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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: Engine choices - was kitfox III 0-235 |
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Has anyone done a comparative analysis of power, weight and cost (both up-front and operational) for those engines we commonly install in our Kitfoxes? This would not only help builders decide initially but also those of us facing the expensive prospect of overhauling 582's as they approach their very short TBO's.
Michel, you're an analytical sort and I know you went through this a few years back, deciding on the Jab 2200. Can you tell us how you reached your decision?
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to the entire Kitfox community.
patrick reilly <patreilly43(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote] .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } Dee, Thanks for info. everybody says 0-235 too heavy. I'd love the Jab 2200 but I hav e agood 582. For now I guess I'll get her flying with the 2 stroke. Pat REilly
[quote] From: henrysfork1(at)msn.com
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: kitfox III 0-235
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 16:15:14 -0700
You might consider the Jab. 2200. Good engine, four stroke, air cooled and 2000 hrs TBO. 0-235 probably a wee bit heavy.
Dee Young
Model II
Do Not Archive
[quote] ---
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Michel
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:42 am Post subject: Engine choices - was kitfox III 0-235 |
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On Dec 24, 2007, at 5:37 PM, Marco Menezes wrote:
| Quote: | Michel, you're an analytical sort
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Good Lord, am I? Please don't tell my wife! 
| Quote: | and I know you went through this a few years back, deciding on the
Jab 2200. Can you tell us how you reached your decision?
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With pleasure. I bought four years ago a Kitfox 3 with Rotax 582 and
170 hours. I enjoyed the combination for another 100 hours and then I
felt that, while a nice engine, the 582 was narrowing it's 300 hours
TBO and I had to make a decision. Meanwhile, I also wanted to fly
long-distances to e.g. Belgium, my country of birth.
The evident choice would have been the 912; the Kitfox 3 was designed
for both Rotax engines. But, looking at alternatives, I found that the
Jabiru 2200 was very reliable, long TBO (2,000 hours) and needed very
little maintenance. Also, the Jabiru is an air-cooled boxer engine, the
type of engine that has been installed in aircraft for ... nearly a
century.
With my philosophy than less is more, I opted for the Jabiru and the
engine lived up to all my expectations. I have now 240 hours on it.
However, here are a few points to remember:
1) The Jabiru won't fit in the Kitfox 3 without modifying the cowling.
There are several solutions; I opted for re-moulding myself the entire
front end.
2) The key to a well running air-cooled engine is to provide a good
cooling by shaping properly the cowling. If anything, mine does a
perfect job, even cooling too much on e.g. long descent.
3) Jabiru build their engines to fit their Jabiru aircraft. If you want
to be safe, you should try to reproduce as much as possible a Jabiru
installation. I use the Jabiru airbox, Jabiru oi-cooler, Jabiru prop,
etc. Some people think the know better and install the engine
differently. It's often them who have problems later.
4) The Jabiru runs WOT at 3100 RPM, twice as slow as a Rotax. It means
less engine wear but also less torque and while the 2200 has 20 HP more
than the 582, its climbing performance isn't better. But, at cruise
level, I keep 85 MPH with as little as 2,600 RPM.
5) Because of the direct drive and air-cooling, the 2200 is only 12 kg
heavier than the 582. I didn't need to change anything to keep the CoG
within the marks. But the direct drive means that the propeller's
choice is very limited: A two-blades wooden prop is what should be used
although some composite props are coming on the market too.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
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dave
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: Re: Engine choices - was kitfox III 0-235 |
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Michel,
Great report on the Jab vs the 582 , totally un-biased from a guy who has had both engines and ran both with great success!!
Happy Holidays all !
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av8rps(at)tznet.com
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:32 am Post subject: Engine choices - was kitfox III 0-235 |
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Michel (and any other Jabiru 2200 enthusiasts),
Not sure if you ever wander over onto the Avid Yahoo site or not, but if not
I think this e-mail from one of the Jabiru Avid (aka; JAVID) guys has really
shown some great results from his install of the 2200. After reading all of
his postings over the past year or so, I think he has the figured out the
right prop combination for the Jab 2200 on STOL airframes like Avids and
Kitfoxes. It seems his Avid is outperforming most all other JAVIDs out
there. So maybe this info could be useful to others. I know Lynn Matteson
right here on our group has also been verys successful with this 2200 in his
Fox (Btw Lynn - NICE article in Sport Pilot!), but thought I'd share this
for anyone else that might be considering a Jab 2200.
I have to admit I was one of the biggest naysayers out there about using a
Jab engine in our airplanes, as I really like the 912. But I'm pretty well
convinced after hearing (and seeing) abot them more from people that own
them, they offer another good engine option for out favorite Avids and
Kitfoxes. Especially on the earlier and lighter airframes. So here's what
the owner of a Jabiru powered Avid B-model has to say about his airplanes
performance;
(and for video proof of what he states, check out the YouTube video he
posted at http://youtube.com/watch?v=raAV2r3LSgU ) Pretty impressive!
******original message from skypics234(at)aol.com******
My Avid is...
Model B
STOL wings 29.9 feet
Empty weight 550
My weight 160
Jab 2200 with hyd lifters (at) 85 HP (430 hours) These engines don't peak out
until after 50 hours break-in.
Prop is Tennessee 64 x 36 wood 5 pounds (beautiful workmanship)
T/O and climb out RPM 2900 & 70 MPH
Climb rate solo 20 gallons is 1300-1400 FPM at 70 M PH (70 F OAT) 1000-1100
at 80 MPH
cruise at 2800 RPM and 3500 MSL OAT 65F is 95-100 MPH TAS at 3.0-3.2 GPH
At 12,500 MSL (45 F OAT) cruise is 105-110 TAS and 2.8 GPH
Add 10 MPH to cruise speeds and subtract 200 FPM climb using a Sensenich 62
x 42 (moderate workmanship) borrowed from a friend.
John M
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: Engine choices - was kitfox III 0-235 |
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On Dec 26, 2007, at 10:31 AM, Paul Seehafer wrote:
| Quote: |
Michel (and any other Jabiru 2200 enthusiasts),
I know Lynn Matteson right here on our group has also been verys
successful with this 2200 in his Fox (Btw Lynn - NICE article in
Sport Pilot!), but thought I'd share this for anyone else that
might be considering a Jab 2200.
****************************
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Thanks, Paul. I like my Jabiru engine, but with my current prop...a
Sensenich 62x46....my climb rate is not as good as John M's, but my
empty weight is 110 lbs more, and my prop is much steeper than his
Tennessee, and a little bit steeper than his borrowed Sensenich. And
I guess the Avid will outclimb the 'fox IV, given the exact same set
of circumstances, won't it? My climb rate of anywhere between
800-1200 fpm, depending on OAT, is usually less than reports of the
912 family. I'd really like to try a different prop, and I may
someday, but for now, I'm reasonably happy with what I've got, and
I'm not too interested in chasing the numbers at this time.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/450+ hrs
****************************
[quote] I have to admit I was one of the biggest naysayers out there about
using a Jab engine in our airplanes, as I really like the 912. But
I'm pretty well convinced after hearing (and seeing) abot them more
from people that own them, they offer another good engine option
for out favorite Avids and Kitfoxes. Especially on the earlier and
lighter airframes. So here's what the owner of a Jabiru powered
Avid B-model has to say about his airplanes performance;
(and for video proof of what he states, check out the YouTube video
he posted at http://youtube.com/watch?v=raAV2r3LSgU ) Pretty
impressive!
******original message from skypics234(at)aol.com******
My Avid is...
Model B
STOL wings 29.9 feet
Empty weight 550
My weight 160
Jab 2200 with hyd lifters (at) 85 HP (430 hours) These engines don't
peak out
until after 50 hours break-in.
Prop is Tennessee 64 x 36 wood 5 pounds (beautiful workmanship)
T/O and climb out RPM 2900 & 70 MPH
Climb rate solo 20 gallons is 1300-1400 FPM at 70 M PH (70 F OAT)
1000-1100
at 80 MPH
cruise at 2800 RPM and 3500 MSL OAT 65F is 95-100 MPH TAS at
3.0-3.2 GPH
At 12,500 MSL (45 F OAT) cruise is 105-110 TAS and 2.8 GPH
Add 10 MPH to cruise speeds and subtract 200 FPM climb using a
Sensenich 62
x 42 (moderate workmanship) borrowed from a friend.
John M
---
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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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JohnA
Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 26
Location: Woodland, CA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: Engine choices - was kitfox III 0-235 |
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When I build my Kitfox, I'm planning on installing a C-85. I have the
engine - freshly overhauled to new specs - so that drove the choice of
engine. During the overhaul, the O-200 crankshaft and pistons were
installed - which makes it effectively an O-200 (100hp).
Who else has installed heavier engines like the C-85 or O-200 and what
issues were encountered? What props were chosen?
John Alexander
Woodland, CA
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John Alexander
Woodland, CA |
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