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Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

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av8rps(at)tznet.com
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Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:12 pm Post subject: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

Paul sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  They're probably just trying to educate those that don't know about 

the designs history...


	


Mis-educate might be more like it.  



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...the reality is that we owe all that to the very 1st Avid Flyer, 

which was designed, built, flown, and manufactured by Dean Wilson 

(circa 1982).  Dan Denney 's involvement came later when he went to 

work for Wilsons company (Light Aero Inc) to help with sales.


	


That's not how the October 1983 issue of Sport Aviation tells the 

story.  Oddly enough, you posted this message to the Kitfox list 

archives yourself last year 

<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=70741&highlight=&sid=47e69b627ef676270e19d24feba71768>:



"Dan Denney of Boise, Idaho was the person with the idea from which 

sprang the Avid Flyer.  He wanted something 'between ultralights and 

homebuilts' that could be flown in the rugged country around Boise, 

getting in and out of almost any reasonably open ground--that's one 

of the reasons for the big wheels.  It's high country out there, so 

the machine would have a very good rate of climb, maximized in that 

direction, in fact, at the expense of cruise and top speed.  And then 

it would have to do all this hauling two people at the lowest 

possible initial and operational cost.  Finally, it had to fold up to 

legal highway towing dimensions and be capable of running down the 

highway at the legal Double Nickle (sic).



"That's a pretty tall order, but Dan had a friend who was uniquely 

qualified to transform that list of requirements into tube and 

fabric, wings and things and end up with an airplane that could fit 

the bill.  Dean Wilson, who also hails from Boise was the man.  Many 

of you know Dean for his work on antique restorations, most notably 

the Avro 504K that was the AAA Grand Champion some years ago...or, 

more recently, as the designer of the long-winged Eagle ag plane. 

Whatever, I think he is about to gain wider notoriety for the Avid 

Flyer than anything he's ever done.



"Both Dan and Dean flew the airplane at Oshkosh in the flight 

demonstration periods.  They blew everyone's minds by accelerating 

rapidly for maybe 75 feet, jerking back so hard the tail skid bumped 

the pavement, then went climbing out at what looked awfully close to 

a 45 degree angle..."



It goes on to say:



"...the Avid Flyer is available in kit form right now.  Usually a new 

design appearing at Oshkosh is a year or more...away from initial 

deliveries to builders.  Dan and Dean not only had their act together 

before they arrived, but had already delivered 14 kits..."



Since they collaborated on the airplane and in the company, it would 

be hard to argue that either "stole" the design from the other.  My 

point is that the Kitfox is the Avid Flyer's sibling, not its bastard 

clone.



In the message quoted above, you yourself said, "I just consider 

N99AF to be the prototype for both the Avid Flyer and the Kitfox, 

giving them both credit."



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...credit for the design most definitely belongs to Dean Wilson...


	


No one is arguing who designed the airplane.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

f.miles.tcp.833(at)clearw
Guest

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

For those who care, Dean us living in Clarkston, Washington and is presently

restoring a Beach staggerwing.



Frank Miles



--

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

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MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

Paul sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...no one except for probably Dean Wilson and Dan Denney know the 

real story about how the concept developed.


	


The article you posted the link to corroborates the previous one well:



"In the early 1980s, Wilson got his chance when an acquaintance 

approached him and asked if he'd design an ultralight. 

Wilson...talked his friend into doing a light Experimental design.



"Wilson's aforementioned 'acquaintance' wanted to partner with him in 

a company to produce kits for the Flyer, but the arrangement didn't 

work out...That 'acquaintance' was Kitfox founder Dan Denney."



Based on Wilson's own testimony, they both had a part in 

conceptualizing the Avid Flyer and forming the company that would 

sell the kits.  No question, it was Wilson's design and he deserves 

the credit for creating the original, but take away either component 

of the equation and what we know today as Kitfoxes and Avid Flyers 

would not exist.  I think both articles reinforces the point that 

Denney didn't copy the Flyer from outside--he was inside from the 

conception.



Would Wilson have gone on to design some great airplanes had be never 

met Denney?  Sure, but we'd all be flying Light Aero Flyers instead 

and who knows what they'd look like.



"He said he wouldn't compete with me after he left, and we shook hands on it."



And the rest is, as they say, history.  I have never heard Denney's 

side of the story, but I don't doubt what Wilson is saying.  I'm sure 

this is why the article doesn't begin with "...a friend approached 

him...".  And why, when I went to Nampa and Caldwell with my dad in 

1991 to check out the two airplanes, the rivalry was in high gear.  I 

used it to my advantage when we were negotiating the purchase price. 





Interesting stuff.  Thanks, Paul.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:39 pm Post subject: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

I,ve enjoyed this discussion and have to add a tidbit.  A local here in 

Cameron Park needed a heavy hauler bush plane to take with him to Africa 

where he served every other quarter of the year as a missionary.  The way he 

told it, it was about ten minutes by air from his compound to the local 

airport, but nearly half a day by ground transport.



He contracted with Dean Wilson to design him such an airplane.  Attached is 

a photo of his creation.  Notice the three tiered "venetian blind" flaperon 

on the upper wing.  The airplane had a cargo door that would accommodate a 

55 gallon drum.  It flew quite well and did in fact get to Africa, where it 

was used as intended until it was damaged in a landing accident.  The owner 

perished in the crash of his Robinson Exec, built for the same purpose as 

the biplane, so further info. is not available.



Lowell



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john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

Wow,

That is something. I have never seen such a wing set up, the lower wing

appears much smaller along with the flaps on the upper wing. It reminds me

the artic explorer Dean built, both in twin and single engine, as a camper.

The original even had a diver exit door in the hull. 



John Oakley



--

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

Isn't Dean Wilson's the Private Explorer with single IO540 the one that had 

the bed in it?  I've tried to find a photo sequence of it, but gave it up. 

I know it existed because I saw it at Oshkosh about ten years ago or more. 

The linkd below are the Arctic Explorer, a larger version and a not very 

descriptive photo of the Private Explorer. 

http://www.coastcomp.com/av/fltline2/avion.htm

http://www.backcountrypilot.org/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=4515

Deke

do not archive



[quote] 



 Wow,

 That is something. I have never seen such a wing set up, the lower wing

 appears much smaller along with the flaps on the upper wing. It reminds me

 the artic explorer Dean built, both in twin and single engine, as a 

 camper.

 The original even had a diver exit door in the hull.



 John Oakley



 --

dholly

Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 40
Location: Upstate NY

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

Quote:

...Kitfox was actually a copy of the first Avids.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Why do Avid folks keep saying this? Neither is a copy of the other, they are an example of divergent evolution.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ 	


Of course the designs diverged, eventually. But, if the original question is whether the first Kitfox was a direct Flyer copy (either an actual Flyer fuse absconded with or one made from a stolen design), John Larsen effectively put that to bed last time it bubbled up.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:21 am    Post subject: Avid/Kitfox  	Reply with quote

Could not help but comment on this thread.

Back in the primordial swirls of time1981 as I recall, Dean Wilson was in the hospital recovering from a minor accident when Dan Denny (Dan and Dean were married to cousins), came to see Dean with the idea of designing an ultra light. Dean was already established as a designer, so soon Dean came up with the Avid Flyer. The prototype AF99 was a tri-- gear as Dan was not tail wheel efficient at the time. The plane was too heavy to qualify as an ultra light, but created great interest in the experimental world. Dean won Best New Design at OSH in 1982. With Dean the designer and Dan the promoter the little plane took off and was soon selling well. Soon problems developed as Dean was very having trouble with Dan's business practices, so the two decided to part company. As Dean tells it they sat down in a restaurant and drew up a agreement wherein Dan agreed not to compete by building a plane like the Avid Flyer. The problem was the agreement was not drawn up by a lawyer so when Dan started making Kitfox, Dean took him to court only to have the judge throw out the agreement. I first flew the KF series 1 with Dan in1983. It was an Avid with cosmetic changes. I ultimately worked for both men and it is a interesting story, too big for this list. 	


I have yet to find public comments from anyone more intimately involved in the Avid/Kitfox history than John, and I see absolutely no hint of a personal agenda or any 'axe-grinding' in his comments above. I take it at face value and as confirmation that the first 'Fox was, for all intent and purpose, a direct Flyer copy. Anyhoo, back to the first Flyer...

  

 	  Quote: 	
		  No one is arguing who designed the airplane. Denney and Wilson designed and built the original Avid Flyer together.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ 	


It certainly seems like you wish to argue this point. Every time the original Flyer design is brought up, you promote Dan Denney's involvement at the design stage as equal to Dean's. Clearly, both men played pivotal roles in the Flyer development and Avid's history, but at what point does one achieve equality as 'co-designer'? For the sake of argument, if Dan simply handed Dean his 'wish list' to out-source the majority of design work as John, Paul AND your magazine article all suggest, I'm at a loss to understand why you believe the bulk of the design credit should not go to Dean.



Dan would have collaborated on the design, but a brilliant conceptual idea on paper is just that. Design brilliance is the process that ultimately takes great ideas from paper to fruition. Each has it's place in bringing product to market of course and, since both are necessary to make 1+1=2, I see neither as more important or significant than the other in Flyer development. However, just as I make a distinction between manufacturing and marketing, I make the distinction between concept and implementation by design and wish to give credit where credit is due to each man for their individual contributions to the joint partnership. 



Regardless of whether you believe this is correct, History shows the Best New Design Award was presented to Dean. If Dan found that to be a personal affront or egregious error, I just find it interesting that he didn't he immediately pack his bags. But here's what I really find interesting... With full respect of his own talents as a designer and recognition for each and every design improvement he added to the original Flyer design after forming Kitfox, I have always wondered why Dan never felt comfortable enough with his abilities to design such an aircraft solely on his own from the git go. Perhaps because he wanted it to be an ultralight, something he had little or no prior experience designing?



Either way, don't know, don't care. I am simply forever grateful these two stars collided. Even if their big egos never reconcile and agree on past history it doesn't detract from the planes being so much fun to build and fly. I will derive far more satisfaction and enjoyment building and flying my Avid than knowing the exact degree of involvement each of them had in conceptualizing, designing, marketing, manufacturing etc. the original Flyer. Truthfully, I think it would be sad to see the mystery and controversy end. In it's own twisted little manner, such a spiced past adds to the allure. Not to mention fodder for the forum boards.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

I have always looked as  Avid was # 1 



Kitfox was a clone of  the Avid and Dan marketed  the hell out of it . 

He did design changes to provide either "curb appeal" or aesthetics for a reason whether it worked better or not   ie  droop tips.   But he did sell alot more airplanes that Wilson did.  They both have their attributes.



There was other clones again like Raven, Mohawk, Eurofox, Ridgerunner and Highlander. 



Either way there are still many Kitfox and Avids around and still flying and some still being built.  It shocks me to see 912 Kitfoxes selling for 22 to 25k  now. 



For the Kitfox supporters that know all of early development then maybe you could chime in and tell  all  what happened to the original Kitfoxes.   Are they flying  or wrecked?

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

DD85 is alive and living in Morgan Utah as a nose dragger now. This is the

blue and grey plane that showed up in all the pictures that Dan and Charlie

did for advertisement. This also is the first plane that had floats in it I

believe. the engine this plane has now is the 912 A that was in the biplane

earlier.

John Oakley

Fox 4 long and short wing

912 ul cap

Day/night vfr

--

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

Great find Deke, I have not seen pictures of this plane for years, I

somewhere had pictures of the single engine one, I believe it was destroyed

in Alaska or northern Canada on takeoff from a short strip. 



John oakely



--

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

Dave sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Kitfox was a clone of the Avid and Dan marketed  the hell out of it.

There was other clones again like Raven, Mohawk, Eurofox, 

Ridgerunner and Highlander.


	


There is no comparison between the Kitfox and the "clones".  The 

clones were produced by people who had nothing to do with the 

original development of the Avid Flyer.  The Kitfox is a direct 

descendent of the Flyer and was produced by people involved in the 

Flyer's original development.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...I'm at a loss to understand why you believe the bulk of the 

design credit should not go to Dean.


	


I never said it shouldn't.  I said that the events that played out 

were due to the interaction between Denney's desire for a new 

airplane and Wilson's design skills and that both ingredients were 

necessary.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Dan would have collaborated on the design, but a brilliant 

conceptual idea on paper is just that. Design brilliance is the 

process that ultimately takes great ideas from paper to fruition. 

Each has it's place in bringing product to market of course but, 

since both are necessary to make 1+1 , I see neither as more 

important or significant than the other in Flyer development.


	


That was exactly my point.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Either way, don't know, don't care. I am simply forever grateful 

these two stars collided.


	


I agree.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:07 am Post subject: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

I belive that both planes are great..the same but different..just like a 

FORD vs CHEVY.same but different.  different strokes for different 

folks..kitfox +avid are like brothers.they are side by side..Steve 

Shinabery N554KF KF2  582 165TT for now



Michael Gibbs wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



> ...I'm at a loss to understand why you believe the bulk of the design 

> credit should not go to Dean.



 I never said it shouldn't.  I said that the events that played out 

 were due to the interaction between Denney's desire for a new airplane 

 and Wilson's design skills and that both ingredients were necessary.



> Dan would have collaborated on the design, but a brilliant conceptual 

> idea on paper is just that. Design brilliance is the process that 

> ultimately takes great ideas from paper to fruition. Each has it's 

> place in bringing product to market of course but, since both are 

> necessary to make 1+1 , I see neither as more important or 

> significant than the other in Flyer development.



 That was exactly my point.



> Either way, don't know, don't care. I am simply forever grateful 

> these two stars collided.



 I agree.



 Mike G.

 N728KF

 Phoenix, AZ

dholly

Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 40
Location: Upstate NY

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

Mike - My apologies if I misunderstood you regarding the original "Flyer" design credits. I have always considered N99AF, proto for the A model and the original "Flyer". And, since I also thought it was pretty much accepted that the 1st Kitfox was a copy with a few cosmetic changes, I surely did find some of your comments confusing at times!



 	  Quote: 	
		  My point is that the Kitfox is the Avid Flyer's sibling, not its bastard

clone. -Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:12 pm



Neither is a copy of the other, they are an example of divergent evolution. -Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:19 pm



The Kitfox can't be a "direct copy" of the Avid Flyer, it IS an Avid

Flyer. It's not like someone came along and copied the design, it

was divergent evolution! -Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:38 am



The Kitfox was not copied from the Avid Flyer, the original "Avid

Flyer" is the ancestor of both aircraft lines. -Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:27 pm 	


Thanks Paul for asking Dean to comment. I admit I never lost sleep not having the complete picture, but I do find the history discussion terrific. Thanks to all for filling in a few more blanks. Perhaps someone is able to further clarify these little details I've always wondered about...



> Were the production A models --exactly-- the same as N99AF, or did they include any notable changes?

> What model Avid kit was the very 1st Kitfox based upon (I've heard both A model and B model)?



I have to chuckle though, perhaps if Jim C had originally said "...Kitfox was actually a copy of the first Avid" rather than "the first Avids", the discussion may never have been started! Thanks Jim!

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:51 pm Post subject: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Kitfox an Avid copy? (Was: KF 3 or KF 4)

 From: oue191(at)yahoo.com

 Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 10:40:05 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dholly" <oue191(at)yahoo.com>

 

 Mike - My apologies if I misunderstood you regarding the original "Flyer" design credits. I have always considered N99AF, proto for the A model to be the original "Flyer". And, since I also thought it was pretty much accepted that the 1st Kitfox was a copy with a few cosmetic changes, I surely did find some of your comments confusing at times!

 

 

 > My point is that the Kitfox is the Avid Flyer's sibling, not its bastard

 > clone. -Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:12 pm

 > 

 > Neither is a copy of the other, they are an example of divergent evolution. -Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:19 pm

 > 

 > The Kitfox can't be a "direct copy" of the Avid Flyer, it IS an Avid

 > Flyer. It's not like someone came along and copied the design, it

 > was divergent evolution! -Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:38 am

 > 

 > The Kitfox was not copied from the Avid Flyer, the original "Avid

 > Flyer" is the ancestor of both aircraft lines. -Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006

 

  
	


  

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have to chuckle though, perhaps if Jim C had originally said "...Kitfox was actually a copy of the first Avid" rather than "the first Avids", the discussion may never have been started! Thanks Jim!

  
	


  

  

 Happy to be of help Doug.  I guess a good cook knows when or how to stir the pot????    Jim Chuk



  

  

  

 > 

 	  Quote: 	
		   http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=152361#152361

  
	


  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 ===================

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


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