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GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

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jareds(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

Thank you all for the great tips.

Many i would have NEVER thought of but fortunately i still have the big flat Lawnmower tires on with no pants.  I also have a clutch on my 582 so starts are easy now that i have a GOOD ground on my plane.  And THANK GOD FOR DUCT TAPE.  Radiator covered with one strip when its around freezing keeps my temps at 170.



Survival gear is the big one where i'm at.  It would be a half day walk to get anywhere warm and likely if injured no way to get there so other than the first aid i need to take some other options along.



Cold hasn't stopp-ed me from flying yet and the Mountain Lion and variety of other wildlife is super visible in the snow!



Thanks again.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: Jim_and_Lucy Chuk <thesupe(at)hotmail.com>

Date: 2007/12/19 Wed PM 11:15:18 CST

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Any Winter Flying Tips


	


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The only concerns I have had flying my Avid B and last winter the Mark IV was staying warm.  No problems with the engine and cold weather.  When you think about it, these engines are basicly detuned snomobile engines (plus some other changes) and they were made to run in the winter.  I did put synthetic oil in the gearboxes so the engine would turn over and start easier.  I've always liked the winter flying better than summer.  Better lift, smoother air and lots of emergency fields with the frozen lakes if you need them.  Around here, there are more trees than fields.  On the heat issue, I bought an electric "hot seat" from J C Whitney that plugged into a cigaret lighter.  I have a power point in the plane and I would plug into that.  I would slip the hot seat into the back of my snomobile suit and usually had to run it on low or it would be to hot.  $20.00 and worth it!!  Never had trouble landing on lakes, till last week when some slush flew up and wrecked my prop.   I did replace the 582 in my Mk IV last summer with a Jabiru and now have a much better heat setup and have not been useing the hotseat.  Winter is not the time to wish you were flying----- go do it!!   Just my 2 cents worth.  Jim Chuk<BR><BR>> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:27:17 -0600<BR>> From: jareds(at)verizon.net<BR>> Subject: Any Winter Flying Tips<BR>> To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com<BR>> <BR>> 



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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

Duct Tape... north of the 49th it's well known as "the Handyman's Secret Weapon".



Noel



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Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

I have one, be gentle on stick movements on landing.  They get pretty sensitive with the colder weather.  You will balloon on landing so be careful  not to pull back as much as you do in the summer.  Another one, don't use the brakes.  If you do, make sure you use them both at the same time.  You can actually fly the kitfox without ever using the brakes.  I do like to put the brakes on in the snow and ice and taxi with the wheels locked.  fun stuff.

LarryM

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Genoa, IL

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: Re: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

Is it possible that is not the controls being too sensitive, but rather more effective due to the cold air being more dense.  That said, perhaps you can slow down a bit to avoid the ballooning.



larry



"I have one, be gentle on stick movements on landing.  They get pretty sensitive with the colder weather.  You will balloon on landing so be careful  not to pull back as much as you do in the summer. "

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: LarryM [CrownLJ(at)verizon.net] 

 Is it possible that is not the controls being too sensitive, but rather more effective

 due to the cold air being more dense.


	


Years ago, I was reading in a yachting magazine about the wind being 'stronger' in the winter time. Some sailors had the impression that, for a same wind force, the boat was heeling more in the winter.

Apparently, while it is true due to the denser air, it is hardly noticeable and the feeling that the wind was 'stronger' in the winter came from a very subjective feeling since cold winds 'bite' more than warm ones.

As pilots we know that colder and denser air is noticeable in e.g. our climb rate: denser air in the carb, denser air around the wing, it works like magic.

But would that make the controls more sensitive? I am not sure. Denser air means greater coefficient of lift but also greater coefficient of drag. Is'nt it that equilibrium that keeps our aircraft in the air and affects the control surfaces?



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

Could this denser air be the reason that I'm noticing a reduction in  

available rpm during climbout? I started to notice a few weeks ago  

that my engine is not turning the same rpm on climbout as it did  

earlier. Thinking that it might have been some carb work that I did,  

I changed back to original equipment, and that didn't help. To be  

truthful, I hadn't paid any attention to climbout rpm up until  

recently, since I've logged so many hours on the plane and got  

complacent, but now I'm concerned.

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/440+ hrs

On Dec 21, 2007, at 7:47 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  > From: LarryM [CrownLJ(at)verizon.net]

> Is it possible that is not the controls being too sensitive, but  

> rather more effective

> due to the cold air being more dense.

 Years ago, I was reading in a yachting magazine about the wind  

 being 'stronger' in the winter time. Some sailors had the  

 impression that, for a same wind force, the boat was heeling more  

 in the winter.

 Apparently, while it is true due to the denser air, it is hardly  

 noticeable and the feeling that the wind was 'stronger' in the  

 winter came from a very subjective feeling since cold winds 'bite'  

 more than warm ones.

 As pilots we know that colder and denser air is noticeable in e.g.  

 our climb rate: denser air in the carb, denser air around the wing,  

 it works like magic.

 But would that make the controls more sensitive? I am not sure.  

 Denser air means greater coefficient of lift but also greater  

 coefficient of drag. Is'nt it that equilibrium that keeps our  

 aircraft in the air and affects the control surfaces?

 Cheers,

 Michel Verheughe

 Norway

 Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

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 forums.matronics.com</a>

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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: Re: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

 	  LarryM wrote: 	
		  Is it possible that is not the controls being too sensitive, but rather more effective due to the cold air being more dense.  That said, perhaps you can slow down a bit to avoid the ballooning.



larry



"I have one, be gentle on stick movements on landing.  They get pretty sensitive with the colder weather.  You will balloon on landing so be careful  not to pull back as much as you do in the summer. " 	




Call it what you want, but you will cut into the denser air even at slow speed.  The controls get more sensitive,  is the best way to describe it.



I'm just giving a warning that full back just as you settle WILL put that nose way up and then go up and then you stall and drop or you catch it and put in power and do a go around.  It will surprise you so be careful, the colder air is nice, but it will bite you if you don't watch it.

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: Re: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

Could this denser air be the reason that I'm noticing a reduction in 

available rpm during climbout? I started to notice a few weeks ago 

that my engine is not turning the same rpm on climbout as it did 

earlier. Thinking that it might have been some carb work that I did, 

I changed back to original equipment, and that didn't help. To be 

truthful, I hadn't paid any attention to climbout rpm up until 

recently, since I've logged so many hours on the plane and got 

complacent, but now I'm concerned. 



Lynn,

you are spot on with your observations.  I to have noticed a reduction in my rpm.  At wide open throttle static test before takeoff I was 150rpm lower at 23 degrees outside compared to 40 degrees. This was an observation taken within a weeks time.  Temps changed within that week that much, I also flew every day so I could make the call.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:39 am Post subject: Re: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

Put my skis on late day yesterday.



got in about 30s mins of flying --



what a blast !!!

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Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: Re: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

 	  Quote: 	
		  Could this denser air be the reason that I'm noticing a reduction in 

available rpm during climbout? 	




Fuel mixture will be leaner than in warm thiner air.  You might try richening the mixture a bit to see if rpm increases.

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Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
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Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

Well, if I am "spot on," it's due to information I got from Deke,  

who's been flying longer than me by a long shot. He mentioned density  

to me the other night via phone, but it seemed to not be my problem  

at first. Then I got to thinking about my recent rpm during takeoff  

and climbout, and I probably hadn't been paying attention, because I  

was more looking at EGT's, CHT's and feeling the effects of my new  

heater modifications. My rpm's could have been getting lower and  

lower with the changes in air density, and I wouldn't have noticed.  

Then when I did some carb mods, I DID pay attention and "suddenly" I  

had lost rpm. Having gone back to Jabiru's original carb specs, and  

not seeing any change to rpm's, I started to look for other engine  

problems. Just changed plugs today, but am not looking for any great  

jump in revs, just doing normal maintenance.

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/440+ hrs

On Dec 21, 2007, at 10:03 AM, kitfoxmike wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <customtrans(at)qwest.net>



 Could this denser air be the reason that I'm noticing a reduction in

 available rpm during climbout? I started to notice a few weeks ago

 that my engine is not turning the same rpm on climbout as it did

 earlier. Thinking that it might have been some carb work that I did,

 I changed back to original equipment, and that didn't help. To be

 truthful, I hadn't paid any attention to climbout rpm up until

 recently, since I've logged so many hours on the plane and got

 complacent, but now I'm concerned.



 Lynn,

 you are spot on with your observations.  I to have noticed a  

 reduction in my rpm.  At wide open throttle static test before  

 takeoff I was 150rpm lower at 23 degrees outside compared to 40  

 degrees. This was an observation taken within a weeks time.  Temps  

 changed within that week that much, I also flew every day so I  

 could make the call.



 --------

 kitfoxmike

 model IV, 1200

 speedster

 912ul

 building

 RV7a

 slowbuild wings, fuse, finish kit

 &quot;if you're not getting razzed from pilots or the FAA then  

 you're not flying enough&quot;

 Do not archive





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=153504#153504

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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:15 pm Post subject: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

This something I noticed on my old Aeronca Champ. A-65 also, less RPM in 

winter but better thrust and climb.



Jan



---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:56 pm Post subject: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

Thanks, Jan...this is what I was hoping would happen in this  

thread...people who have flown with fixed-pitch props, comparing the  

seasonal changes with engine output.

Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/440+ hrs

do not archive

On Dec 21, 2007, at 4:14 PM, JC Propeller Design wrote:



[quote] 

 <propellerdesign(at)tele2.se>



 This something I noticed on my old Aeronca Champ. A-65 also, less  

 RPM in winter but better thrust and climb.



 Jan



 ---

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

could be that the prop is digging in, pushing more air molecules. So the rpms drop. but you have more thrust.

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:17 am Post subject: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

On Dec 22, 2007, at 12:22 AM, kitfoxmike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   could be that the prop is digging in, pushing more air molecules.  So 

 the rpms drop.  but you have more thrust.


	


In my very humble opinion:

I think it's about something called density altitude. On a warm day, 

it's like flying higher, you'll need a longer take-off distance. Now, 

we have a simple way to analyse this: Say, if you fly at 10,000 feet, 

will your Kitfox:

1) Run at a higher RPM?

2) Have less sensitive controls?



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

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michaelgibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

Michel sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		   ...if you fly at 10,000 feet, will your Kitfox:

 1) Run at a higher RPM?

 2) Have less sensitive controls?


	


I did not take notice in my Kitfox but I can tell you that when I took my old normally-aspirated Arrow up to 14,000 feet one day (just barely!) the controls were quite sluggish.  The Turbo Arrow handles nicely up into the flight levels but it has an entirely different wing, much larger control surfaces and the turbocharger allows it to operate at more normal speeds (the old Arrow was just holding altitude at Vy).



My Kitfox and both Arrows have adjustable pitch props, so I don't know what happens to RPM.



Mike G.

N728KF

Phoenix, AZ

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

 	  Michel wrote: 	
		  On Dec 22, 2007, at 12:22 AM, kitfoxmike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   could be that the prop is digging in, pushing more air molecules.  So 

 the rpms drop.  but you have more thrust.



	


In my very humble opinion:

I think it's about something called density altitude. On a warm day, 

it's like flying higher, you'll need a longer take-off distance. Now, 

we have a simple way to analyse this: Say, if you fly at 10,000 feet, 

will your Kitfox:

1) Run at a higher RPM?

2) Have less sensitive controls?



Cheers,



Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200 	
    



sorry but me and my kitfox get scared at that altitude.

Bob

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Damascus, Maryland, USA

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:39 am Post subject: Re: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

From the engineering perspective, the increased effectivity of controls and reduced rpm from a fixed pitch prop should be expected.  Density altitude is the pilot's term, while the engineers use a reference to standard day conditions. Same thing, just different frames of reference.  KitFoxMike and Michel are right, as usual.



With respect to flight controls, each simply changes the coefficient of lift for the percentage of wing or tail surface that they are applicable to.  In the KF series, the flight controls apply to the whole wing and whole tail. So if you think in terms of % change from standard day conditions for a given coefficient of lift, it means that the wing or tail can generate more lift and drag. Lift being a bigger number, we get a bigger benefit in it than in drag and the airplane takes of quicker, climbs better, but cruises a bit slower.



Same applies to the engine and prop.  The direct reason that your rpm has gone down is that the prop is moving a thicker fluid (air) and that takes more energy. But the engine is relatively inefficient at turning fuel and air into mechanical power. You can re-jet or play with your mixture control, but the bigger change is in the propeller side of the powerplant equation.



Bob

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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:58 am Post subject: GREAT STUFF Any Winter Flying Tips

On Dec 23, 2007, at 2:16 AM, kitfoxmike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   sorry but me and my kitfox get scared at that altitude.


	


.. me too! That's why I was asking the other pilots! 

Mike answers that at 14,000 ft his controls feel sluggish. Maybe he was 

suffering from hypoxia? 

Seriously, I don't know. I understand Bob's arguments about 

coefficients of lift and drag but ... as we talked about fluttering and 

Vne at altitude ... maybe there is something there?

Incidentally, the X-Plane flight simulator gives not two but three 

coefficients for all airfoils: Lift, drag and moment. The latter is the 

force that 'twists' an airfoil. Symmetrical airfoils have no moment, 

asymmetrical have a negative moment for positive AoA and vice-versa. 

E.g. a 'negative moment' for a wing means a pitch down effect.

Are we getting any closer? I don't know but my wife says it's time for 

me to get dressed up as we'll be spending Christmas eve at our son's 

house together with our grand-daughter.

Have a very nice Christmas, everyone!



Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200



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