manufacturer to determine the "required crew" during Phase One.  That is not a limitation.



I wondered how long it would be before the finger pointing and name calling began from this tragic event.  Now we know where it starts.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 



------

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:17 pm Post subject: First Flight Prep

That "required crew" may fly with the FAA but try it on the insurance

company. The flight will likely be without insurance. In investigating this

with my Glastar, our problem was not with the FAA but with the insurance

carrier. More than one on board implied no insurance. 



--

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: First Flight Prep

Just to repost a couple of threads, here are two write-ups I did with my transition training.  I know many of you have seen them in the past but this group has really grown over the past 6 months and I suspect there are alot new lurkers out there.  I use to have to check once per day and I'd have 10 e-mails, now if I don't check it every 3-4 hours, it is overwhelming.  That is a good thing.  

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=5265

 http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=7182



Just thought I'd give you an idea of what to expect with Mike.  I have heard nothing but good things from Alex as well.  Either one will be able to give you a good checkout.  



Scott Schmidt

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com



---

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: First Flight Prep

I don't know the interpretation of the rules exactly and I'm sure the decision would go to the Supreme Court, but I attended a forum on first flights at Oshkosh two years ago and the lecturer stated that according to the FAA there are no situations where a second person is legal in a plane like an RV-10 during the flight test phase.  I understand your argument if you read it word for word, but the answer must be in the reason that statement was made. He too had many people questioning his opinion.  I suppose that if you had your rudder pedals on the right and the stick on the left, you may be able to sneak that one by them.

(Maybe that would keep my wife awake on long flights)



Can anyone give an example of when it is legal?  The lecturer could not come up with a  situation when asked. I can't remember his name but he is the same guy that does it every year. 

 

Scott Schmidt



---

speckter(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:16 pm Post subject: First Flight Prep

When I expanded the CG envelope in my Glasair III, I received approval to take a second crew along to lift salt bags back as we did a series of stalls with continually farther aft CG and monitered recovery.  FSDO instructed me to log the purpose of the flight in the aircraft log and the reason for the second crew to keep it legal.  Again only one FSDO your mileage may vary.  

   

Gary  

40274  

Painting  

   

   

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt

 Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 6:52 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: First Flight Prep  

  

     

I don't know the interpretation of the rules exactly and I'm sure the decision would go to the Supreme Court, but I attended a forum on first flights at Oshkosh two years ago and the lecturer stated that according to the FAA there are no situations where a second person is legal in a plane like an RV-10 during the flight test phase.  I understand your argument if you read it word for word, but the answer must be in the reason that statement was made. He too had many people questioning his opinion.  I suppose that if you had your rudder pedals on the right and the stick on the left, you may be able to sneak that one by them.

 (Maybe that would keep my wife awake on long flights)

 

 Can anyone give an example of when it is legal?  The lecturer could not come up with a situation when asked. I can't remember his name but he is the same guy that does it every year.     

   

  

Scott Schmidt    

     

---

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: First Flight Prep

William, thank you for taking the bait, both hook,line and sinker.



My question was knowledge of any US certificated pilot performing Phase

One with additional bodies aboard.  The key to my obtuse riddle has been

resolved AD NASEUM with Warbirds (for years and impacts all US

Certificated aircraft and is not ever open to pilot interpretation.



SOLO flight is with only one human at risk.  A flight crewmember to be

allowed onboard must be written into the Operating Limitations of the

specific aircraft and then mandates the required use on all flights -

not just Phase One.  When Boeing or Bombardier operates under an

Experimental production certificate for initial testing,  They must

receive the authorization in writing and it becomes part of the

Operating Limitations during the life of that certificate. Once testing

is completed, they get a new airworthiness.



Many builders believe they hold the ultimate decision to ignore the reg.



I am still waiting to hear of a set of Operating Limitations for Amateur

built where Das Fed allowed in writing a second body to be placed at

risk.



Thanks for playing the bonus round.



John



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: First Flight Prep

Our rights are not subject to the Supreme Court as flying is a privilege granted by Congress to the Administration (the Executive) and passed down by the President to the Secretary of Transportation who then grants it to the FAA who uses an Administrative Judge with little right of appeal by us little people.  

   

That will change if we get a 2/3 passage of a Constitutional Amendment to allow RV-10 pilots to override the FAA and fly with two on a SOLO limitation.  

   

John  

         

  

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Schmidt

 Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 3:52 PM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: First Flight Prep  

  

     

I don't know the interpretation of the rules exactly and I'm sure the decision would go to the Supreme Court, but I attended a forum on first flights at Oshkosh two years ago and the lecturer stated that according to the FAA there are no situations where a second person is legal in a plane like an RV-10 during the flight test phase.  I understand your argument if you read it word for word, but the answer must be in the reason that statement was made. He too had many people questioning his opinion.  I suppose that if you had your rudder pedals on the right and the stick on the left, you may be able to sneak that one by them.

 (Maybe that would keep my wife awake on long flights)

 

 Can anyone give an example of when it is legal?  The lecturer could not come up with a situation when asked. I can't remember his name but he is the same guy that does it every year.     

   

  

Scott Schmidt    

     

---

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: First Flight Prep

OK, I bit.  A few folks have reported getting approval for second crew member on phase on, not-withstanding the requirements of the insurance company.  Further, this is dependant on the local FSDOs interpretation of the Advisory Circular (which are not binding regulations by the way)--so what did I win for this bonus round?



What's a "experimental production certificate?"  Now you are just making things up.  Not all aircraft developed by manufacturers go into nor are intended to go into production.  Regardless, how many test pilot do you think the Citation Mustang had during Phase One?  This aircraft is certified for single pilot operation.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 



------

ogdenk

Joined: 05 Feb 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Syracuse, NY

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:25 am Post subject: First Flight Prep

I have a data point to add to this discussion.  A local EAA chapter president, Frank Romeo, was killed last April on the maiden flight of his Lancair Legacy.  Unfortunately, he was not alone in the plane.  Bill Hodge, who helped him build, was in the right seat and also perished:

  

 http://www.eaachapter486.com/Legacytour1.htm

  

 http://www.oswego.edu/wtop/news/2007/04/plane-crash-in-oswego-county.html

  

 http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=cf791355-ba90-4caa-acfc-4276f7d91ef4

  

 A friend of mine who knew all involved told me that there was an FAA inspector (name unknown to me) present at the event.  I don't know if he was there in any official capacity or was just a friend of Franks, but one would hope that he wouldn't have allowed him to take a second soul on the maiden flight without reason.  My friend and a few others were in fact mad as hell that he didn't prevent him from doing this, at least one life would have been saved.

  

  

 Kent

  

 >>> "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> 11/19/07 11:00 PM >>>



 --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>



William, thank you for taking the bait, both hook,line and sinker.



My question was knowledge of any US certificated pilot performing Phase

One with additional bodies aboard.  The key to my obtuse riddle has been

resolved AD NASEUM with Warbirds (for years and impacts all US

Certificated aircraft and is not ever open to pilot interpretation.



SOLO flight is with only one human at risk.  A flight crewmember to be

allowed onboard must be written into the Operating Limitations of the

specific aircraft and then mandates the required use on all flights -

not just Phase One.  When Boeing or Bombardier operates under an

Experimental production certificate for initial testing,  They must

receive the authorization in writing and it becomes part of the

Operating Limitations during the life of that certificate. Once testing

is completed, they get a new airworthiness.



Many builders believe they hold the ultimate decision to ignore the reg.



I am still waiting to hear of a set of Operating Limitations for Amateur

built where Das Fed allowed in writing a second body to be placed at

risk.



Thanks for playing the bonus round.



John



--

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: First Flight Prep

Here is the link to the  NTSB. No fuel in the engine. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=NYC07LA094&rpt=p

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kent  Ogden

Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:24 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: First Flight  Prep

 I have a data point to add to this discussion.  A local EAA chapter  president, Frank Romeo, was killed last April on the maiden flight of his  Lancair Legacy.  Unfortunately, he was not alone in the plane.  Bill  Hodge, who helped him build, was in the right seat and also perished:

 http://www.eaachapter486.com/Legacytour1.htm

 http://www.oswego.edu/wtop/news/2007/04/plane-crash-in-oswego-county.html

 http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=cf791355-ba90-4caa-acfc-4276f7d91ef4

 A friend of mine who knew all involved told me that there was an FAA  inspector (name unknown to me) present at the event.  I don't  know if he was there in any official capacity or was just a friend of Franks,  but one would hope that he wouldn't have allowed him to take a second soul on  the maiden flight without reason.  My friend and a few others were in fact  mad as hell that he didn't prevent him from doing this, at least one life would  have been saved.

 Kent

 >>> "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> 11/19/07 11:00 PM  >>>

 --> RV10-List message posted by: "John W. Cox"  <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com>

William, thank you for taking the bait,  both hook,line and sinker.

My question was knowledge of any US  certificated pilot performing Phase

One with additional bodies aboard.   The key to my obtuse riddle has been

resolved AD NASEUM with Warbirds (for  years and impacts all US

Certificated aircraft and is not ever open to pilot  interpretation.

SOLO flight is with only one human at risk.  A  flight crewmember to be

allowed onboard must be written into the Operating  Limitations of the

specific aircraft and then mandates the required use on  all flights -

not just Phase One.  When Boeing or Bombardier operates  under an

Experimental production certificate for initial testing,  They  must

receive the authorization in writing and it becomes part of  the

Operating Limitations during the life of that certificate. Once  testing

is completed, they get a new airworthiness.

Many builders  believe they hold the ultimate decision to ignore the reg.

I am still  waiting to hear of a set of Operating Limitations for Amateur

built where Das  Fed allowed in writing a second body to be placed at

risk.

Thanks for  playing the bonus round.

John

--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:20 am Post subject: First Flight Prep

You won personal credit for bringing the definition of Solo to light or

more specifically not carrying any passengers during Phase One.  Section

13, paragraph e (1).



Until the Operating Limitations for Dan are published here on the RV-10

list, we are speculating that he was able to convince the FAA

Airworthiness Inspector he needed a named individual aboard during Phase

One.  One thing that is now fact is that there was no DAR involved.  The

Phase One was an FAA issuance.



Here is an attachment which is the exact language.  The italicized word

"strongly" are the FAAs - not mine.



I am patiently waiting to read specific Limitations which allow

additional crewmembers.  I am wagering Dan's was not one of them and his

primary flight area during Phase One did not include Florida.



What kind of certificate do you believe is carried aboard manufacturer

aircraft during their research and development phase before final

issuance of the Production TC and published guidelines of the TCDS?



Lets see a raising of hands as to which RV-10s of the 100+ flying

aircraft obtained written permission to carry passengers during Phase

One.  I'll bite - who?  Next I am going to hear about instruction

received too.



Joe Gauthier is the contact at EAA if you want their help in developing

a safe and effective Phase One testing program.



The addition of the weight and power increase of the turbo may have

triggered a second 40 hour Phase One after the initial period.



John



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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
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Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: First Flight Prep

oy vay!  Can someone translate the below message for me?



When did we make the jump from "required crew" to "passengers?"  I think EVERYONE knows passengers are NOT allowed.  This was never in question.



I specifically said in my first post that I was not going to comment on what Dan did or did not do, but you keep bringing it up.  I'll choose only to address your finger pointing and you making up regulations on the fly.



I started building my RV-10 because I got tired of A&Ps that made up regulations on the fly as a way to stick their hands in my pocket.  Obviously that is not your intention, but it seems a hard habit to break.  I got very good and separating actual regulations from the crap that they sometimes up with.  So I'm especially sensitive when someone on the forum spouts Truthiness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness) in the guise of regulations, weather I agree with it or not.  



Do you know what the "A" in AC stands for?  Do you know what the "R" in FAR stands for?  You seem to be confusing the two.



 	  Quote: 	
		   What kind of certificate do you believe is carried aboard manufacturer aircraft during their research and development phase before final issuance of the Production TC and published guidelines of the TCDS?


	


Maybe you need to brush up on you FARs.  Aircraft don't get production certificates, companies do.  Aircraft get type certificate or remain on an experimental certificate.  Just making up as you go, huh?

William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/ 

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ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject: First Flight Prep

William,



You need to get out the the North East, Oy Vay! Does not fit you!!! lol....



Rick Sked

40185

do not archive

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