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Rotax 582 & Oil%

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: Rotax 582 & Oil%

It sounds like you had too much of the radiator covered.  You already

guessed that.



One of the finicky things about two stroke engines is they have to have the

mixture just about spot on.  Lower the temperature of the air 40 to 50 F and

you will find the engine runs too lean.  This is because there is actually

more air and O2 getting into the engine at the lower temperatures.  For this

reason most of the guys and gals will lift the needles in their carbs a

notch this has the effect of enrichening the mixture at less than full

throttle. This is usually enough correction but you may have to swap the

main jets for a larger size. Try http://www.800-airwolf.com/articles.htm for

jet sizes.  http://www.ultralightnews.ca/ definitely has a chart of jets

etc. for different field altitudes and temperatures.

Finally Dave Fisher on this group does hundreds of hours a year on a R582.

Contact him or Bob Robertson also on this group to get the straight dope on

the mixture.



Noel



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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:35 pm Post subject: Rotax 582 & Oil%

I just thought of one other thing....  If you are flying with ethanol

contaminated gasoline and pre mixing the gas you may also be experiencing a

phase separation of the gas and oil at the cooler temperatures.  Best bet is

not to use any gas contaminated with Ethanol.  If you have to use Ethanol

contaminated fuel, also use oil injection.



Noel



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Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:27 am Post subject: Rotax 582 & Oil%

Michel, I would also check the thermostat. I flew behind a 582 for a couple of years and I know that the thermostat is easy to access, remove, and test in a bucket of hot water. See if it opens. Good luck.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

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Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

CrownLJ(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:32 am Post subject: Rotax 582 & Oil%

Michel,

  

   Could it be possible that your water temp was not warmed up (150F  ish)( 10 min or so) before you applied power?  I'm wondering if you  had a cold seizure where the piston expands quicker than the cylinder and thus  tolerances are reduced.  It is important to get the water temp warm and  then let the engine run for several minutes before applying high power.  I  personally preheat my water by using a Ski Doo inline water heater.  I find  after an hour or so, the water temp is 80+F.  I also use a 160F thermostat  for the winter and switch back to the Rotax 135F one for the summer.  The  part I use for the winter is  "Thermostat  3853799  Bombardier Evinrude Johnson".  I no  longer tape up the radiator, as this thermostat will keep temps 160-175F with  the rads open.  Operating as I do, the engine starts very easy and idles at  2000 rpm nicely.  By the time I taxi to the end of the strip, the water  temp is at 160, with the thermostat open, and away I go.  With the inline  heater, the engine is uniformly warm, and the temps raises the rest of the way  quite nicely.  The other nice feature is cabin heat is warmer!

  

     I do not understand why one would dilute the oil in the winter.  It is  mixed as a percentage and should then burn as a percentage too?  If  anything, with the dense air, wouldn't an engine develop more hp and power and  therefore need a bit more?  I think that it would be quite safe to follow  the Rotax "air" engine recommendations.  I think that they may be a bit  conservative, but then what is the negative consequence of being  conservative?  A biker or cart racer can optimize an engine for the time,  and day, but the weather conditions are more constant for that racer.  On  the other hand, how many times do you start in the morning, and by afternoon, it  is 20 degrees warmer?  I think that is why the "air" engines are jetted  cooler than normal and so on.  We trade efficiency for "margin of  operations".

  

    I would check for piston scoring by removing the exhaust manifold and checking  with a flashlight.  The cold temps will drastically affect the rpm too, as  the air is heavier and the engine works more to achieve that rpm.  I  believe that we still develop full hp. due to a lower density altitude as these  cold temps.  I had been concerned about the daily differences when I  started with a 2 stroke.  In that first year or two, I journalized all my  engine parameters, temps, etc so I could see what/when was happening.  I  can now predict the engine parameters that I expect to see at a given outside  temperature and pressure.

  

    I hope this helps, and your engine did not incur damage.

  

 larry

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Mark.Napier(at)sciatl.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: Rotax 582 & Oil%

Hey Michel,



Others on the list may be thinking what I am, but since no one else has

said it yet:



I would pull the heads and cylinders and look very carefully at the

pistons and the cylinder walls.  Just taking the exhaust off and looking

in isn't good enough.  There have been several engines that have started

to have problems with pistons seizing with much less abuse than this

motor has been given.  Just because the motor seems to run OK doesn't

mean there isn't some damage.  It is typical of the 2-stoke to run fine

after an event but still have aluminum on the cylinder wall and galled

pistons.  It will fail on you and maybe at a very bad time.



You'll need a top end gasket set and this one will work just fine:

http://www.mfgsupply.com/m/c/712194.html?id=rQMfuDpQ

If you need it (you shouldn't) this is a mostly full gasket set but I

don't use the crankshaft seals.  The Rotax ones are much better.

However, the gastets, RV/water pump seals and O-rings are perfectly OK.

There are a few parts missing for the 582 but this will still save you

$$$.

http://www.mfgsupply.com/m/c/711194.html



If the cylinders are scratched and the pistons galled then you will need

to hone the cylinders.  The cylinders are hard enough that you may well

be able to get by just cleaning them with Muratic acid to remove any

aluminum and honing with a ball hone to re-establish the cross-hatch

pattern.  De-carbon the pistons and start measuring.  Light galling can

also be touched up as the pistons are very tough.



None of the work is difficult just time consuming.



Fly Safe,



Mark Napier



Time: 05:18:05 AM PST US

Subject: Re: Rotax 582 & Oil%

From: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>



 	  Quote: 	
		   I immediately reduced power, went into a gently dive and made a

emergency landing
	


on my airfield. During descent, I saw the water temp 

 	  Quote: 	
		   becoming normal (85C). 

 

 It was obvious that the temp was a direct result of too much tape over

the radiator.
	


But was caused the engine to cough ? Was it the high temperature ? Is

it the oil mixture ? 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Somebody can help me ? 

 

 Greetz, 

 Michel

 

 


	




Normal temps are not  85C -   that Is getting into the "caution area" of

a 582

  ( 80C to 90C  -   176 to 200F  )   You can run at 180  without issues

but 

it leave little room for error.   You were running at  240 F    (115C )

WAY

TOO HOT........  70% of RAD covered?   I would rather see  70% of Rad

open on

a stock Kitfox Rad......   ( 4"  b y  20"  = 80 sq inches) 



Why you smell molten plastic ?   Did you find anything melted ?  Likely

not but

that Engine was telling to it was VERY HOT. 



You never said was your outside air temp was ? 

You never said what kind of oil  you used ? 

Mixture on Pre mix  should be 50 to 1     =  2% 

Oil injected engines will run leaner than that over all  -  BUT they

supply oil

with demand ..  eg  full throttle =  about 50 to 1 mix but at reduced

throttle

you might run 70 to 1........   If you try to skimp on oil ratio  then

it is

possible you will not have enough oil under  full throttle and high load

conditions.



I would run some  static ground run ups prior to next flight of duration

of  2

to 5 minutes at  full throttle to make sure you have similar to full

load climbout

engine checks.   Depending  on Prop  your static can range from 6000 to

6500.    Where were your EGT gauges through alll  of this ?



--------

Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

Flying Videos and Kitfox Info

http://www.cfisher.com/

 



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