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Rivet, Rivet !

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notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

No I m not a frog.  Just a 601 XL builder  thats not perfect.  My aircraft will be close but it too is not  perfect.

 I dont think any machine is perfect.  So,,,  that brings me to this:

 In a "few" cases I ve had to drill out a pop  rivet.  I really didnt mess up a part or two but was unhappy with fit,  looks, operation and for other reasons..  whatever..

 Whats been on my mind is the hole left in the  aluminum after drilling out the rivet.   I bet all of Zenith builders  have learned about drilling out these things..

 My real question for discussion is this:  If  the hole isnt perfectly round after drilling, will the aluminum rivet fill  the odd shape of the new hole ?    I say yes.  Yes to a  point.

 I m not talking about a football shape, just an out  of round hole..

 I ve squeezed standard rivets with my squeezer  thousands of times in the past and watched as the rivet conformed to the  hole.  I assume the pop type rivets do the same...

  

 Amazing how I wake up at night thinking about  "things".

  

 Steve 601XL QBK

  

    [quote][b]

skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

I would say that if the hole has become oblonged, you would be better off redrilling it to the next larger sized rivet.  The last thing I would want on my aircraft is a sloppy rivet.  If left go, I would certainly think that over time, it would work its way loose and then you would have a "smoking rivet" (dark powder around the loose rivet) and place for potential structural failure.  Then again, what do I know.  I'm not an engineer nor an A & P.   I would suggest you call Zenith Air and ASK one of their engineers just to make positive sure.  Please let us know what they say about it.

   

  Happy New Year everyone.

  Larry



       [quote][b]

psm(at)ATT.NET
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:12 am Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

Hi Steve,



 First, let me ask if you really mean Pop rivet or Avex Rivet.  If you are using hardware store Pop Rivets then you might consider changing your airplane into a lawn ornament and starting over.



 Solid rivets do a nice job of filling whatever hole they are in when they are squeezed or otherwise set in place.  This also happens to some degree with Avex rivets, but not nearly as much.  The forces and vectors (direction of forces) in the Avex rivet means most of the force is used to form the "Shop" head, and very  little goes to deforming the tube to fill the hole.  This may not be a problem, or in cases where the hole is badly deformed the resulting bond could be too weak.



 You should be able to drill out a rivet without causing any deformity to the hole.  I start with the smallest drill I have (#40) and use the next larger drills while drilling part way through the rivet until reaching the same size drill as the one that finished the rivet hole before setting the rivet.  This last drill will spin the head off the rivet without even entering the hole.  This is all done at low speeds in my battery powered drill.  (I doubt you would get such good results in a high speed air drill.)  You can then push the other part of the rivet through the rest of the hole or pry it off from the other side with pliers.  Sometimes I use a lot of pushing force on an undersized drill and that pushes out the other side while making a larger hole in the doomed rivet.



 If you are unhappy with the hole after drilling out the rivet then the accepted practice is to drill out the hole to the next rivet size and install a larger rivet in place of the one you just removed.  Another accepted practice is to install two rivets, one on either side of the replaced one, with proper edge distances from the old rivet hole and the other rivets in the line.



 I'm sure you will get other opinions on this subject.  It seems there is not a whole lot of training for this operation, so we each develop our own techniques.



 Good luck,



 Paul

 XL fuselage



 

 At 05:19 AM 1/1/2008, you wrote:

 [quote]No I m not a frog.  Just a 601 XL builder thats not perfect.  My aircraft will be close but it too is not perfect.

 I dont think any machine is perfect.  So,,, that brings me to this:

 In a "few" cases I ve had to drill out a pop rivet.  I really didnt mess up a part or two but was unhappy with fit, looks, operation and for other reasons..  whatever..

 Whats been on my mind is the hole left in the aluminum after drilling out the rivet.   I bet all of Zenith builders have learned about drilling out these things..

 My real question for discussion is this:  If the hole isnt perfectly round after drilling, will the aluminum rivet fill the odd shape of the new hole ?    I say yes.  Yes to a point.

 I m not talking about a football shape, just an out of round hole..

 I ve squeezed standard rivets with my squeezer thousands of times in the past and watched as the rivet conformed to the hole.  I assume the pop type rivets do the same...

  

 Amazing how I wake up at night thinking about "things".

  

 Steve 601XL QBK

  



 [b]

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

Yes Avex rivets.  I just use the aximoron of  POP....

 My holes are in no way a problem.  I actually  knew the answers on this question but need reasuring, cause its lonely out here  in Arizona...

 Its just me and my aluminum parts.

 Thanks for the replies...

  

 SW

 [quote]   ---

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

In my experience, the Avex rivets will do a fairly good job of filling a slightly damaged hole. You should punch out the steel stem from the rivet before attempting to drill it out, This makes it so much easier and less likely to damage the hole. 

On Jan 1, 2008, at 11:12 AM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 You should be able to drill out a rivet without causing any deformity to the hole.  I start with the smallest drill I have (#40) and use the next larger drills while drilling part way through the rivet until reaching the same size drill as the one that finished the rivet hole before setting the rivet.  This last drill will spin the head off the rivet without even entering the hole.  This is all done at low speeds in my battery powered drill.  (I doubt you would get such good results in a high speed air drill.)  You can then push the other part of the rivet through the rest of the hole or pry it off from the other side with pliers.  Sometimes I use a lot of pushing force on an undersized drill and that pushes out the other side while making a larger hole in the doomed rivet.



 If you are unhappy with the hole after drilling out the rivet then the accepted practice is to drill out the hole to the next rivet size and install a larger rivet in place of the one you just removed.  Another accepted practice is to install two rivets, one on either side of the replaced one, with proper edge distances from the old rivet hole and the other rivets in the line.



 Good luck,



 Paul

 XL fuselage



 

 At 05:19 AM 1/1/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  No I m not a frog.  Just a 601 XL builder thats not perfect.  My aircraft will be close but it too is not perfect.

 I dont think any machine is perfect.  So,,, that brings me to this:

 In a "few" cases I ve had to drill out a pop rivet.  I really didnt mess up a part or two but was unhappy with fit, looks, operation and for other reasons..  whatever..

 Whats been on my mind is the hole left in the aluminum after drilling out the rivet.   I bet all of Zenith builders have learned about drilling out these things..

 My real question for discussion is this:  If the hole isnt perfectly round after drilling, will the aluminum rivet fill the odd shape of the new hole ?    I say yes.  Yes to a point.

 I m not talking about a football shape, just an out of round hole..

 I ve squeezed standard rivets with my squeezer thousands of times in the past and watched as the rivet conformed to the hole.  I assume the pop type rivets do the same...

  

 Amazing how I wake up at night thinking about "things".

  

 Steve 601XL QBK

  



 	


	




 -- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.



 



 [quote][b]

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

Hey Steve, it sounds like you need to "put the pedal to the metal" (literally!) and hustle up on your XL so you can GO SOMEWHERE and enjoy not only your aircraft but to get away from home for a bit.  The view outside should be great.....at least better than here in Michigan!  Its snowing and blowing outside.  The clouds have been so low we can't even THINK about getting off the ground!  Has been that way for several months now.....be glad you don't live here!

   

  Larry



  [quote][b]

rjscep(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

 	  Quote: 	
		   There's always Bondo, many an aircraft hole was  

 filled with it...Don not archive

--- steve <notsew_evets(at)frontiernet.net> wrote:
	




 	  Quote: 	
		   No I m not a frog.  Just a 601 XL builder thats not

 perfect.  My aircraft will be close but it too is

 not perfect.

 I dont think any machine is perfect.  So,,, that

 brings me to this:

 In a "few" cases I ve had to drill out a pop rivet. 

 I really didnt mess up a part or two but was unhappy

 with fit, looks, operation and for other reasons.. 

 whatever..

 Whats been on my mind is the hole left in the

 aluminum after drilling out the rivet.   I bet all

 of Zenith builders have learned about drilling out

 these things..

 My real question for discussion is this:  If the

 hole isnt perfectly round after drilling, will the

 aluminum rivet fill the odd shape of the new hole ? 

   I say yes.  Yes to a point.

 I m not talking about a football shape, just an out

 of round hole..

 I ve squeezed standard rivets with my squeezer

 thousands of times in the past and watched as the

 rivet conformed to the hole.  I assume the pop type

 rivets do the same...

 

 Amazing how I wake up at night thinking about

 "things".

 

 Steve 601XL QBK

 


	


Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

Larry

  

 I m soooo glad I purchased a QBK.

 I would never finish a kit otherwise.

 I ve had the QBK since August and today pulled my  LAST rivet.  Painting is not too far off....

 The only real problem that I ve have with this 601  XL is the main spar bolts.  You might have read here about a week ago that  my spar holes are too big for the 5/16 bolts.

 Zenith engineers told me how to solve the situation  and they sent new 3/8 bolts.  I think its going to be a real pain trying to  ream out the holes....

 Figured I finish everything first and then tackle  the holes.

  

 Im in Bullhead City ( 95 miles south of Las  Vegas)

 Its 53 degrees today, Brrrrr!

  

 Steve

 [quote]   ---

skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

Sorry to hear your getting ONLY 53 there today.  We are STILL under a Winter Storm Warning (2nd day now) and the weatherman is predicting ANOTHER 3" TO 8" more of snow tonight.  Tomorrow, the temps are going down to single digits and then the Lake Effect Snow is going to kick in over Lake Michigan.  Most of times that is really severe and we usually have white out conditions.  Sometimes we measure the lake effect snow in FEET.  The 12" of snow we had last night is going to be thrown all around when the strong winds that are predicted to hit something later in the night.  The snow we've had along with the high winds will cause big snow drifts and I seriously think no one will be doing much traveling tomorrow.  Our temps are supposed to go back up into the low 40's next week, which is strange for us this time of year.  I'm about 30 northwest of South Bend Indiana, just to give you some idea where I'm at.  I'm really lucky  because I live on the south end of a private airstrip that is 150' wide and 2650" long......its a sod strip but very nice.  I just started my rudder starter kit but I did order the tail section already from Zenith.  I'm building the 601 XL.  It should be a perfect plane for around here. 

  Larry



        Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:34 pm Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

Steve,

I'm surprised the spar would be held by 5/16-inch bolts.  The transition 

from 5/16ths to 3/8th shouldn't be a problem if you're wing's jigged well.

Drill undersize and ream, then bolt each progressively as you go.  

Should be a draggy fit bolt to holes.

I made a drill/reamer guide for getting centered and aligned on the spar 

plates.  You might be able to do the same and help keep the drill/reamer 

aligned.

http://www.macsmachine.com/images/TJH/drillingguides/full/predrill-marking(2).gif



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



steve wrote:

[quote] Larry

  

 I m soooo glad I purchased a QBK.

 I would never finish a kit otherwise.

 I ve had the QBK since August and today pulled my LAST rivet.  

 Painting is not too far off....

 The only real problem that I ve have with this 601 XL is the main spar 

 bolts.  You might have read here about a week ago that my spar holes 

 are too big for the 5/16 bolts.

 Zenith engineers told me how to solve the situation and they sent new 

 3/8 bolts.  I think its going to be a real pain trying to ream out the 

 holes....

 Figured I finish everything first and then tackle the holes.

  

 Im in Bullhead City ( 95 miles south of Las Vegas)

 Its 53 degrees today, Brrrrr!

  

 Steve



     ---

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

please tell me this is a joke - I hope so. You are right - and there have been failures due to this practice...



If it was a joke please forgive my alarmist reaction - I could not tell....



ROBERT SCEPPA <rjscep(at)yahoo.com> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: ROBERT SCEPPA 



 	  Quote: 	
		   There's always Bondo, many an aircraft hole was  

 filled with it...Don not archive

--- steve  wrote:
	




 	  Quote: 	
		   No I m not a frog.  Just a 601 XL builder thats not

 perfect.  My aircraft will be close but it too is

 not perfect.

 I dont think any machine is perfect.  So,,, that

 brings me to this:

 In a "few" cases I ve had to drill out a pop rivet. 

 I really didnt mess up a part or two but was unhappy

 with fit, looks, operation and  for other reasons.. 

 whatever..

 Whats been on my mind is the hole left in the

 aluminum after drilling out the rivet.   I bet all

 of Zenith builders have learned about drilling out

 these things..

 My real question for discussion is this:  If the

 hole isnt perfectly round after drilling, will the

 aluminum rivet fill the odd shape of the new hole ? 

   I say yes.  Yes to a point.

 I m not talking about a football shape, just an out

 of round hole..

 I ve squeezed standard rivets with my squeezer

 thousands of times in the past and watched as the

 rivet conformed to the hole.  I assume the pop type

 rivets do the same...

 

 Amazing how I wake up at night thinking about

 "things".

 

 Steve 601XL QBK

 


	


Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. [quote][b]

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:15 pm Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

Larry



I dont mind the enlarging of the holes to 3/8.  Problem is that the 601 is 

built.  QBK came from the factory with the "defect".  An easy fix ? Sure if 

the airplane is apart.  The QBK is pretty much done from the factory.  The 

factory assembled the whole airframe and the spar holes should have been 

PERFECT!

How in the heck am I supposed to ream out these holes with the extremely 

small amount of space in the fuselage ??????

If I owned Zenith, I d have one of my people on the next airliner headed to 

my customers and fix the situation before a failure happened and a MAJOR 

lawsuit happened...

I ve documented all correspondence with Zenith...

Steve

---

rstone4(at)hot.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

Steve,

      Go through the  existing holes with an 11/32 drill bit, then ream to a tight fit.

  

 Bob Stone

 Harker Heights, Tx

 ZodiacXL w/Jabiru 3300

 [quote]   ---

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:54 am Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

Bob

  

 Shouldnt I use a 23/64 bit?  then ream  ???

 What kind of drill will fit down in the bildge  under the seat?

 The holes next to the fuselage side skins are so  close that I ll need to go out and purchase a small size drill  motor...

 [quote]   ---

rstone4(at)hot.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:38 am Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

Steve,

      If you can get  in there with an of/set drill head my suggestion of the 11/32 drill bit would  make the hole only 1/32 too small and provide just enough meat to ream to a  perfect tight fit.  A 23/64 would work I suppose but not leave much meat to  remove and you could over ream.  This process requires a twist or two, then  check with a 3/8 bolt until you just about have to force it in.

  

 Bob 

 [quote]   ---

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: Rivet, Rivet !

There are various close quarters drills and attachments available. I purchased a used item from Brown Tool,



 http://www.browntool.com/productselect.asp?ProductID=680



 that attaches to my 3/8 electric drill chuck. The used item is a bit beat-up, but functions just fine. Brown sells new ones in various price ranges also. Like most of the really close quarters drills, it doesn't have a chuck. Rather, it requires bits that are threaded 1/4"x28, which, of course, Brown also sells, including very short (9/16"-long) bits for really close quarters. Brown also sells collets which will grip regular drill bits over a narrow range of diameters. (I put collets on my Christmas list for #20 & #30. I haven't used them yet.) Though I am barely into wings, there were a couple of spots on the tail where I used the close quarter drill. It worked like a champ, but I think I'd want to practice a bit before I drilled something thick and really critical like wing spar attachment.



 Good luck and happy building!



 Terry



 

 At 07:37 PM 1/1/2008 -0700, you wrote:

 [quote]Bob

  

 Shouldnt I use a 23/64 bit?  then ream ???

 What kind of drill will fit down in the bildge under the seat?

 The holes next to the fuselage side skins are so close that I ll need to go out and purchase a small size drill motor...  ---

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

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