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John Ackerman
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ
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 Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: Holes in the lid |
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Here's a heads up, folks
We're installing an Avidyne TAS600 active traffic system. The ideal
(for antenna performance) place to mount the top traffic antenna
(there is also one on the bottom of the fuselage) is on the high
point of the fuselage, over the doors. I emailed Van's to ask about
the structural suitability of that location, and was told:
| Quote: | On the C-1001 Cabin Cover there are areas of solid laminate, areas
of 1
inch thick foam core, and areas of 1/4 inch honeycomb core.
Drilling of
holes (except those called for in the RV-10 manual) through any
area of
solid laminate or 1 inch thick core is not allowed as it will
adversely affect the
structural integrity of the cabin cover. Drilling of holes in the
area of 1/4 inch
core is acceptable so long as the edge of the hole(s) is no closer
than 2
inches from the edge of the honeycomb.
|
Clearly my proposed location was structurally unacceptable. I infer
from this that one should not mount even GPS antennae through the
foam core.
Ken suggested that we
| Quote: | ...mount the antenna further aft so as to be in the area of
honeycomb core. The cabin cover provides roll-over protection to the
occupants in the event of a crash and is, therefore, very much a
structurally
critical component.
|
We are using an overhead plenum that has provision for a DVD player
or whatever right behind the foam core area at the front of the
honeycomb area.
We will put the top traffic antenna right there with a 101/2" X 13"
ground plane of 0.025" Al. The 10 1/2" dimension smaller than
specified (minimum 11 3/4"), but our top antenna primarily looks fore
and aft, and we are told that it will do. Compromises, compromises.
Good thing I've worked with engineers my whole life. We shall see how
well we can make it work - I expect to post again on this some years
in the future when we're flying 
It sure is great to get that kind of support! Prompt, too.
BTW, we got fantastic support from Avidyne/Ryan, as well. Good thing-
this is a tough install for those of us inexperienced with RF devices
and avionics in general.
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: Holes in the lid |
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John,
Did you inquire about what if you drilled an antenna hole or other
type of hole, dug out some of the foam and filled it with epoxy
with structural filler to go out into the foam cavity slightly,
and then drilled a hole through your new hard spot for the
antenna? This isn't an engineered answer, but it seems that it
should be pretty easy to get back some structure in the cabin top
by just reinforcing the area you drilled through...and it's an
easy process to do.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Ackerman wrote:
| Quote: |
Here's a heads up, folks
We're installing an Avidyne TAS600 active traffic system. The ideal (for
antenna performance) place to mount the top traffic antenna (there is
also one on the bottom of the fuselage) is on the high point of the
fuselage, over the doors. I emailed Van's to ask about the structural
suitability of that location, and was told:
> On the C-1001 Cabin Cover there are areas of solid laminate, areas of 1
> inch thick foam core, and areas of 1/4 inch honeycomb core. Drilling of
> holes (except those called for in the RV-10 manual) through any area of
> solid laminate or 1 inch thick core is not allowed as it will
> adversely affect the
> structural integrity of the cabin cover. Drilling of holes in the area
> of 1/4 inch
> core is acceptable so long as the edge of the hole(s) is no closer than 2
> inches from the edge of the honeycomb.
Clearly my proposed location was structurally unacceptable. I infer from
this that one should not mount even GPS antennae through the foam core.
Ken suggested that we
> ...mount the antenna further aft so as to be in the area of
> honeycomb core. The cabin cover provides roll-over protection to the
> occupants in the event of a crash and is, therefore, very much a
> structurally
> critical component.
We are using an overhead plenum that has provision for a DVD player or
whatever right behind the foam core area at the front of the honeycomb
area.
We will put the top traffic antenna right there with a 101/2" X 13"
ground plane of 0.025" Al. The 10 1/2" dimension smaller than specified
(minimum 11 3/4"), but our top antenna primarily looks fore and aft, and
we are told that it will do. Compromises, compromises. Good thing I've
worked with engineers my whole life. We shall see how well we can make
it work - I expect to post again on this some years in the future when
we're flying
It sure is great to get that kind of support! Prompt, too.
BTW, we got fantastic support from Avidyne/Ryan, as well. Good thing-
this is a tough install for those of us inexperienced with RF devices
and avionics in general.
|
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John Ackerman
Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Prescott, AZ
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: Holes in the lid |
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Tim,
I had planned to do just that except that I planned to "line" the
holes with Al tubing. However, the structural analysis of complex
curved sandwich structures with cutouts (doors, windows, windshield)
is waaay beyond my capabilities. I have no way of knowing whether a
hard point there would make the structure as a whole weaker or
stronger, for example.
Now where am I gonna put those darn GPS/WX antennae? Darn!
John
On Nov 30, 2007, at 10:53 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: |
John,
Did you inquire about what if you drilled an antenna hole or other
type of hole, dug out some of the foam and filled it with epoxy
with structural filler to go out into the foam cavity slightly,
and then drilled a hole through your new hard spot for the
antenna? This isn't an engineered answer, but it seems that it
should be pretty easy to get back some structure in the cabin top
by just reinforcing the area you drilled through...and it's an
easy process to do.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Ackerman wrote:
>
> <johnag5b(at)cableone.net>
> Here's a heads up, folks
> We're installing an Avidyne TAS600 active traffic system. The
> ideal (for antenna performance) place to mount the top traffic
> antenna (there is also one on the bottom of the fuselage) is on
> the high point of the fuselage, over the doors. I emailed Van's to
> ask about the structural suitability of that location, and was told:
>> On the C-1001 Cabin Cover there are areas of solid laminate,
>> areas of 1
>> inch thick foam core, and areas of 1/4 inch honeycomb core.
>> Drilling of
>> holes (except those called for in the RV-10 manual) through any
>> area of
>> solid laminate or 1 inch thick core is not allowed as it will
>> adversely affect the
>> structural integrity of the cabin cover. Drilling of holes in the
>> area of 1/4 inch
>> core is acceptable so long as the edge of the hole(s) is no
>> closer than 2
>> inches from the edge of the honeycomb.
> Clearly my proposed location was structurally unacceptable. I
> infer from this that one should not mount even GPS antennae
> through the foam core.
> Ken suggested that we
>> ...mount the antenna further aft so as to be in the area of
>> honeycomb core. The cabin cover provides roll-over protection to the
>> occupants in the event of a crash and is, therefore, very much a
>> structurally
>> critical component.
> We are using an overhead plenum that has provision for a DVD
> player or whatever right behind the foam core area at the front of
> the honeycomb area.
> We will put the top traffic antenna right there with a 101/2" X
> 13" ground plane of 0.025" Al. The 10 1/2" dimension smaller than
> specified (minimum 11 3/4"), but our top antenna primarily looks
> fore and aft, and we are told that it will do. Compromises,
> compromises. Good thing I've worked with engineers my whole life.
> We shall see how well we can make it work - I expect to post again
> on this some years in the future when we're flying
> It sure is great to get that kind of support! Prompt, too.
> BTW, we got fantastic support from Avidyne/Ryan, as well. Good
> thing- this is a tough install for those of us inexperienced with
> RF devices and avionics in general.
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:23 am Post subject: Holes in the lid |
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|
I'm not sure why the GPS makers so obsess with having the antenna where it can see 360 degrees. I find with my tiny bluetooth receiver that I use with a PDA that I rarely have less than 7 satellites and usually 8-10. Seems to me that the glareshield and area in front of windshield should be pretty good.
On Nov 30, 2007 11:37 PM, John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net (johnag5b(at)cableone.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net (johnag5b(at)cableone.net)>
Tim,
I had planned to do just that except that I planned to "line" the
holes with Al tubing. However, the structural analysis of complex
curved sandwich structures with cutouts (doors, windows, windshield)
is waaay beyond my capabilities. I have no way of knowing whether a
hard point there would make the structure as a whole weaker or
stronger, for example.
Now where am I gonna put those darn GPS/WX antennae? Darn!
John
On Nov 30, 2007, at 10:53 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com (Tim(at)MyRV10.com)>
John,
Did you inquire about what if you drilled an antenna hole or other
> type of hole, dug out some of the foam and filled it with epoxy
|
| Quote: | with structural filler to go out into the foam cavity slightly,
and then drilled a hole through your new hard spot for the
antenna? This isn't an engineered answer, but it seems that it
should be pretty easy to get back some structure in the cabin top
by just reinforcing the area you drilled through...and it's an
easy process to do.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Ackerman wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: John Ackerman
> <johnag5b(at)cableone.net (johnag5b(at)cableone.net)>
> Here's a heads up, folks
> We're installing an Avidyne TAS600 active traffic system. The
> ideal (for antenna performance) place to mount the top traffic
> antenna (there is also one on the bottom of the fuselage) is on
> the high point of the fuselage, over the doors. I emailed Van's to
> ask about the structural suitability of that location, and was told:
>> On the C-1001 Cabin Cover there are areas of solid laminate,
>> areas of 1
>> inch thick foam core, and areas of 1/4 inch honeycomb core.
>> Drilling of
>> holes (except those called for in the RV-10 manual) through any
>> area of
>> solid laminate or 1 inch thick core is not allowed as it will
>> adversely affect the
>> structural integrity of the cabin cover. Drilling of holes in the
>> area of 1/4 inch
>> core is acceptable so long as the edge of the hole(s) is no
>> closer than 2
>> inches from the edge of the honeycomb.
> Clearly my proposed location was structurally unacceptable. I
> infer from this that one should not mount even GPS antennae
> through the foam core.
> Ken suggested that we
>> ...mount the antenna further aft so as to be in the area of
>>> honeycomb core. The cabin cover provides roll-over protection to the
|
[quote]>> occupants in the event of a crash and is, therefore, very much a
>> structurally
>> critical component.
> We are using an overhead plenum that has provision for a DVD
> player or whatever right behind the foam core area at the front of
> the honeycomb area.
> We will put the top traffic antenna right there with a 101/2" X
> 13" ground plane of 0.025" Al. The 10 1/2" dimension smaller than
> specified (minimum 11 3/4"), but our top antenna primarily looks
> fore and aft, and we are told that it will do. Compromises,
> compromises. Good thing I've worked with engineers my whole life.
> We shall see how well we can make it work - I expect to post again
> on this some years in the future when we're flying
> It sure is great to get that kind of support! Prompt, too.
> BTW, we got fantastic support from Avidyne/Ryan, as well. Good
> thing- this is a tough install for those of us inexperienced with [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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n223rv(at)wolflakeairport
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: Holes in the lid |
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<<Now where am I gonna put those darn GPS/WX antennae? Darn!>>
We put ours under the cowl... 3 gps antennas and the XM antenna. Do issues, but keep them centered between the firewall and engine mount and as high as you can... And I'm told not to use metallic paint on the cowl.
-Mike Kraus
-RV-4 flying with antennas in the cowl
-RV-10 building
--
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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:24 am Post subject: Holes in the lid |
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I don't believe GPS transmission signals are shielded by fiberglass anyway.
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:23 AM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Holes in the lid
I'm not sure why the GPS makers so obsess with having the antenna where it can see 360 degrees. I find with my tiny bluetooth receiver that I use with a PDA that I rarely have less than 7 satellites and usually 8-10. Seems to me that the glareshield and area in front of windshield should be pretty good.
On Nov 30, 2007 11:37 PM, John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net (johnag5b(at)cableone.net)> wrote:
[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: John Ackerman <johnag5b(at)cableone.net (johnag5b(at)cableone.net)>
Tim,
I had planned to do just that except that I planned to "line" the
holes with Al tubing. However, the structural analysis of complex
curved sandwich structures with cutouts (doors, windows, windshield)
is waaay beyond my capabilities. I have no way of knowing whether a
hard point there would make the structure as a whole weaker or
stronger, for example.
Now where am I gonna put those darn GPS/WX antennae? Darn!
John
On Nov 30, 2007, at 10:53 PM, Tim Olson wrote:
| Quote: | --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com (Tim(at)MyRV10.com)>
John,
Did you inquire about what if you drilled an antenna hole or other
type of hole, dug out some of the foam and filled it with epoxy
with structural filler to go out into the foam cavity slightly,
and then drilled a hole through your new hard spot for the
antenna? This isn't an engineered answer, but it seems that it
should be pretty easy to get back some structure in the cabin top
by just reinforcing the area you drilled through...and it's an
easy process to do.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
John Ackerman wrote:
> --> RV10-List message posted by: John Ackerman
> <johnag5b(at)cableone.net (johnag5b(at)cableone.net)>
> Here's a heads up, folks
> We're installing an Avidyne TAS600 active traffic system. The
> ideal (for antenna performance) place to mount the top traffic
> antenna (there is also one on the bottom of the fuselage) is on
> the high point of the fuselage, over the doors. I emailed Van's to
> ask about the structural suitability of that location, and was told:
>> On the C-1001 Cabin Cover there are areas of solid laminate,
>> areas of 1
>> inch thick foam core, and areas of 1/4 inch honeycomb core.
>> Drilling of
>> holes (except those called for in the RV-10 manual) through any
>> area of
>> solid laminate or 1 inch thick core is not allowed as it will
>> adversely affect the
>> structural integrity of the cabin cover. Drilling of holes in the
>> area of 1/4 inch
>> core is acceptable so long as the edge of the hole(s) is no
>> closer than 2
>> inches from the edge of the honeycomb.
> Clearly my proposed location was structurally unacceptable. I
> infer from this that one should not mount even GPS antennae
> through the foam core.
> Ken suggested that we
>> ...mount the antenna further aft so as to be in the area of
>> honeycomb core. The cabin cover provides roll-over protection to the
>> occupants in the event of a crash and is, therefore, very much a
>> structurally
>> critical component.
> We are using an overhead plenum that has provision for a DVD
> player or whatever right behind the foam core area at the front of
> the honeycomb area.
> We will put the top traffic antenna right there with a 101/2" X
> 13" ground plane of 0.025" Al. The 10 1/2" dimension smaller than
> specified (minimum 11 3/4"), but our top antenna primarily looks
> fore and aft, and we are told that it will do. Compromises,
> compromises. Good thing I've worked with engineers my whole life.
> We shall see how well we can make it work - I expect to post again
> on this some years in the future when we're flying
> It sure is great to get that kind of support! Prompt, too.
> BTW, we got fantastic support from Avidyne/Ryan, as well. Good
> thing- this is a tough install for those of us inexperienced with
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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[b]
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Deems Davis
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: Holes in the lid |
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OH NO !!!!! And just when I've finished fabricating my 5 ft tall
gyroscopically gimbal stabilized antenna pylon made of space age
transparidium!!!!!!!! =-O
Some days' a guy just can't win for loosing.
On a more serious note, since I already have mounted both the WAAS GPS
and XM antennas in the DMZ, I'm going to do as Tim suggests and dig out
the foam 5/16- 3/8" back from the antenna cable holes fill it with flox
then redrill. As to the mounting screw holes................... :-\
Deems Davis # 406
'Its all done....Its just not put together'
http://deemsrv10.com/
Kelly McMullen wrote:
| Quote: | I'm not sure why the GPS makers so obsess with having the antenna
where it can see 360 degrees. I find with my tiny bluetooth receiver
that I use with a PDA that I rarely have less than 7 satellites and
usually 8-10. Seems to me that the glareshield and area in front of
windshield should be pretty good.
*
*
|
| | - The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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