Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Questions about ELTs??

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Questions about ELTs??
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

What is the deal with ELT monitoring?  I know that come January 2009, the 121.5 frequency will not be monitored by sarsat (I think that is who monitors it now).  So everyone is talking about the 406 Mhz ELT and after doing a bit or reading, it sounds like this is the way to go. 



Does anyone know if the FAA will require that everyone install a 406 ELT or can we still meet the requirement (after January 2009) with an old 121.5 ELT?  I am all for safety but I would actually prefer to install a 121.5 ELT and then carry my MicroFix 406 PLB on my person.  If for some crazy reason I have to ditch or my plane burns up after a crash and I manage to get out, it would be nice to have the PLB on me not in my burning or sinking plane.  I don't mind spending the money on the unit but I think my option described above is better for me.



So back to the question...is this going to b mandatory that we change to the 406 ELT or will a 121.5 ELT work?

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

Darin,

 I will dig a little, but , I believe i have a reading by the faa that you

do not have to change until something like 2011 and the change now would be

a personal thing.



john



--

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

Darin sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...I would actually prefer to install a 121.5 ELT and then carry my 

MicroFix 406 PLB on my person.


	


Not a bad plan (I have a personal beacon in my Piper Arrow) but what 

happens if the crash renders you unconscious?  You'll still want help 

to be headed your way quickly, right?



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about ELTs??

Mike,



Yes you would want help on the way as quick as possible and unless you activate a PLB, it would not be transmitting unlike an ELT that has a g-switch.  I recently attended a seminar by the owner of preparedpilot.com on surviving a night (or nights) in the backcountry and the way he approaches that question is that he adds "PLB Activation" to his mental emergency procedure.  In other words, if you have an emergency and know you are going down, you will most likely have that second or two to activate your PLB, so add that to your emergency procedure and hit the button before you crash.  Heck, even g-switches have been known to fail so I think manual activation of either PLB or onboard ELT should be added to emergency procedures.  In mountain terrain this would be beneficial simply because you would be almost guaranteed a quick fix not potentially blocked by mountains, etc.  Also, he stressed that you should carry the PLB on your person, not in a bag in the back of the plane or somewhere else because you will most likely forget about it or not have a chance to grab it while scrambling from a burning plane.  They make neoprene straps or holsters for these things that can be attached to you...my buddies use these for the avalanche beacons.  That way it is always on me and easy to get to.  Just some food for thought, but I think the PLB are a great investment.

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:05 pm Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

Darin sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I recently attended a seminar by the owner of preparedpilot.com on 

surviving a night (or nights) in the backcountry and the way he 

approaches that question is that he adds "PLB Activation" to his 

mental emergency procedure.  In other words, if you have an 

emergency and know you are going down, you will most likely have 

that second or two to activate your PLB, so add that to your 

emergency procedure and hit the button before you crash.


	


Apparently he wasn't in my Kitfox with me when I crashed into the 

side of a mountain.  His assumption is unrealistic--there was no time 

to activate anything.



Anyone concerned about the possibility of an emergency landing should 

spend a few extra dollars and replace their 121 MHz ELT with a 406 

MHz model to go along with their personal beacon.  That's what I plan 

to do.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:43 pm Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

On Dec 5, 2007, at 5:26 AM, darinh wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   What is the deal with ELT monitoring?  I know that come January 2009, 

 the 121.5 frequency will not be monitored by sarsat (I think that is 

 who monitors it now).  So everyone is talking about the 406 Mhz ELT 

 and after doing a bit or reading, it sounds like this is the way to 

 go.


	


Okay. I thought that 121.5 was phased out already a few years ago for 

the Cospas-Sarsat satellites. I don't have a ELT but I've had for 

several years now a EPIRB, which is the same thing but for maritime 

use. The only reason the satellites would receive signals in that VFR 

frequency is that, at the time, few people had senders in the UHF 243 

Mhz frequency.

.. after checking with Google, you're right, the phasing out is for 

2009. Hum, so I could still have used my old EPIRB in my Kitfox then. 

It's an old model and I don't have the new frequency 406.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

LarryM

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Genoa, IL

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Questions about ELTs??

Hello Larry,

 

There is no requirement for a 406 Mhz ELT found anywhere in the FARs.  The regulation regarding ELTs is 91.207, and it has not changed in any way since the introduction of the 406 Mhz ELTs or the announcement that the Search and Rescue (SAR) satellites will discontinue receiving 121.5 in the year 2009.  Your existing 121.5 Mhz ELT will continue to meet the requirements of the regulations after 2009, but will no longer be as effective since the SAR satellites will no longer receive the signal.

 

Joe Norris

EAA Aviation Services

EAA Aviation Center, Oshkosh, WI

888-322-4636, extension 6806

jnorris(at)eaa.org

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:57 am Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

I don't know if it was myth or magic, but as I recall, someone once told me 

that all airliners were required to monitor 121.5.  My question is, is this 

a true fact and if it is, are they still doing it?  Also, do ATC facilities 

still monitor 121.5/243.0?

Deke

S5, NE Michigan

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Darin sez:



>I recently attended a seminar by the owner of preparedpilot.com on 

>surviving a night (or nights) in the backcountry and the way he approaches 

>that question is that he adds "PLB Activation" to his mental emergency 

>procedure.  In other words, if you have an emergency and know you are 

>going down, you will most likely have that second or two to activate your 

>PLB, so add that to your emergency procedure and hit the button before you 

>crash.



 Apparently he wasn't in my Kitfox with me when I crashed into the side of 

 a mountain.  His assumption is unrealistic--there was no time to activate 

 anything.



 Anyone concerned about the possibility of an emergency landing should 

 spend a few extra dollars and replace their 121 MHz ELT with a 406 MHz 

 model to go along with their personal beacon.  That's what I plan to do.



 Mike G.

 N728KF

 Phoenix, AZ

Bob

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Damascus, Maryland, USA

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Questions about ELTs??

Michel, nothing personal, but due to where you live you're under a whole different set of rules. For the US owners and pilots, here's a summary from multiple sources, such as AOPA and EAA answers online, plus the FAA:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap6/aim0602.html

1. First generation 1973 TSO-C91 ELTs activate less than 25% of when supposed to, are still legal to keep in use, but not to install.



2. Second-generation 1980s TSO-C91A ELTs (note addition of the "A") activate in 73 percent of accidents and cost about $200. As with the C91 models, the centers will wait for a second confirmation pass (about an hour and a half), searchers have to get organized and launched, and then fly a time-consuming pattern to find these.  Meanwhile, you've got blunt-force trauma and maybe are bleeding.



3. New-generation TSO-C126 ELTs transmit the owner's ID on 406 mhz, making the search area 1/10th of that for a 121.5 mhz unit. A quick phone call by search and rescue authorities to the emergency contact numbers on file can verify whether the signal is valid and set the rescue operation in motion much more quickly. Chief Aircraft sells an Artex ME-406 ELT that puts out a signal on both 121.5 and 406.028 MHz and costs $894.50.  Most 406-based ELTs will take a GPS input, telling searchers right where you are, but this adds a price that depends on the unit.  ELTs have a battery and most can be taken out of the mount to be carried from the airplane, negating the need for a personal beacon.



All bets are off if any ELT antenna is smothered, the ELT &/or antenna are insecurely mounted, or a discount antenna cable rips out.



Non-aviation personal locator beacons (PLBs) are also 406 mhz-based and cost typically $400-$600, but I've seen cheapos (not sure that I personally would trust a cheap PLB) approach $300.



As of February 1, 2009, the 121.5-MHz ELTs will cease being monitored by the international search and rescue satellite system known as COSPAS-SARSAT. After that date the signals will be detected only by ground-based receivers such as those operated by local airports and air traffic control, and if you're lucky, by overflying aircraft. If you go down in a remote area your chances of being found will be greatly diminished. 



Largely in deference to AOPA, an ELT upgrade will not be mandated in the US at this time.  The NTSB has recommended mandating it in the US and so far the FAA has the beaurocratic inertia of not agreeing, as it did in allowing people to keep the original C91 units.  The 406 ELT already has been mandated in many countries, with others following suit. What will happen in future politics is anybody's guess and pointless to debate.



So pay your money and make your idividual choice.  You can buy a C91A (or keep what you have), use a C91 or C91A plus a separate personal locator (remember to register it), or buy a 406-based ELT.  That's why you're called the "owner."



Bob

_________________
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:02 am Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: fox5flyer [fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net]

 I don't know if it was myth or magic, but as I recall, someone once told me 

 that all airliners were required to monitor 121.5.  My question is, is this 

 a true fact and if it is, are they still doing it?


	


When I was sailing long distances, I was also concerned by that because my maritime EPIRB, at the time, didn't had the possibility to send a distress signal everywhere. You see, the first version of the COSPAS-SARSAT was only directly relaying directly to a land station. If you were out of range, it couldn't be used. Remember that those satellites are in a polar orbit, relatively low. Today, the distress signal is stored in the satellite and relayed to the ground when within reach of a station.

Anyway, I was wondering if aircraft would then catch my signals on 121.50. I was told that yes, most airliners do listen to that frequency and they are especially asked to do so when flying over the oceans.

Incidentally, the code that was programmed (my maritime callsign) on that frequency was done using morse signals. While I am a ham and read morse at a rate of 80 characters per minute, I often wondered how many pilot would be able to decode that. But I guess they have cockpit voice recorders or other means of storing radio messages.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Bob [dswaim1119(at)comcast.net]

 Michel, nothing personal, but due to where you live you're under a whole different 

 set of rules. For the US owners and pilots, here's a summary from multiple sources,

 such as AOPA and EAA answers online, plus the FAA:


	


Er ... hum, yes Bob but ... did I write anything that contradicts that? I am not sure what you are telling me. Of course, it would be nice to have a ELT in my Kitfox. Actually I had one but didn't keep it. You see my Kitfox was built under the international Experimental class and, as such, the ELT was compulsory, just like the international PPL license was compulsory. But it was later registered as a Norwegian ultralight aircraft. Nothing to do with the US ultralight definition. In Europe, Ultralight differs from country to country but are more or less the same within a few national rules. We need a license and we need certification. But it is not under our national aviation authorities but rather our national air sport federations.

I have a Norwegian ultralight license and certification for my Kitfox. Maybe it is closer to your new Sport Pilot license. ELT is not compulsory and extremely few of us have it. The reason being that over here, you need to pay a yearly license for radio, transponder and ELT if you have one.

But we are also limited, compared with the Experimental boys. We can't fly IFR, at night, no aerobatics, no on-top clouds, no over sea longer than 10 km from the coast, and we need to wear a helmet. We also have to go to bed before the 'boys' because our 'night' is not the aviation night of six degrees under the horizon but the actual local sunset.



The previous owner of my Kitfox, while flying it as an ultralight kept the ELT because he was flying mostly from his hometown, on the west coast, where there is e.g. no cell phone range over the mountains. But I fly on the east coast, near Oslo, which is much flatter and has a all-around coverage of cell phone. Yes, I know, it doesn't help if you are unconscious in your wrecked plane.



Incidentally, the maritime counterpart, the EPIRB, working on the same system, is part of what is called the GMDSS system, which is a combination of different communication systems. Today, there are no more radio officers on board vessels but an officer with a GMDSS license. When introduced, 90% of maritime distress signals were coming from people sending it unvoluntary. You can only do that on a GMDSS console by pressing two different buttons for a few seconds. Still, people were so 'trigger-happy' that they pressed it, often resulting in an overloading of the coast guard services.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:43 am Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

Interesting

 The subject of personal locator devices is now in great expansion. A typical gadget is the one at

 adventuretrak.com 

 This thing, for a fee, can tell someone with a PC where you are and it can call emergency responders when you tell it to. 



 Expect significant price reductions in the future when the public discovers them. All are gps based. There are good reports from the "Spot" device where a guy had his motorcycle stolen and they were able to locate it. Good thing the guy stashed it where the bad guy did not find it. 



 There are many of these devices out there and when the bad guys steal a vehicle they hide it in a public place and watch to see if the authorities find it before dealing doing anything the vehicle. These devices work world wide via satellite and GPS.

 Regards, Paul

 ===================

 At 05:26 AM 12/5/2007, you wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "LarryM" <CrownLJ(at)verizon.net>



 Hello Larry,

  

 There is no requirement for a 406 Mhz ELT found anywhere in the FARs.  The regulation regarding ELTs is 91.207, and it has not changed in any way since the introduction of the 406 Mhz ELTs or the announcement that the Search and Rescue (SAR) satellites will discontinue receiving 121.5 in the year 2009.  Your existing 121.5 Mhz ELT will continue to meet the requirements of the regulations after 2009, but will no longer be as effective since the SAR satellites will no longer receive the signal.

  

 Joe Norris

 EAA Aviation Services

 EAA Aviation Center, Oshkosh, WI

 888-322-4636, extension 6806

 jnorris(at)eaa.org



 



 

 Read this topic online here:



  http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150552#150552



 



 



 



 Month --

 Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)

 on

  http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 Kitfox-List Email Forum -

  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

  http://forums.matronics.com

     [quote][b]

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

 	  Quote: 	
		  I don't know if it was myth or magic, but as I recall, someone once 

told me that all airliners were required to monitor 121.5.  My 

question is, is this a true fact and if it is, are they still doing 

it?  Also, do ATC facilities still monitor 121.5/243.0?


	


The first communication I attempted after we hit the ground was on 

121.5 MHz.  I decided that trying the Payson airport unicom frequency 

might get us help more quickly, so I tuned to that frequency before I 

got any response.  I was told later that an American Airlines crew 

had, in fact, heard my mayday call but I left the frequency before 

they could respond.



I had to turn off the ELT when I tried to talk on 121.5 MHz because 

it did activate on impact.  When I switched to the Payson frequency I 

turned the ELT back on.



That said, I don't know if airlines crews are "required" to guard 

121.5 MHz.  I don't think 121.5 is going away, it's just that SARSAT 

is not going to monitor it any more.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

akanka(at)kiamichiwb.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

Welllllll, who knows what lurks in the minds of the FA&A????  But one thing

I would guess at is that right now, you can do the VHF beacon for while, but

as happened way back when with transponders, and 90 and 360 channel radios,

they will allow a period (maybe even a few years) to continue use of the

current equipment, then there will be established a date on which they will

mandate all the VHF beacons be replaced with the new UHF beacons.  Seems

like it happens that way with all the newer electronic stuff.  Back when

LORAN was a popular alternative to VOR navigation, the consensus among many

pilots was that there would be a time when LORAN would replace the VOR.

Well, along came GPS, and now the conjecture seems to be that GPS will

replace the VOR.  There is already some indication that GPS will eventually

replace ground-based navigation equipment. An example is the large number of

the old Non-Directional Beacons used for airway navigation, fixes and

approaches have already been decommissioned, and they now use GPS distances

to establish fixes on quite a few terminal instrument approach procedures.

You no longer are required to have an ADF installed to execute many of the

approaches because you can get the same fix info from an instrument approved

GPS, and the fix is indicated on the chart as a distance rather than an

intersecting bearing from a NDB.  In Alaska, they began using an enhanced

GPS system for navigation and approaches a few years ago in the more remote

areas. 

John Hart  



--

akanka(at)kiamichiwb.org
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:39 pm Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

There has been a number of pilots in the Alaska back country who have had

their bacon saved by airliners and military aircraft monitoring 121.5 MHZ

over the years.  The military (at least when I was flying in it 25 years

ago) usually monitored both 121.5 MHZ and 243.0 MHZ on all flights unless

mission requirements prevented it.

John Hart



--

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Questions about ELTs??

John,



I think you are correct.  The FAA may allow the use of the 121.5 ELTs for a while but I would bet they will eventually require that everyone change to a new system.  It looks like the new system will be 406 ELTs but the question is for how long.  I will just go with the 406 and call it good.



Do Not Archive

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

michaega(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

Darin,

   

  The best price I found recently was through Pacific-Coast Avionics. You need to call and tell them you want a good price. The Artex 406Mhz also transmits on 121.5. Artex is located at the same airport as pacific-Coast

   

  darinh <gerns25(at)netscape.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "darinh" 



John,



I think you are correct. The FAA may allow the use of the 121.5 ELTs for a while but I would bet they will eventually require that everyone change to a new system. It looks like the new system will be 406 ELTs but the question is for how long. I will just go with the 406 and call it good.



Do Not Archive



--------

Darin Hawkes

Series 7 (under Construction)

914 Turbo

Ogden, Utah





Read this topic [quote][b]

djbillin(at)mpsaz.org
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

Someone previously mentioned the SPOT system.

http://www.globalcomsatphone.com/spot/service.html



I have looked at this tool and see it as not a backup but a primary

locating system. It is a Satellite system that will track your unit

whenever it is turned on, yet this is oly the beginning...as it tracks

your unit, it transmits a location every 10 minutes to a mapping service

that can be viewed on the internet. So if your significant other pulls up

the internet map, little "spots" of where you have traveled (spaced every

10 minutes) inicate positions. The cost is about $150 for the unit and

service is around $100 per year. Not bad to give the wife that peace of

mind. Those that prefer to stay under the wife radar need not apply ;>)

Dan B

Kitfox IV, Covering

Mesa, AZ

 	  Quote: 	
		   Darin,



   The best price I found recently was through Pacific-Coast Avionics. You

 need to call and tell them you want a good price. The Artex 406Mhz also

 transmits on 121.5. Artex is located at the same airport as

 pacific-Coast



   darinh <gerns25(at)netscape.net> wrote:

   



 John,



 I think you are correct. The FAA may allow the use of the 121.5 ELTs for a

 while but I would bet they will eventually require that everyone change to

 a new system. It looks like the new system will be 406 ELTs but the

 question is for how long. I will just go with the 406 and call it good.



 Do Not Archive



 --------

 Darin Hawkes

 Series 7 (under Construction)

 914 Turbo

 Ogden, Utah





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=150658#150658






	




Industrial Tech.

Skyline High School



The sky is not the limit...

It's only the beginning.

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:55 am Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

Dan sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...Not bad to give the wife that peace of mind. Those that prefer to 

stay under the wife radar need not apply ;>)


	


So, you can give it to one of your buddies to make her think you are 

where you are supposed to be instead of where you really are.  Unless 

your buddy wants to go where you aren't supposed to be...  



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ



Do not archive.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: Questions about ELTs??

406MHz is as good a frequency as is available for the job of an ELT.  It is

linear enough to detect rough position and very little signal will be lost

on the up link.  It is also low enough frequency not to require a

directional dish.  I doubt in the next X yr. you will see a higher frequency

ELT.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum