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Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:48 am Post subject: Proseal fuel tanks |
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Another option you might want to consider is building a WET wing Vans builds all there wing tanks this way and it really isn't that tough. If you build a wet wing you would rivet the leading edge to the wing then mark the leading edge about 1 inch from each rib between the tank area then cut the leading edge add a solid rib to each side leaving about an inch lip and a solid back with about a 2 inch lip upper and lower. You would add a couple of ribs inside the tank for extra strength add your vent, filler cap and sender and seal. You would then take a piece of .032 and rivet one side to the LE that you left before cutting the tank out and add plate nuts to the other side to attach the tank to. You would also add plate nuts to the spar angle that the LE would have been riveted to then simply slide the tank in and screw her down.
I wouldn't take the time to fabricate a wing tank inside something that could already be used as a wing tank not to mention if you were to ever get a leak the trouble you would have getting it out. You can also find rivets that we use to repair leaking tanks that do not have a hole in the bottom of them so when you pull them you only need to seal the base of the rivet and not the hole. I will find out where to get these and post it. If you decide to build a wet wing you must use a dremal tool to cut it so you don't have a huge gap. This has been ok'd by Zenith also.
Jeff
In a message dated 11/26/2007 7:46:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bretttdc(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | Andy,
If you are going to rivet and proseal or flame seal your tanks there can not be any "big" gaps. All the seams need to fit tight and be riveted down so all surfaces are touching. Of course there will be small pin holes in the corners and tiny gaps between the joints. The sealer will fill those. If you have large gaps of say more than 1/32 of an inch thick you should consider another row of rivets or some other measure to close them mechanically. Maybe you could trim back the flange and use a piece of standard "L" to close the gap.
The poly sulfide sealers form a tenacious bond between the aluminum parts. The sealer itself is quite tough but I would not trust it to fill large gaps. I used this construction method on my 701 tanks and believe they are a lot stronger than the welded version made by Zenith. I was able to incorporate two baffles in each tank. These baffles make the tank much stronger structurally. I did redesign the tanks making them the same size overall but all the flanges on the ends are turned in reverse of the standard welded tanks. This allowed me to incorporate a larger mating surface while slightly increasing the capacity of the tank as well. If you use pop rivets they will all have to be sealed on the exterior of the tank as well.
To give yourself a little confidence in the strength of the bond you should rivet up some test seams when you are sealing the tanks. Rivet them as you would any other seam of the tank. Give the entire assembly several weeks to cure, especially in cold weather. Then drill out the rivets on the test pieces and try to break the bond of the sealer alone. You will be surprised at how strong the sealer is. I could not separate the bond on my samples. The aluminum tore first.
You must be absolutely sure the the aluminum is clean. That means clean; not kinda clean. I started the cleaning by scrubbing the parts in hot water using dish washing soap then flushing with hot water. I repeated this process three times. Then I wiped down the joints with MEK. Good idea to do this on a sunny day if possible. I did this cleaning process after all the fabrication and deburing had been done. Do not blow dry the parts with compressed air because there may be a little oil mist in the spray. If needed a blow drier or heat gun might work well. Once the parts are clean be sure you wear latex or nitril gloves when handling the parts. The oil from your skin could possibly cause problems in the bond. These sealers are messy and the gloves will simplify the clean up process.
I mixed mine using a 10:1 ratio of sealer to hardener. A electronic scale works great for measuring the parts. Put the scale in a clear plastic bag before using it and you will not need to worry about getting it dirty. Scrap aluminum that has been cleaned makes a great mixing pallet and spatula. Just throw it away with the gloves between batches. Remember, you are looking for a great seal and not a pretty finish. None of this will be seen when the plane is done so if you have a smear or two out of place relax. Perfect means no leaks and sound joints.
Be aware that there are people that swear that it is unsafe to use this sealer on tanks using auto fuel. Other people will tell you that it is OK to use auto fuel in these tanks. I have been soaking one of my sample bonds in premium auto fuel inside a mason jar for about two years now. I have seen no softening in the bond. Who is right? You tell me. My next plane will have tanks sealed with poly sulfide sealer as well. They make good sense. Check out the Vans website. They have the best deal on the material.
FYI I had a problematic leak in a polyethylene black water holding tank on my motor home. I think that is why it was up for sale so cheap. I drained the tank and scrubbed the area with Tide and a plastic brush. After rinsing well I allowed the area to dry a few days. Then I mixed up the leftover sealer I had stored in the fridge eighteen months earlier. After careful application with a paint mixing stick I allowed the assembly to sit one week. To this day those tanks are as good as new. Pretty incredible stuff.
Brett
Subject: Fuel tank sealing
From: "ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org>
I think I'm going to use Pro-Seal or whatever it is Dave Clay
recommended to seal
up my tanks, which means I'm riveting them.
Anyway, I made my tanks per the Zenith plans and now that I have it
partially assembled
I'm looking at that huge gap at the full length seam side where the
skin
joins itself. That reverse bend makes for one big unnecessary gap (see
picture).
Has anyone else made the tanks per the plans, gotten that, to be
expected
gap, and had luck with the sealer taking care of that gap?
| Quote: |
://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
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| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Proseal fuel tanks |
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I'm still going to give you a call when I get a chance, but do you have some pix of what a tank looks like going together? I'm kind of confused as to how you finally close the thing up and where that cover goes and how big it is. Sounds interesting though.
[quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]Another option you might want to consider is building a WET wing Vans builds all there wing tanks this way and it really isn't that tough. If you build a wet wing you would rivet the leading edge to the wing then mark the leading edge about 1 inch from each rib between the tank area then cut the leading edge add a solid rib to each side leaving about an inch lip and a solid back with about a 2 inch lip upper and lower. You would add a couple of ribs inside the tank for extra strength add your vent, filler cap and sender and seal. You would then take a piece of .032 and rivet one side to the LE that you left before cutting the tank out and add plate nuts to the other side to attach the tank to. You would also add plate nuts to the spar angle that the LE would have been riveted to then simply slide the tank in and screw her down.
I wouldn't take the time to fabricate a wing tank inside something that could already be used as a wing tank not to mention if you were to ever get a leak the trouble you would have getting it out. You can also find rivets that we use to repair leaking tanks that do not have a hole in the bottom of them so when you pull them you only need to seal the base of the rivet and not the hole. I will find out where to get these and post it. If you decide to build a wet wing you must use a dremal tool to cut it so you don't have a huge gap. This has been ok'd by Zenith also.
Jeff
In a message dated 11/26/2007 7:46:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, bretttdc(at)yahoo.com writes:
| Quote: | Andy,
If you are going to rivet and proseal or flame seal your tanks there can not be any "big" gaps. All the seams need to fit tight and be riveted down so all surfaces are touching. Of course there will be small pin holes in the corners and tiny gaps between the joints. The sealer will fill those. If you have large gaps of say more than 1/32 of an inch thick you should consider another row of rivets or some other measure to close them mechanically. Maybe you could trim back the flange and use a piece of standard "L" to close the gap.
The poly sulfide sealers form a tenacious bond between the aluminum parts. The sealer itself is quite tough but I would not trust it to fill large gaps. I used this construction method on my 701 tanks and believe they are a lot stronger than the welded version made by Zenith.? I was able to incorporate two baffles in each tank. These baffles make the tank much stronger structurally. I did redesign the tanks making them the same size overall but all the flanges on the ends are turned in reverse of the standard welded tanks. This allowed me to incorporate a larger mating surface while slightly increasing the capacity of the tank as well. If you use pop rivets they will all have to be sealed on the exterior of the tank as well.
To give yourself a little confidence in the strength of the bond you should rivet up some test seams when you are sealing the tanks. Rivet them as you would any other seam of the tank. Give the entire assembly several weeks to cure, especially in cold weather. Then drill out the rivets on the test pieces and try to break the bond of the sealer alone. You will be surprised at how strong the sealer is. I could not separate the bond on my samples. The aluminum tore first.
You must be absolutely sure the the aluminum is clean. That means clean; not kinda clean. I started the cleaning by scrubbing the parts in hot water using dish washing soap then flushing with hot water. I repeated this process three times. Then I wiped down the joints with MEK. Good idea to do this on a sunny day if possible. I did this cleaning process after all the fabrication and deburing had been done. Do not blow dry the parts with compressed air because there may be a little oil mist in the spray. If needed a blow drier or heat gun might work well. Once the parts are clean be sure you wear latex or nitril gloves when handling the parts. The oil from your skin could possibly cause problems in the bond. These sealers are messy and the gloves will simplify the clean up process.
I mixed mine using a 10:1 ratio of sealer to hardener. A electronic scale works great for measuring the parts. Put the scale in a clear plastic bag before using it and you will not need to worry about getting it dirty. Scrap aluminum that has been cleaned makes a great mixing pallet and spatula. Just throw it away with the gloves between batches.? Remember, you are looking for a great seal and not a pretty finish. None of this will be seen when the plane is done so if you have a smear or two out of place relax. Perfect means no leaks and sound joints.
Be aware that there are people that swear that it is unsafe to use this sealer on tanks using auto fuel. Other people will tell you that it is OK to use auto fuel in these tanks. I have been soaking one of my sample bonds in premium auto fuel inside a mason jar for about two years now. I have seen no softening in the bond. Who is right? You tell me. My next plane will have tanks sealed with poly sulfide sealer as well. They make good sense. Check out the Vans website. They have the best deal on the material.
FYI I had a problematic leak in a polyethylene black water holding tank on my motor home. I think that is why it was up for sale so cheap. I drained the tank and scrubbed the area with Tide and a plastic brush. After rinsing well I allowed the area to dry a few days.? Then I mixed up the leftover sealer I had stored in the fridge eighteen months earlier. After careful application with a paint mixing stick?I allowed the assembly to sit one week. To this day those tanks are as good as new. Pretty incredible stuff.
Brett
Subject: Fuel tank sealing
From: "ashontz" <url>
I think I'm going to use Pro-Seal or whatever it is Dave Clay
recommended to seal
up my tanks, which means I'm riveting them.
Anyway, I made my tanks per the Zenith plans and now that I have it
partially assembled
I'm looking at that huge gap at the full length seam side where the
skin
joins itself. That reverse bend makes for one big unnecessary gap (see
picture).
Has anyone else made the tanks per the plans, gotten that, to be
expected
gap, and had luck with the sealer taking care of that gap?
| Quote: |
://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
|
|
Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest products and top money wasters of 2007.
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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ashontz
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Proseal fuel tanks |
|
|
Brett, thanks for the info. I'm going to remake that skin if I go with an internal tank rather than a wet skin tank. Haven't decided yet.
Just getting myself back in building mode and a few days or a week of thinking, considering, and reorienting myself is well worth the time rather than just jumping in then realizing I wasn't totally reoriented and having to go back and fix something major. Spent the last 6 months doing house jobs, car repairs, building a shed to make the workshop more functional etc... you tend to forget what you were working on on the plane and what your major considerations were that you take for granted when you're in the zone.
do not archive
_____________________________________________________________
Andy,
If you are going to rivet and proseal or flame seal your tanks there can not be any "big" gaps. All the seams need to fit tight and be riveted down so all surfaces are touching. Of course there will be small pin holes in the corners and tiny gaps between the joints. The sealer will fill those. If you have large gaps of say more than 1/32 of an inch thick you should consider another row of rivets or some other measure to close them mechanically. Maybe you could trim back the flange and use a piece of standard "L" to close the gap.
The poly sulfide sealers form a tenacious bond between the aluminum parts. The sealer itself is quite tough but I would not trust it to fill large gaps. I used this construction method on my 701 tanks and believe they are a lot stronger than the welded version made by Zenith.? I was able to incorporate two baffles in each tank. These baffles make the tank much stronger structurally. I did redesign the tanks making them the same size overall but all the flanges on the ends are turned in reverse of the standard welded tanks. This allowed me to incorporate a larger mating surface while slightly increasing the capacity of the tank as well. If you use pop rivets they will all have to be sealed on the exterior of the tank as well.
To give yourself a little confidence in the strength of the bond you should rivet up some test seams when you are sealing the tanks. Rivet them as you would any other seam of the tank. Give the entire assembly several weeks to cure, especially in cold weather. Then drill out the rivets on the test pieces and try to break the bond of the sealer alone. You will be surprised at how strong the sealer is. I could not separate the bond on my samples. The aluminum tore first.
You must be absolutely sure the the aluminum is clean. That means clean; not kinda clean. I started the cleaning by scrubbing the parts in hot water using dish washing soap then flushing with hot water. I repeated this process three times. Then I wiped down the joints with MEK. Good idea to do this on a sunny day if possible. I did this cleaning process after all the fabrication and deburing had been done. Do not blow dry the parts with compressed air because there may be a little oil mist in the spray. If needed a blow drier or heat gun might work well. Once the parts are clean be sure you wear latex or nitril gloves when handling the parts. The oil from your skin could possibly cause problems in the bond. These sealers are messy and the gloves will simplify the clean up process.
I mixed mine using a 10:1 ratio of sealer to hardener. A electronic scale works great for measuring the parts. Put the scale in a clear plastic bag before using it and you will not need to worry about getting it dirty. Scrap aluminum that has been cleaned makes a great mixing pallet and spatula. Just throw it away with the gloves between batches.? Remember, you are looking for a great seal and not a pretty finish. None of this will be seen when the plane is done so if you have a smear or two out of place relax. Perfect means no leaks and sound joints.
Be aware that there are people that swear that it is unsafe to use this sealer on tanks using auto fuel. Other people will tell you that it is OK to use auto fuel in these tanks. I have been soaking one of my sample bonds in premium auto fuel inside a mason jar for about two years now. I have seen no softening in the bond. Who is right? You tell me. My next plane will have tanks sealed with poly sulfide sealer as well. They make good sense. Check out the Vans website. They have the best deal on the material.
FYI I had a problematic leak in a polyethylene black water holding tank on my motor home. I think that is why it was up for sale so cheap. I drained the tank and scrubbed the area with Tide and a plastic brush. After rinsing well I allowed the area to dry a few days.? Then I mixed up the leftover sealer I had stored in the fridge eighteen months earlier. After careful application with a paint mixing stick?I allowed the assembly to sit one week. To this day those tanks are as good as new. Pretty incredible stuff.
Brett
Subject: Fuel tank sealing
From: "ashontz" <ashontz>
I think I'm going to use Pro-Seal or whatever it is Dave Clay
recommended to seal
up my tanks, which means I'm riveting them.
Anyway, I made my tanks per the Zenith plans and now that I have it
partially assembled
I'm looking at that huge gap at the full length seam side where the
skin
joins itself. That reverse bend makes for one big unnecessary gap (see
picture).
Has anyone else made the tanks per the plans, gotten that, to be
expected
gap, and had luck with the sealer taking care of that gap?
Quote:
://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
f="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
| | - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
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