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falcon43

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 23

Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: coverings

Since reading this info on Stewart system coatings for dacron , I looked 

at their site. I really like the idea of safer material,. All others are 

potentially toxic.   Even Stewart Systems needs precautions they 

mention. My question is to those who have used Steweart System and other 

systems is how time consuming is Stewarts? Filler coat up to four and 

top coat 5 or more. Seems like a lot of work. I have researched a lot 

and am trying to decide my first project. Hipec was the simplest , 

strongest etc . I talked to a few users and saw a plane which looked 

very good after 15 yrs. However the toxicity is my concern. I would need 

a full independent breathing system etc. Not in the cards for my Avid. 

Any advice.

Harry Cieslar,Goderich, Ontario, Avid Magnum Project

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:59 am Post subject: coverings

I think the number of coats is similar to the others, 2-2.5 cross coats of 

the final finish. I figured there were less total coats than Poly and about 

the same as Hipec.  The starting point is to obtain the reference materials 

for all the systems you are considering. I think all three are fine systems, 

there is also the Loehle Aero coatings and others. I simply mentioned the 

Stewart one because it is the one I chose and I'm happy with it.



Actually my Model IV is a mongrel in finishing, The fuselage is polythane 

which will have 3 small Stewart finished patches.   The wings are Stewart 

systems, but the ribs were primed with Poly epoxy varnish. I'll be 

recovering the fuselage at some point and it will be all Stewart (more MEK 

to wipe all the polybrush off)



Harry, if you want I may be able to fix you up with some reference material 

for the Stewart System, contact me off list if it will help you.



Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582

do not archive

---

andynfultz(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: coverings

Harry,



  I don't think that the Stewart Systems process is any more time consuming

than any other.  In fact there's fewer steps in the Stewart process than

there are in other processes.  There is very little time between coats.  On

the bigger pieces, by the time you reach the end of one coat you start back

at the beginning with the next coat.  You really should get in touch with

Doug and/or Dan Stewart and have a talk with them.  They are very helpful.

They have a set of DVD's that will walk you through the process and you can

see for yourself just how easy it is.  The Stewart System is pretty amazing.



Andy Fultz



--

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: coverings

List,



I like the idea of a safer material as well, but a quick look at the MSDS on 

MEK http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/BU/2-butanone.html  doesn't convince me 

that the "old stand" by Polyfiber system is that much of a risk regarding 

health.  Yes, it has a strong smell, but with the exception of that it is 

fairly harmless with proper ventilation.  In fact that reminds me of 

something my dad told me once - PhD Chemistry.  Hydrogen Sulfide is much 

more toxic than Hydrogen Cyanide.  The fact that we don't hear much about 

exposure problems is because it smells so bad it drives the potential victim 

to fresh air.  A full breathing system for MEK based systems is way over 

kill in my opinion, just open the door or maybe a couple of doors.  I would 

think that working with it in an enclosed work space there would be much 

more risk due to the possibility of explosion and fire and that alone would 

prompt me to open the doors to my hangar, shut off the pilot lights etc. and 

just be prudent.



My now deceased Model IV was Polyfiber covered and finished with Aerothane 

and based on durability reports on some of the water based systems, my next 

airplane will be Polyfiber and Aerothane.  I did use a respirator for the 

Aerothane, but a one off project is much different than a career of covering 

airplanes.  Again my opinion.  I know some used a fresh air system and I 

respect that decision. I know they do in the Kitfox factory, but again that 

is a production facility with painting going on regularly with the 

possibility of chronic build up of toxicity.



I do apapreciate the pioneers though.  What we really need are more guys 

willing to branch out and then report results.  Then we will have assembled 

a data base that will help all that will follow to make informed decisions.



Lowell



---

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: coverings

Lowell Fitt wrote:



"...my next airplane will be Polyfiber and Aerothane."



There is going to be a next airplane.  These are good news!!!  My best wishes for both you and your wife.



José

ex Kitfox II/582

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Make Yahoo! your homepage.

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vadert(at)telusplanet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: coverings

Harry



    I covered my Classic IV with one coat of Hipec Sun Barrier put on with a 

foam roller, let dry for a couple of days, then scuff sanded and one coat of 

sprayed on finish.  The finish I used was Dupont Imron 4.3 HG.  Low 

volatiles, one part, spay on, water cleanup, unlinked polyurethane.  I used 

a cotton mask.  Finish was touch dry in 20 minutes. I've had a piece stapled 

to the fence outside for 2 years with no obvious damage.



Tim Vader

Classic IV

Subaru/ Soon to be VW

 ---

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: coverings

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Jose M. Toro [jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com]

 There is going to be a next airplane.  These are good news!!!  

 My best wishes for both you and your wife.


	


And let me join José in wishing you and Kay the very best, Lowell! This is the message we have been waiting for. You will be building again!



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

do not archive

<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

KITFOXZ(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: coverings

In a message dated 11/21/2007 12:36:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  List,



I like the idea of a safer material as well, but a quick    look at the MSDS on 

MEK    http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/BU/2-butanone.html  doesn't convince me    

that the "old stand" by Polyfiber system is that much of a risk regarding    

health.  Yes, it has a strong smell, but with the exception of that    it is 

fairly harmless with proper ventilation.  In fact that reminds    me of 

something my dad told me once - PhD Chemistry.  Hydrogen    Sulfide is much 

more toxic than Hydrogen Cyanide.  The fact that we    don't hear much about 

exposure problems is because it smells so bad it    drives the potential victim 

to fresh air.  A full breathing system    for MEK based systems is way over 

kill in my opinion, just open the door    or maybe a couple of doors.  I would 

think that working with it in an    enclosed work space there would be much 

more risk due to the possibility    of explosion and fire and that alone would 

prompt me to open the doors to    my hangar, shut off the pilot lights etc. and 

just be prudent.



My    now deceased Model IV was Polyfiber covered and finished with Aerothane    

and based on durability reports on some of the water based systems, my    next 

airplane will be Polyfiber and Aerothane.  I did use a    respirator for the 

Aerothane, but a one off project is much different than    a career of covering 

airplanes.  Again my opinion.  I know some    used a fresh air system and I 

respect that decision. I know they do in the    Kitfox factory, but again that 

is a production facility with painting    going on regularly with the 

possibility of chronic build up of    toxicity.



I do apapreciate the pioneers though.  What we really    need are more guys 

willing to branch out and then report results.     Then we will have assembled 

a data base that will help all that will    follow to make informed decisions.



Lowell

	


 

 Hello Lowell,

  

 I have been on the Kitfox List for many  years. Still too busy to build right now, currently I lurk from time  to time.  Several years ago on The List we hashed over the issues  concerning MEK.  In fact we covered MEK from all possible  angles.  

  

 I have the greatest respect and admiration for  you Lowell but, it troubles me to see your words: "Yes,  it has a strong smell, but with the exception of that it is fairly harmless with  proper ventilation."  You also  wrote:  "A full breathing system for MEK based systems is way over  kill in my opinion, just open the door or maybe a couple of  doors." 

  

 I mean no malice to you Lowell, nor do I want to  embarrass you in any way.  I just want you and others on The List to err on  the safe side when it comes to working with MEK.  I don't have a can of MEK  in front of me right now but, I am sure it still warns about the fact that MEK  is accumulative in your body tissues.  The body cannot rid itself  of MEK.  It can cause permanent brain, nervous system, kidney and  liver damage.

  

 Don't misunderstand me, I like the properties of  MEK based covering and paint products for aircraft and I plan to use it to cover  my Fox.  But, I will use a full fresh air protection system for  my eyes and lungs and gloves on my hands.

  

 I wrote the following letter in '96 to EAA  chapter 292 and shared it with The List at that time.  It is self  explanatory. 

  

 

Dear chapter 292 members:

  

 

My name is John Marzluf and I thoroughly love aviation!  When a  bird lands on a tree branch, a cat will crouch down and study it carefully,  twitching itâ€™s tail to and fro, eyes big and focused, wellâ€¦ that cat is  me!  I have been eating, drinking, and sleeping aviation my whole  life.  You know what I am talking about, itâ€™s in your blood, itâ€™s in your  very soul!

  

 I am building a Kitfox (sheâ€™s a series five tail dragger with a Rotax 912S)  and I belong to the Internet billboard list group for fellow Kitfox  builders.  Here we post building and flying questions, opinions, and so  forth for all to see.

  

 Your chapter newsletter editor, Mike Pongracz, saw a posting that I made to  my Kitfox List members concerning the safe use of aviation chemicals.  He  asked me to repeat it here for everyone to read:

  

  

  

 My younger brother, Tom grew up with the same aviation enthusiasm that I  did.  Dad was a WW 11 Naval Aviator flying PBY5A Catalinas. (I still think  the PBY is the most graceful war bird ever built)  We all built model  aircraft of all sorts.

  

 I served in the United States Marine Corps from 1970 to 1980 working as an  avionics technician.  While in Japan in 1975, I sent Tom his first radio  control system and an airplane kit with the promise that as soon as I got home  on leave, we would build and fly it together.  Tom was 12 or 13 at the  time.  When I got home, boy was I surprised!  Not only did he have it  built and flying, but he had already cut the wing in half and rejoined it with  no dihedral so that it would roll better.

  

 I finished my days working for Uncle Sam and went home for good in July  1980.

Tom was building bigger, better, and faster airplanes and dreaming  about building a full scale some day.  We talked about pooling our time and  money for a Cub or Champ project.  He graduated from High school and  enrolled in the local community college aviation technology program.  A  couple of years later he earned his A&P license.  I tell you the kid  was in hog heaven!

  

 Our new A&P got a job right away working for a local aircraft service  group.  He honed his skills in every phase of aviation maintenance and soon  gained the respect of many for his fine work.

  

 The spring of 1991 found him working for the largest aviation maintenance  group in our area.  He worked evening shift with the responsibilities of  continuing the round the clock progress of annuals or engine changes or  emergency repairs.  His group had contracts with several of the non-hub  airlines to do emergency troubleshooting for flights that would have to cancel  without an A&Pâ€™s sign off.  The job was stressful at times and he  started to tell me about his heartburn problems.

  

 Some evenings I would stop by the hanger to visit for a few minutes (had to  get my hands on a birdâ€¦ feel itâ€™s cold metallic skin).  Tom would be  tearing down a fuel injection system and soaking the pieces in the parts washing  tub with MEK (Methyl Ethyl Keytone).  He would scrub the parts with a brush  and bare hands and then blow them all clean and dry with shop air.  MEK is  great for this because it will cut through almost any deposit and dry residue  free.  I can still see the gleam in his eye as he hooked up each injector  to the test bench and watched it produce that perfect conical spray  pattern.

  

 Other nights I would walk in through the hanger door and be hit with a wall  of MEK fumes, while Tom did one of the things he liked best, the repair of  hanger rash on spinners, wingtips, wheel pants, etc.  He wiped the work  down with an MEK soaked rag, filled and sanded as necessary, a final MEK wipe  down before painting, and then of course the clean up of all spray equipment  with, you guessed it, MEK.  All of the hanger exhaust fans were running but  what a stench this all made.  At quitting time he would wash up first with  MEK at the parts wash tub and then with some skin conditioning cleaner to  replace some of the moisture in his hands.  MEK is great to clean those  dirty fingernails of all of that black grease!

  

 He confided in me in the summer of 1991 that he found the airline emergency  calls to be very stressful (holding a 737 full of late passengers and an angry  flight crew to be sure their bird was air worthy).  He said the heartburn  was getting to be a real problem and that over the counter antacids didnâ€™t work  much anymore.

  

 The smell of avgas used to make his day, he said, but now he found he  couldnâ€™t stomach it any more.  Filling his car gas tank made him sick, he  would stick his nose in his sleeve and squeeze the trigger hard to get it over  with.  Driving behind a city bus was impossible without a dry heave or  two.

  

 I told him to see a doctor and stop eating those Beanie Weenies out of the  snack machine at work.  The heartburn persisted and one night he left the  hanger and went to the emergency room with his throat â€œOn fire!â€.

The doctors  ran some tests and finally agreed that he may have an ulcer starting up.   They gave him some antacid medication to take and he said it worked great!  

  

 The fall of 1991 was bad for us.  Tom wanted to sleep a lot and had no  interest in our airplane fun anymore.  His belly was getting big and we  joked about whose was the biggest. 

  

 The winter of 1991-92 was terrible.  I looked at my little brother and  saw a young man with sunken dark circles under his eyes and a thinning face that  was way out of character for him.  His belly was too large for anyone to  mistake it for a beer gut, and it was lopsided on the right side!  This was  a guy who two years before, was doing handstands on a skateboard going down a  sidewalk hill.  We got him into the doctor and they did a biopsy right  away.  The test results took a couple of days.

  

 On April foolsâ€™ day 1992 the doctor came into his hospital room and said:  â€œI have bad news.â€  We all figured it could be bad like cancer or something  and that some treatment would soon follow.  Tom, always the jokester and  sci-fi movie buff said: â€œLay it on me doc, I can go flat-line for  awhile!â€.  The doctor said: â€œI have very bad newsâ€.  He kept  apologizing to us for having to tell us this.  Tom wiped the smile off his  face.  The biopsy tests showed that Tomâ€™s liver was destroyed by Mucin  producing Adeno Carcinoma.  That meant that the cancer cells produce a  liquid buffer around them as they grow and his liver was an ever-growing sponge  like mass of cancer.  No treatment would reverse it or cure him.  His  liver was swelling to enormous proportions.

  

 The doctor said that his liver may have become cancerous from a blood borne  contaminate or maybe there was some primary cancer site that sent the cancer to  his liver through his vascular system.  He suggested some tests that could  be done to see if there was a primary site somewhere.  This seemed to give  us some hope.  The plan was to do a complete gastrointestinal study and to  prep for that; he had to cleanse his system that night by drinking a gallon of  â€œGo lightlyâ€ to flush his system out.  The doctors would scope him in the  morning.

  

 Guys, I spent ten years in the United States Marine Corps working on our  fine Naval Aircraft.  I was a real man in my little brotherâ€™s eyes, but I  wish more than anything else that I could re-live the night of April 1st  1992.  I was the last one to leave his room that night.  He poured  himself a tall glass of that Go Lightly, raised it to me and said: â€œCheers  mate!â€ in his pretend Aussie accent.

  

 I turned away to hide my burning eyes, tried to swallow an apple sized lump  in my throat and somehow managed to say â€œSee ya later manâ€.  I stormed out  of his room like Judas himself and ran down the hall to the private safety of my  truck.  You canâ€™t know how much I regret those few minutes.  I so wish  we could have stayed up together that night pouring drinks for each other over  and over, pretending to be getting drunk like a couple of old war aces.   Instead, he stayed up that night drinking that horrible stuff all alone!

  

 Sarah, Tom and Doreenâ€™s daughter was born that month sixteen days  later.  Tom was with his wife through 22 hours of labor before the doctor  decided to do a caesarian.  The Morphine got him through that I  guess.

  

 May was a blur and June had us all taking shifts to watch over him as he  lay in the spare bedroom at momâ€™s house.  We pushed the bed against the  wall and I slept on the floor during my shift beside his bed so that if he got  up in the night, he would have to step on me to get out of the room.  We  couldnâ€™t allow him to roam around and hurt himself in the night.  The  morphine was turning him into a monster.  Strange to think back on it all  now and remember how being stepped on was such an honor to me at the time.

  

 My beloved little brother Tommy passed away early in the morning of his  30th birthday, June 19th 1992 with all of us at his bedside.  He is buried  in our family plot beside Dad and I am just sure that they are skimming a  heavenly lake somewhere, cranking on the flap handle, trying to get that PBY up  on itâ€™s step.

  

 Tom's widow, myself, and the rest of the family, were too grief stricken to  have my little brother's body autopsied.  Many questions remain unanswered  to this day.  Although no conclusive study has yet been conducted to prove  a solid link between MEK and liver cancer, MEK and other aviation chemicals are  known to cause irreversible damage to the liver, brain, and nervous system if  not used correctly and safely.  Use a fresh air-supplied-mask and  hood.  These chemicals will get into your blood and tissues through your  skin, lungs, and even your eyes.  Your body cannot deal with them.   Please build and fly safely.  I sure wish Tom could be here to see my  Fox.

I know he would twitch his tail watching all of your birds!

  

 Sincerely,

  

 John P. Marzluf

Kitfoxz(at)aol.com (Kitfoxz(at)aol.com)





Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.

  [quote][b]

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: coverings

I don't believe that MEK is quite as deadly as some believe, although 

caution and ventilation is clearly advised. This link will take you to the 

best information I have seen on the matter.



http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/mek/health_mek.html



Anyone reading the sheet will notice the advice about it being a fairly 

powerful irritant to the eyes. I think reactions are likely to vary somewhat 

from person to person. I appear to be more sensitive for some reason, even a 

fairly short exposure leaves my eyes feeling extremely dry and irritated, 

and it lasts for days. Sort of like an eyeful of sand.  It's quite 

worthwhile for me to avoid it but nobody else I know has the problem to 

anything close to the same degree.



Shifting between the two systems has given me the opportunity to try two in 

short succession and I feel the Stewarts is much easier to use. However as 

Lowell points out, longevity is unknown at this point.

Dave Goddard- Mod IV 1050/582

do not archive

Bob

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Damascus, Maryland, USA

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: coverings

John, I am really sorry to hear about losing your brother.  In the "bad old days" we never took toxicity seriously and loved the smells of gas, MEK, and lots of other really bad stuff.  As young A&Ps 30-40 years ago, we'd use stinky stuff all day and then smell like it all night, using skin lotion for dried out skin.  It sounds like your brother was an extreme case, but your message is sound.  Thanks!



Fortunately, as somebody else mentioned, the non-contact cure is easy through ventilation and frequent glove replacement.  I won't use PolyFiber in the house, but have no hesitation in using it out in a hangar or the garage or shed - with the doors open and usually with a fan running.  I just think that we've learned and adapted.  Obviously, once applied the way even close to how it should be, the stuff is well-known, darn near  bullet proof, and easy to repair.  Those are important qualities in a covering that should last 20+ years.



I looked seriously at Stewart and started calling recovering shops.  I won't give out any names, you'll have to do your own homework.  The Van's RV guys swear by the Stewart metal finishing products for their interiors and there were two conclusions that I came to. First, all of the fabric covering systems come to within a few hundred dollars when you're really done.  Second bottom line was that applied absolutely correctly, kept in a hangar, and away from contaminates, Stewart's fabric covering can look great and last a long time, but it's not for me.  I did talk to some very happy Stewart-systems owners, such as Kansas City Dawn Patrol guys.  However...  



I'm an A&P and started calling recovering shops to talk to mechanics with personal experience and less emotion about "their" airplanes.  There are some that have used it more than once and won't touch it again. I was told by at least two shop owners in different parts of the country that they found the coating failed where avgas spills made somewhat regular contact and that they couldn't get new coats to both adhere and/or look right unless the fabric was replaced.  One of the western shop owners said that he had to recover all of one airplane due to staining of the belly and coating coming off the wings.  Both mentioned partial recover of two or three (my lack of notes) other airplanes.  I also heard from them and some owners that wear areas around doors and such became a problem as the coating didn't seem as "hard" or durable as PolyFiber or epoxy coatings. As much as I like the water-base idea, I personally stopped looking at Stewart for fabric, although I'll probably go with it for metal interior parts.  I also heard good things about their very expensive paint that's for high temps.  BTW, the ag-operators have gone almost 100% epoxy, but they really require health precautions (forced air and full Tyvek suits) that I don't want to go to.  I'm just recommending that you talk to as many owners as possible before making a long-term commitment to any system.



Lowell, I am really happy to hear that there's another 'fox in you.  Too bad that you're not closer, as I'd make you a good deal on my Vixen project.  Not actively trying to sell it yet, but think I came across a flying airplane that is looking too cheap to pass up and the wife has a "one set of wings" rule.  (when Momma's happy...)



Bob

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andynfultz(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:02 am Post subject: coverings

I would

think that working with it in an enclosed work space there would be much

more risk due to the possibility of explosion and fire and that alone would

prompt me to open the doors to my hangar, shut off the pilot lights etc. and

just be prudent.



Lowell,



  There's another benefit of the Stewart System.  Your above concern is not

a concern with the Stewart System.  Keep the fires burning and work on!



Andy F.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: coverings

Why take the chance with the MEK??  If using rubber gloves and a full air

supplied helmet is overkill at least it is overkill that will err on the

side of safety.



Noel



[quote] --

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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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