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Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II

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jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:48 am Post subject: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II

Hi All:



I have been flying a Kitfox II for ten years.  It has a 582.  It requires plenty of left rudder during takeoff roll, and considerable left rudder during cruising.  Since that is the only Kitfox that I have ever flown, I have always considered that normal (I used to fly a Cessna T-41 that required considerable right rudder during cruise).  The plane now has a new owner, and he has been told by other experienced pilot that the pedals should be neutral during cruise.  Is it this normal behavior for a Kitfox II?  



This airplane once had a nose over (before I bought it), and the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer is not perfectly aligned to the fuselage, it is slightly directed toward the left wing.  I don't know if this alignment is normal on the Kitfox II, or was an inadequate fix after the nose over.  All that being said, I still think that the plane flies wonderfully. 



José Toro

ex Kitfox II/582

Be a better sports nut!  Let your teams follow you 

with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.  http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:24 am Post subject: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II

On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Jose M. Toro wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The plane now has a new owner, and he has been told by other 

 experienced pilot that the pedals should be neutral during cruise.  Is 

 it this normal behavior for a Kitfox II?


	


I was cruising the 582 with a foot slightly on the left pedal, José. 

Now, with the Jabiru, I fly with a foot slightly on the right pedal. I 

guess you'll need some pedal correction with any single engine aircraft 

unless you had a fixed rudder tab.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II

I put a fixed rudder tab on my Jab-powered 'fox, and it still  

requires a tiny bit of left rudder pressure, which means that some  

slight adjustment will be required to compensate. And that would be  

at only one particular airspeed, as I see it. Before I installed it,  

much more rudder was needed. It seems to me that it's probably a  

combo of airspeed, prop pitch, and a few other factors that all have  

to align before a fixed tab would result in a "foot off" flying  

experience. I'm still thinking about a cabin-adjustable tab that I  

could build without resorting to cutting and welding the rudder, or  

disturbing the fabric and paint.

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/440+ hrs

On Dec 2, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Dec 2, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Jose M. Toro wrote:

> The plane now has a new owner, and he has been told by other  

> experienced pilot that the pedals should be neutral during  

> cruise.  Is it this normal behavior for a Kitfox II?

 I was cruising the 582 with a foot slightly on the left pedal,  

 José. Now, with the Jabiru, I fly with a foot slightly on the right  

 pedal. I guess you'll need some pedal correction with any single  

 engine aircraft unless you had a fixed rudder tab.

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:13 am Post subject: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II

My 'fox required a lot of rudder pedal; I think it was left rudder.  I used

to get out of an hour or two of flying feeling as if I had spent the whole

time standing on one foot.  I installed a small rudder tab and it now

requires little constant pressure.  The rudder on my plane is what I would

consider to be the primary control.  Now I don't have to keep a constant

pressure on the left pedal.

Most certified planes will have the vertical stab and strake set off an inch

or so to the left.  That helps keep the plane flying straight, countering

the swirl of the air coming back off the prop.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:02 am Post subject: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II

Lynn:

The job of the tab is to move the primary flight control not be a primary

flight control.  That means that your tab has to be able to move your

rudder.  You no doubt can put an exterior tab on the rudder but I expect you

will have to put the actuating equipment inside the rudder itself.  That

could be done from one side of the rudder.  Hinging the tab outside behind

the rudder could save some welding.



BTW for the benefit of the crowd who haven't installed or adjusted a tab.

The tab has to be turned into the direction of the control you want.  E.g.

to assist left pedal, turn the tab to the right which in turn will push the

rudder left.  Kind of like leaning into a left hook.

 



Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

Campbellton, Newfoundland, 

Canada

Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

Aerocet 1100s

noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca





[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II

Noel-

Maybe I didn't explain my situation well enough. I know that the tab  

is there just to move the control surface, not to BE the flight  

surface. In the case of a fixed tab, that is, a ground-adjustable  

tab, is to move, in this case the rudder, to a position that will  

allow at a chosen speed, "hands off" or as I described it earlier,  

"foot off" flying. The reason that I mentioned the "airspeed, prop  

pitch and a few other factors" was that if you set your ground  

adjustable tab it will only work to keep the rudder at a particular  

position at a particular speed. At least this is the case that I have  

found with my bendable, ground-adjustable rudder tab. After I  

installed my tab, I made a couple of flights, adjusting the amount of  

deflection after each landing. Since then I have left it alone, but  

noticed that maybe a little bit more bend will perfect the setting,  

but as I understand it, this perfect setting will only keep the plane  

straight at a very narrow speed range...is this correct?



As to my thoughts for the cabin-adjustable control of the rudder tab,  

I was thinking that a cable-controlled tab, hinged outside of course,  

with a large enough radius in the cable to allow for rudder movement  

would do the job. My present tab is riveted to the rear of the rudder  

weldment. When I made the tab, I made it conform to the shape of the  

tubing, so that I would get the most surface contact with the tubing,  

allowing for the ability to bend the tab without just flexing the  

rivets that hold it on. If and when I decide to make the tab cabin- 

controlled, I'll drill out the rivets, cut the tab at the proper  

hinge point, and reassemble the newly hinged tab back onto the rudder  

weldment. Routing and attaching the cable will be the most difficult  

part of the job as I see it.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/440+ hrs



On Dec 3, 2007, at 11:00 AM, Noel R. C. Loveys wrote:



[quote] 

 <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>



 Lynn:

 The job of the tab is to move the primary flight control not be a  

 primary

 flight control.  That means that your tab has to be able to move your

 rudder.  You no doubt can put an exterior tab on the rudder but I  

 expect you

 will have to put the actuating equipment inside the rudder itself.   

 That

 could be done from one side of the rudder.  Hinging the tab outside  

 behind

 the rudder could save some welding.



 BTW for the benefit of the crowd who haven't installed or adjusted  

 a tab.

 The tab has to be turned into the direction of the control you  

 want.  E.g.

 to assist left pedal, turn the tab to the right which in turn will  

 push the

 rudder left.  Kind of like leaning into a left hook.





 Noel Loveys, RPP, AME intern

 Campbellton, Newfoundland,

 Canada

 Kitfox Mod III-A, 582, B box, Ivo IFA

 Aerocet 1100s

 noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca





> --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II

You got it... for feet off flying your fixed tab, like mine, is only really

sweet at one power setting, speed, attitude set up.



The easiest way I can think of to install an adjustable tab without opening

the rudder would be to put the hinge, as you said, outside the trailing edge

of the rudder.  Then put a bell crank on the tab and a standoff to hold the

cable in place on the main pipe of the rudder.  The cable should be routed

down into the fuselage at an angle to give flex room to operate the rudder

without binding on the cable.  What I'm suggesting is to use an inner outer

cable like on bicycle brakes only heavier.  (Also used by the Super Cub.)

It wouldn't be pretty but it would work.



If you don't mind re-skinning the rudder you could install an electric

actuator inside the rudder and actuate the same tab as mentioned before.

Small electrical control wires can be routed through drilled holes in the

main pipe and be nicely hidden.  This would make for a much cleaner

professional looking job.



The best method is the one already dismissed....  Get out the welding torch.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II

Noel:



I want to add that this power setting will change with temperature, altitude, weight, wind direction, etc., and corresponding speed will also change.  Due to gas consumption, weight is continuously decreasing.  This implies that this unique power setting needs to be revised periodically to keep the plane flying "feet off".  Ok, maybe I got too technical...or even philosophical...



José



Noel Lovey wrote:

"You got it... for feet off flying your fixed tab, like mine, is only really

sweet at one power setting, speed, attitude set up".

Looking for last minute shopping deals?

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II

The first Kitfox that I actually flew was a Model  I with a 582.  Needless to say, after landing on the beach 8 miles  south of San Fransisco I was convinced that a 2 stroke engine was not for me.  I sent the parts for 582 back to  SKY star and bought a 91ULS.  After attending the engine clinic from CPS in 1999 I  sold the 912UL and purchased and installed a 912ULS.  Never looked back.  Almost 1300 hours now.

  

 My point was in response to trim tab on earlier models this one had a little lever on the left side with a spring attached to the rudder cable.  Putting a slight tension on the cable gave rudder trim to the aircraft the left and didn't affect the rudder feel.  Very clever.

  

 Clint

  

 From: noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca

[quote] To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II

 Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 15:34:05 -0330

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel R. C. Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

 

 You got it... for feet off flying your fixed tab, like mine, is only really

 sweet at one power setting, speed, attitude set up.

 

 The easiest way I can think of to install an adjustable tab without opening

 the rudder would be to put the hinge, as you said, outside the trailing edge

 of the rudder. Then put a bell crank on the tab and a standoff to hold the

 cable in place on the main pipe of the rudder. The cable should be routed

 down into the fuselage at an angle to give flex room to operate the rudder

 without binding on the cable. What I'm suggesting is to use an inner outer

 cable like on bicycle brakes only heavier. (Also used by the Super Cub.)

 It wouldn't be pretty but it would work.

 

 If you don't mind re-skinning the rudder you could install an electric

 actuator inside the rudder and actuate the same tab as mentioned before.

 Small electrical control wires can be routed through drilled holes in the

 main pipe and be nicely hidden. This would make for a much cleaner

 professional looking job.

 

 The best method is the one already dismissed.... Get out the welding torch.

 

 Noel

 

 > --

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II

Not to pick nits, but that part that you're going to attach onto the  

tab would be a "horn" wouldn't it?



I may go with the cable-operated trim tab if I run out of other  

things to do, and if I ever have to disturb the fabric, I'll fire up  

the thermal surgery machine, and go with a servo operation. For now,  

the little pressure that I have to apply from time to time isn't that  

big a deal.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/440+ hrs

do not archive

On Dec 6, 2007, at 2:04 PM, Noel R. C. Loveys wrote:



[quote] 

 <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>



 You got it... for feet off flying your fixed tab, like mine, is  

 only really

 sweet at one power setting, speed, attitude set up.



 The easiest way I can think of to install an adjustable tab without  

 opening

 the rudder would be to put the hinge, as you said, outside the  

 trailing edge

 of the rudder.  Then put a bell crank on the tab and a standoff to  

 hold the

 cable in place on the main pipe of the rudder.  The cable should be  

 routed

 down into the fuselage at an angle to give flex room to operate the  

 rudder

 without binding on the cable.  What I'm suggesting is to use an  

 inner outer

 cable like on bicycle brakes only heavier.  (Also used by the Super  

 Cub.)

 It wouldn't be pretty but it would work.



 If you don't mind re-skinning the rudder you could install an electric

 actuator inside the rudder and actuate the same tab as mentioned  

 before.

 Small electrical control wires can be routed through drilled holes  

 in the

 main pipe and be nicely hidden.  This would make for a much cleaner

 professional looking job.



 The best method is the one already dismissed....  Get out the  

 welding torch.



 Noel



> --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

kerrjohna(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: Left Rudder on 582 powered Kitfox II

Clint's comment stirred a memory.  Early on with my 912UL I shortened the rudder return spring on the right side (left side for 582) to provide some of the pressure.  More recently a crescent shaped tab was added to the bottom of the rudder to make the adjustments more finite.  It is still not infinitely adjustable as Lynn poses but I find that for cruise conditions at my normal power setting no right rudder is required.

  

 The adjustable spring has been used on earlier certificated aircraft.

  

 John

  

 [quote]-------------- Original message -------------- 

From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net> 



 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson 

 

 Not to pick nits, but that part that you're going to attach onto the 

 tab would be a "horn" wouldn't it? 

 

 I may go with the cable-operated trim tab if I run out of other 

 things to do, and if I ever have to disturb the fabric, I'll fire up 

 the thermal surgery machine, and go with a servo operation. For now, 

 the little pressure that I have to apply from time to time isn't that 

 big a deal. 

 

 Lynn Matteson 

 Grass Lake, Michigan 

 Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200 

 flying w/440+ hrs 

 do not archive 

 

 

 On Dec 6, 2007, at 2:04 PM, Noel R. C. Loveys wrote: 

 

   > - -> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel R. C. Loveys" 

 > 

 > 

 > You got it... for feet off flying your fixed tab, like mine, is 

 > only really 

 > sweet at one power setting, speed, attitude set up. 

 > 

 > The easiest way I can think of to install an adjustable tab without 

 > opening 

 > the rudder would be to put the hinge, as you said, outside the 

 > trailing edge 

 > of the rudder. Then put a bell crank on the tab and a standoff to 

 > hold the 

 > cable in place on the main pipe of the rudder. The cable should be 

 > routed 

 > down into the fuselage at an angle to give flex room to operate the 

 > rudder 

 > without binding on the cable. What I'm suggesting is to use an 

 > inner outer 

 > cable like on bicycle brakes only heavier. (Also used by the Super   

& gt; > Cub.) 
	


[quote] > It wouldn't be pretty but it would work. 

 > 

 > If you don't mind re-skinning the rudder you could install an electric 

 > actuator inside the rudder and actuate the same tab as mentioned 

 > before. 

 > Small electrical control wires can be routed through drilled holes 

 > in the 

 > main pipe and be nicely hidden. This would make for a much cleaner 

 > professional looking job. 

 > 

 > The best method is the one already dismissed.... Get out the 

 > welding torch. 

 > 

 > Noel 

 > 

 >> --

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