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recapen(at)earthlink.net
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 Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? |
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I heard a story the other day about removing ethanol from your car gas before using it in your plane.....no I haven't done this - I'm not even flying yet......
Based on the test to detect ethanol in your car gas.....
The ethanol absorbs the water that is poured in for the test and has a different specific gravity than the remaining fuel and 'layers' out. If you use more water than the ethanol can absorb, it 'layers' out too. Theoretically, take a large quantity of gasohol (or whatever it's called these days), pour in a bunch of water, let it settle, sump it out like you would if you were trying to get a few drops of water out of your airplane fuel tanks (of course - more to be safe), and go fly with the rest as the ethanol has been removed.
I'm not a petroleum engineer - I deal with trons.....but I would think that they call it blending for a reason - as in it shouldn't come apart that easy!
I guess if someone did this and tested the remainder for ethanol and didn't find any - it could (?) be safe to use.
Someone tell me I've had too much to drink tonite! Or, better yet, someone with a petroleum engineering background tell us it'll work - then all we need to do is settle out a bunch of gas and not worry about how much corn they put in it.
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archie97(at)earthlink.net
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? |
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We have been racing with both ethanol and methanol for years, and have not
heard of this.
As they are both hydroscopic, I do not see how they can layer out.
The only way I know of is through distillation.
Archie
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leesafur
Joined: 26 Nov 2006
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:23 am Post subject: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? |
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Ethanol absorbs water. If it absorbs enough water it changes the density and falls to the bottom of the tank. In the industry we call this phase separation. Trust me you don’t want to do this. I've been to many gas stations that has gotten water in there tank. Most times they have to get rid of all the gas in the tank because it changes the octane rating and the gas is no good.
Lee
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JOHN TIPTON
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 239
Location: Torquay - England
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? |
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It is a fact that Ethanol, will ' layer out' when mixed with water - here in
the UK, some engines can run on 'Mogas' (Automotive fuel - we call petrol)
however only some of these fuels have ethanol in, (I think the ethanol is
being added for environmental reasons) now because the ethanol 'attracts
water, these fuels (petrol) should not be used, the test is to mix (in a
test tube or similar container)10 parts of your fuel with one part water,
and shake the bottle, when it settles and you have a ratio of more than the
10per cent water, you have an ethanol in your fuel, now how this can be
removed from you fuel supply is another matter.
John
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glcasey
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:50 am Post subject: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? |
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I also am not a fuel expert, but offer the following opinions, FWIW:
1. The only reason ethanol has appeared in auto fuel is the
government subsidies. In some states, fuel is exempt from certain
taxes if it has at least 15% ethanol(E15) - that makes the gasoline
portion cheaper as well, which is why you see only 15% and no more.
Ethanol is still more expensive to produce than petroleum fuel on a
per gallon basis. The greeners argue that it is "carbon neutral" but
conveniently forget that it takes about 80% as much (petroleum)
energy to make it as you get out. The number for petroleum fuel is
about 10%. When you burn 1 energy-equivalent gallon of ethanol you
are actually burning about 1.8 gallons, but when you burn 1 gallon of
gasoline you are actually burning 1.1 gallons.
2. Ethanol, like methanol, has a higher octane rating than normal
unleaded or leaded fuel, so it raises the octane rating of the
blend. That's the good thing.
3. On the other hand, ethanol has about 60% the heating value of
petroleum fuel. An engine burning E15 will burn about 6% more fuel
to go the same distance. By the same token, a carburetor set for
gasoline will be running something like 5% leaner with E15. This
could affect the cooling, if not the detonation margin of an aircraft
engine since they are usually calibrated to run richer than best
power on takeoff. If the engine wasn't originally calibrated at
least 5% rich it could affect the takeoff power, but I doubt it. I
believe for cars the (politician's) idea is that the consumer "won't
notice" a 5% increase in fuel consumption, but of course they will,
as a total population.
4. Because ethanol has a higher heat of vaporization than gasoline,
you will get slightly more evaporative cooling which will increase
the power slightly. The downside of this is that you might have a
greater propensity for icing if the increased cooling compensates for
the ability of the ethanol to dissolve the water and ice. I think
the situation gets worse, not better.
5. Yes, the ethanol will attack certain rubbers and is more
corrosive to metals that pure gasoline. Can the materials be changed
to allow running E15? Sure, but who's going to pay for the effort
and guarantee(certify) the results?
6. Except for the increased potential for carburetor icing, E15 will
have less propensity to freeze, not more, as it will hold the
absorbed water in solution.
Overall, it might be easier, as Ralph suggests, to find ways to live
with E15 than get it out of the fuel. I don't have any idea if you
could pull it out of solution by adding water, but I doubt it. While
developing sensors to measure alcohol concentration we've done
experiments with adding water and when we add more water that can be
absorbed as best we can tell what comes out of solution is just
water, not the alcohol. What is left in the solution is
approximately 80% gasoline, 15% alcohol and 5% water. Once the water
gets in I don't know of an easy way to get it out. For that reason
the automotive OEMs are considering higher pressure gas caps with a
vacuum capability so that there is less "breathing" during
temperature cycles in an attempt to keep out the moisture. And E85
"flex fuel" vehicles use all stainless steel fuel system components.
Gary Casey
On Nov 25, 2007, at 11:56 PM, LycomingEngines-List Digest Server wrote:
| Quote: |
Time: 08:53:11 AM PST US
From: "Ralph Finch" <rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Removing Ethanol from
your car-gas?
The flip side of this question is, what exactly is bad about having
ethanol
in aviation gasoline? In other words, can we design and build our
experimental airplanes so they use modern auto fuel as-is?
As an owner of an Alon Aircoupe with an autofuel STC--long before
ethanol
was added--I've heard of these problems:
* Ethanol is very corrosive to some materials, including seals and
some
metals?
* Ethanol readily absorbs water (or vice-versa), so the fuel could
then
freeze easier (not in the tanks, but easier carb icing and perhaps
in fuel
lines).
* Ethanol's unit heat energy is less than gasoline so you'll get less
performance.
* Any others?
Obviously autos have solved the corrosion problem, can't we do the
same with
our experimentals? Greater propensity to freeze (if true, not sure
about
this) could be handled with fuel injection and maybe insulated fuel
lines
behind the firewall. Lack of performance is probably modest and
not a great
concern.
Ralph Finch
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AV8ORJWC
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: Removing Ethanol from your car-gas? |
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AOPA (or EAA - I can't remember) sent an alert to the Oregon Pilots
Association that a recent Oregon State legislative ruling mandates
higher content of ethanol in Oregon MOGAS. The result as stated by the
EAA is that the Peterson STC to use MOGAS is no longer valid and will
cause individuals operating under such an STC some real operational and
economic pain. It becomes an issue for out of state pilots traversing
our "Progressive" state.
Secondly, Dave Martin, former editor of Kitplanes and the President of
OPA (2007) stated that most of the Rotax powered (not Lycoming) LSAs
would suffer as a result of Oregon's recent legislative alteration.
I am considering asking Monty Barrett to do engine runs with the
IO-540D4A5 with 50% AVGAS, 50% E-85 Greenie MOGAS as a quantitative
baseline.
What do you think? Many states are looking at Oregon's Left of the West
Coast liberal legislative efforts. I will learn more at the OPA
management retreat this weekend and will post what I hear.
John Cox
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