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Short Changing Ourselves!!
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kitfoxpilot(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:24 am Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I am not trying to stir up problems on the list, I just wanted to throw this out as a general question.  Why is it that the Kitfox community/builders/owners sell these fine aircraft so cheap?  to me it is like a forclosure, you sell a Fox for say $13,000, $18,000 or even $21,000 when in fact it should be worth $35,000 to $40,000 maybe even more! this just makes it bad for other Kitfox builders/Owers who might try to sell there fine craft, and seriously under values our planes!  When you look at the other LSA aircraft on the used market say a CH701 which are listed at  $40,000 or others which is in the ball park compared to new LSA going for $55,000 and up!  is the Kitfox the YUGO of LSA's or is it the BMW which is quality.  

  

 Ray

Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. Get it now!  [quote][b]

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:15 am Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Ray, this topic comes and goes.  Basically, in my  opinion, it's nothing more than "the market sets the price".  In other  words, one sells his airplane for whatever he/she can get.  There are many  variables involved, ie., how motivated the seller is, model, engine, panel,  quality of build, damage history, location, overall condition, hangared,  etc.  You see a lot of experimental airplanes on Barnstormers, etc asking  55k+ (for example), but that doesn't mean they're getting that much in the  end.  Price it low and it sells quickly.  Price it too high and it  won't sell.  Sure some folks make a profit on their airplanes, but the  truth be known, I doubt that very many of the builders actually get back  what they have in them.  That isn't a Kitfox problem.  It's the  experimental market.  When I sold my Model II, I got pretty close to what I  had in it and I was satisfied because I flew it for nearly 400 hours and that  counts for a lot.

 Just my opinion.

 Deke

 S5 NE Michigan

  

 ---

randy(at)romeolima.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I'm considering starting a Super Sport and have been  wondering the same thing regarding resale value. Having built two RVs, and being  familiar with that market, I know that you can almost always get more than you  have into a flying aircraft, so long as the equipment and build quality are at  least average. In checking around though it seems that with most other kit  aircraft you are lucky to recoup your hard costs. For the later 912  equipped Kitfoxes, what is typical resale versus what is  invested?

  

 Randy Lervold

 Camas, WA

 www.rv-3.com

 www.rv-8.com

  

 [quote]   ---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Sad but true that you will lose 50% of your cash outlay on a Kitplane in many cases. 



I said many times that Kitfoxes are CHEAP  CHHEAP CHEAP  !!!!



look at Challengers selling for over 30k  with a 503 and a Kitfox IV with 912 selling for 22k .  HEll of a deal. 



With a used market like this , is makes it harder to build a new one from investment point of view plus you can fly now for less than 1/2 of the price.    Now a few of us have agreed that the Kitfox Market has likely bottomed out and maybe they will appreciate from here.?

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darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

The market on the RVs is a completely different animal altogether than most other experimental markets...you can actually recoup if not make money on a flying RV.  The way I see it with the kitfox is that if you decide to build one, it is not based on the resale value, it is based on the flying qualities and the fun factor...it is hard to beat a Kitfox for the type of flying it was designed for.  Having said that, resale is always a consideration but I figure if I have to sell it down the road, I will get what I get and chock the loss up to a ton of fun flying hours in the plane.  I know I will never get even close to what I have in my plane back out of it but I don't plan on selling...if life makes me, well then I guess I will deal with that then.  By the way, has anyone checked the prices of new Rotax engines?  A 912s is over $18k!  Prices like these should increase the value of our Kitfoxes to some extent.

_________________
Darin Hawkes
Series 7
914 Turbo
Kaysville, Utah

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Randy, 

  You bring up a good point as well as a question. Why is it with an RV you can re-coup your investment and with a Kitfox, as it stands now...you will loose? I can answer that question...because the Kitfox community has allowed it.  I am currently building a very modified IV and I know I will be very happy with it when it's finished. I will have close to $50,000 in it when all is said and done and it dose grind on me that the market has the mindset it does. 

   

  When I was up at the factory fly-in this last year I had this discussion with John McBean and he made a statement that I hope takes hold. Correct me if I get this wrong John...but he said once the aviation comunity starts looking at the newer Kitfoxes for what they are...then that old mindset should go away. 

   

  These newer planes ARE a high performance ride when you place a 912s out front then add in-flight adjustable  props, electric trim, glass panels, etc...These make for one nice plane and are not comparable to the older generation Kitfoxes. Now I don't want to get into a pissing match with someone that has an older plane...I will be the first to say that I have seen workmanship on older planes that should bring in big bucks in re-sale...alot has to do with the workmanship. My point is simply this...these planes need to be purchased and looked at on an individual basis. If you have never flown in one of the new foxes, you need to try one on before you scoff. Until the sellers start to hold their own in a buyers market, we may never see the change we all would like to see. It will be up to the Kitfox community to take this stand. Looks like I found my soapbox.

  Dan Billingsley

  Mesa, AZ 

  http://www.azshowersolutions.com/Kitfox1.html

   

Randy Lervold <randy(at)romeolima.com> wrote:

  [quote]  .hmmessage P {   PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px  }  BODY.hmmessage {   FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma  }        I'm considering starting a Super Sport and have been wondering the same thing regarding resale value. Having built two RVs, and being familiar with that market, I know that you can almost always get more than you have into a flying aircraft, so long as the equipment and build quality are at least average. In checking around though it seems that with most other kit aircraft you are lucky to recoup your hard costs. For the later 912 equipped Kitfoxes, what is typical resale versus what is invested?

    

  Randy Lervold

  Camas, WA

  www.rv-3.com

  www.rv-8.com

   

  [quote]  ---

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Hummmm.... those old kitfoxes.  Well mine is an old one.  It's light, white, and quite.  My perfect airplane for pure fun.  Sure I don't want to take it on a loooong ride.  But the short ones, it can't be beat.  I to think about the resale.  with the tt being over 1000 now.  I look it this way.  I flew 400 flights so far this year, still flying.  300 hours, still counting.  If I were to rent a cessna at 110 an hour. that comes to 33000 dollars.  OUCH!!  My cost for the fuel was somewhere around 3500 dollars.  I had the cheapest fun imaginable.  Will I ever sell, I'm thinking no.  I'm building a rv7, that's for the long cross country flights, so I guess I'll be looking for a hanger for the 7 and keep the kitfox in it's current hanger.  Money, not a factor, I have plenty.  so I mainly am looking for what makes ME happy and the kitfox does just that,  the rv will also.

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

One thing I forgot.  It's not what you have in the airplane that counts.  gadgets.  It's how light it is, how white it is and how quite is important as well, that's for those pilots that seem to want to turn in everybody under the sun.  But light should be the priority because the airplane will fly different with all the junk on board.  My Rv will be minimal vfr with a 496 hand held and of course a radio, I have leather seats with heat, had to keep the wife happy, other than that, very basic.

ronlee

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I think resale price has a lot has to do with the fact that they are fabric covered airplanes. I now own a CH701 because I can leave it out in the Arizona sun without fear of deteriorating.

_________________
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

 	  Quote: 	
		  Ronlee wrote.... 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I think resale price has a lot has to do with the fact that they are fabric covered airplanes. I now own a CH701 because I can leave it out in the Arizona sun without fear of deteriorating. 

	




Well, a 701  will not attract more dollars than Kitfox, they fit in same puzzle it seems that they lose resale value and sell relatively cheap as we are discussing here like the Kitfox. They are slower cruise as well.

701 not a bad plane at all but a Kitfox will outshine it all the way around. 701 will possibly give a higer AOA climb than a Kitfox but  the climb rate will not be any better. 



I have a friend with a 701 /912 UL  on wheels--  his cruise is the same as my Kitfox IV  /582 on Amphibs   - 85 mph.   On floats  the 701 really slow down to about 70 to 75.

dan(at)azshowersolutions.
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

Well, several of the comments I have seen here tell a bit of a story. Many of you are looking at your Kitfoxes as being a lesser airplane than say a certified plane...sounding almost like a disposable lighter. ...Well, I got 2000 lights out of her and got my money's worth...huh? If these planes are built well they are better than any spam can you can rent. With that mindset we can forget it. I thought Kitfoxers knew what they had and have what they know is the best plane in its class. And I have trouble seeing the resale is low because it is a fabric plane. Have you priced a Piper Cub lately? I had a Cub driver in my EAA chapter tell me himself that after he flew with a Kitfox he now holds a high respect for them. He couldn't quit talking about how great they are. Of course we all know this...so where is the problem? 

  Dan B



ronlee <rlee468(at)comcast.net> wrote:

  [quote][b]

Kcozik(at)cablespeed.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I think resale price has a lot has to do with the fact that they are fabric 

covered airplanes.........



Hasn't hurt the cubs at all.  It is the market that determines what your 

kitfox is worth.  If you choose to list it above what the market is paying, 

most of the time it will be just that, listed.  I built mine with no 

intention to sell but like Darin, will cross that bridge when the time 

comes.  On the other side of the coin, I bought my model 4 with a 912 second 

hand and flying.  When it came time to sell I saw a return of almost 20% 

after 2 years of flying.

Kevin Cozik

Series 6-7

914 Turbo

Czech floats

Lansing Michigan

---

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I touched on it a little, they are hard to fly, according to so called pilots.



I hear it all the time, take the discussion that was on the RV group a few weeks ago, they really cut the kitfox down.  It angered me and a few others, but what can we do when the general pilot is lazy and doesn't want to use a rudder.  



I wouldn't trade my kitfox for any certified aircraft, they are boring.  



I love my fox and that's that.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

 	  Quote: 	
		  take the discussion that was on the RV group a few weeks ago, they really cut the kitfox down. It angered me and a few others 	


Likely some are intimdated by things their RV cannot do. 



post this to them http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=kitfoxflyer



and saw  Kitfox flying looks cool and Easy ...........



it only difficult if you cannot do it

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

That must be why I get complaints to the faa all the time from other so called pilots.  Nothing the faa can do, because I get approval of all things I do, there is a tower.



Which comes to another discussion brought out on the rv list.  100LL, there was a comment made that the lead causes people to go stupid and get mean.  Must be why pilots are that way, too much sniffing of the 100LL and not washing their hands and eating afterwords.  You know, checking their fuel tanks.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:34 am Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I put it down to being a little like motorcycles:  You have Harleys and

everything else.  Harleys have the best sound no doubt but if you really

want to have fun try a rice rocket.

With the planes, the certified spam cans have the nicest sound (to me) but

the closest thing I've seen to matching my 'Fox for fun is a Super Cub with

160 hp!  And a tag a lot higher than what I spent for the plane, wheels,

skis and composite floats.  I expect in fuel and insurance the cub probably

comes out to around $100/hr to fly where my 'Fox is less than 25 (gas went

up).



Right now the fox will get off and on the water as fast if not faster than

the cub.  The only thing the Cub has going for it is the fact if you can get

it in the plane you can probably fly with it.  4 quarters of moose... if it

will fit it will fly.  I expect you could fly the 'Fox with two quarters

tied to the struts.



By next summer I hope to have my 912 installed.  I'm expecting longer take

off runs but better climbs and a marginally faster cruise.  I also expect to

be 30 lb closer to MTOW.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Don McIntosh

Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 24
Location: Sandpoint, Idaho

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I would say quite definitely. I am generally just a lurker on this site but I finally had to get up on my soapbox and speak. I canâ€™t believe you guys think these AIRPLANES are worth only what a few people are giving them away on Ebay for! The market price of anything is based on recent â€œcomparableâ€ sales of similar items. I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no idea of the value of his Kitfox, and didnâ€™t remember to put any value on the 1000 to 1500 hours he put into building it, so she basically gave it away (just to be rid of it) to some spam-canner that said it was just a TOY and only worth $15K tops.  Now someone finds out about this â€œsaleâ€ and puts his on Ebay (how did Ebay get to be the marketplace for airplanes anyway? Probably a new thread here...) because it is THE quick way to sell it, and he wasnâ€™t the one that built it either, so there goes another Kitfox for way below a reasonable price. I believe that part of the problem the Model IIIs and IVs are having with value now is that the majority of current owners either did not build the plane, or do not remember what it took to build it and are also only recovering the cost they put into it in yesterdayâ€™s dollars instead of current dollars. Do you realize the cost of the 100 HP Rotax 912S just went up to $19,500 +/- by itself? I think some out there are treating the IVs like a toy â€“ an ultralight maybe, and it is actually a real airplane. Look at the competition for Kitfoxes â€“ they are LSAs which are either 60+ year old Piper Cubs/Vagabonds/Champs/Chiefs that are FABRIC airplanes that are selling for $20 to 30K (and generally need another $10K of work to be safe or really as flyable as any Kitfox), or they are $80 to 120K S-LSAs! Make some of these prospective buyers go fly the competition first before they make you an offer on your Kitfox (I guess you canâ€™t do this on Ebay). The majority of the flying Series 7s that have sold, that I know about, have gone in the $70 to 90K range, which seems reasonable for this airplane.  Sure, there are always going to be some â€œfire salesâ€ out there and there always will be, but some of the things I brought up should be considered when placing a value on your Kitfox to sell it. Gentlemen, these are real airplanes and yes, you are shortchanging yourselves, not to mention hurting the rest of us.

_________________
Don McIntosh
Kitfox Series 7
Jabiru 3300

avidfox

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 87

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:56 pm Post subject: Short Changing Ourselves!!

 	  Quote: 	
		   	
 Mr.McIntosh

You wrote....

  	  Quote: 	
		  

"I believe some old guy died a ways back and his old widow had no idea of the value of his Kitfox,..... " 	
 

How long ago..., or In which state did this incidence occur?

  

 Steve B.

 84KF

  [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:59 am Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

 	  Quote: 	
		   Do you realize the cost of the 100 HP Rotax 912S just went up to $19,500 +/- by itself? I think some out there are treating the IVs like a toy â€“ an ultralight maybe, and it is actually a real airplane. Look at the competition for Kitfoxes â€“ they are LSAs which are either 60+ year old Piper Cubs/Vagabonds/Champs/Chiefs that are FABRIC airplanes that are selling for $20 to 30K (and generally need another $10K of work to be safe or really as flyable as any Kitfox), 	


Don you make some great points. I Too have been bewildered why Kitfox are SO DAMN CHEAP!!!!



According to some on supercub.org forum Kitfox are not real airplanes like cubs .....  HEll who wold want a cub that is 60 years old and got worse performances ?



Look at  it this way most CUBS cannot CARRY their won weight on top of empty weight.  Can a Kitfox ?   -- Depends on empty weight of course.

NEw Super sprt i think is about 700 lbs or so and it goes to 1550 ? 

MY  1050 is  550 empty on wheels and can carry me a nd passenger    450lbs plus 18 gals of gas  (110lbs plus another 6 gals in  3  - 2 gal jerry ans bedind seat

and about 700 emtpy on amphibs and can carry same 2 guys plus baggage plus 16 more gallons in floats   --add it up

700 + 110 plus 450 + 96 lbs + case beer and food.  --yeah it adds up eh !!

even takes  40 to 50 secdons to get off water ..... try loading a 65 HP cub to  2300 to 2500 lbs. 

certainly for referance only  <===DISCLAIMER   <big>

Gary

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 13
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Short Changing Ourselves!!

I bought an unbuilt Kitfox IV on Ebay back in Sept/07.  It never met the minimum reserve but the elderly (second) owner wanted it sold after the auction.  The top 3 bidders were contacted by email and I purchased it for 22K (the other 2 guys must of walked away from their computers at the close of bidding  ).  Add delivery, exchange, taxes and my price of admission to the Kitfox club was around 25K.  I have no regrets, despite the fact a ready to fly machine can be had for the same money.  I wanted the total fly what you built experience with the full knowledge that my labour will be probably be worth little in the end.

_________________
Gary Del Bel Belluz
Toronto, IV / 912UL
Just getting started

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