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Autogas - color

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LarryM

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Genoa, IL

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: Autogas - color

I bought some autogas today at a good price ( for the area) knowing the pump said it had ethanol, but was going to put it in the car latter. I decided to check to see if it did have ethanol in it, as not all stations have it, even though the pump says so. Turns out it indeed has ethanol in it, but what I wasn't prepared for was that the gas was clear. Not even the slightest shade of yellow! I've never seen this before and wonder just what I bought. I thought I'd ask the list, as you guys have much more experience than I. Have you seen "non yellow" auto gas?



Happy New Year!

larry

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:39 am Post subject: Re: Autogas - color

Larry, 



The gas I buy seems to be for the most part clear or close to it.

It seems to turn more yellow after it sits for a few weeks though.



I believe it has ethanol in it but I have never checked.  I have flown my Kitfox with 582 380 hours since this new engine in June 2006 and never had any isssues yet. Engine never been apart either.



I keep hearing all this ethanol propaganda about how this and that but I had had no issues YET !! .  I will say that ethanol gas gives you less power per gallon that gas with out it, but our greenwashing government says it good but you will use more under same power settings.

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Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:38 am Post subject: Autogas - color

Dave

   

  I may be wrong but I thought the ethanol issue was with the Kitfox fuel tank coatings (Kreem) and not with the Rotax 582.  My information is based on previous list discussions concerning this issue.

   

  If my understanding is correct then I am interested in the type of tanks you have.  If you do have the Kreem coatings have you experienced any problems?

   

  Mike Chaney

  1996 Kitfox IV

  Previously 582 now Jabiru 2200



dave <dave(at)cfisher.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave" 



Larry, 



The gas I buy seems to be for the most part clear or close to it.

It seems to turn more yellow after it sits for a few weeks though.



I believe it has ethanol in it but I have [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Autogas - color

I don't think i have Kreem in mine as they look like just fiberglass. 



I think KREEM might be the culprit in the tanks that have issues but I am not sure. 



If mine leak I will buy these  http://wingtanks.com/    drop them in and fly.



I think the resin used in the wingtanks i have seesm to be ok so far any how.   <fingers>

LarryM

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Genoa, IL

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Autogas - color

Thanks Dave,



  I agree the Rotax doesn't care, but my tanks do.  I don't want to replace them, and "real gas" is still available here, so I'll use it until it is no longer available.  All the gas that I have bought for the car, etc before was always not seen by me, or what I did see - was yellow as the "real gas" is.  It surprised me by the lack of color.



Happy New Year



larry

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Autogas - color

No problem Larry, 



I would like to see some evidence of  why not to use ethanol gas before i try to agree with it. 



Trust me I hate getting anything rammed down my throat by a beuacrat, BUT I have no issues with ethanol gas yet and I use thousands of gallons of it this year in many application from different 2 strokes to industrial 4 strokes to older and newer 4 stroke engines,4 bangers, v6 , v 8 and in-line 6 engines.  Never had any issues yet. 



Certainly I am not worried about it yet.

taildragon(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: Autogas - color

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]-->  For the first 300 hours, I used auto-gas with MTBE (I live in CA). It was  clear. CA then switched to 6-10% ethanol, so I used that auto-gas for another  100 hours. It was also clear. I then went to 100LL w/TCP for the past 100 hours  (moved the plane to an airport that discouraged self refueling from 5  gallon containers). It is a light blue. The tanks were factory Kreem'ed in  1995. I switched the fuel lines from Mill-Std 6000 to Auto SAE 30R9 and  Bing  Alcohol Resistant Fuel Line (from Aircraft Spruce P/N 05-00500 for fuel gauge ) when  introducing the ethanol fuel. No trouble from any of that, SO FAR!  

  

 Roger Standley

 IV-1200, 912UL

 N499KF

 [quote]   ---

bjones(at)dmv.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: Autogas - color

I have had alcohol (and water) phase seperate out of ethanol blended gasoline. 

In multiple instances my engines quit running. 



The the excess water joins with the alcohol and phase seperates from the 

gasoline resulting in a layer that would not sustain cumbustion.



This can occur when too much water is present in a tank from accumulated 

condensation or other cause. In the presence of excess water the 10 percent 

ethanol in the gasoline can seperate out enmasse from the gasoline and settle 

to the bottom of the tank. 



Inherent in this process is tricky little trap for an unwary pilot. When we 

pull a sample from our tank we can easily mistake the alcohol-water settleout 

for gasoline. It looks like gas. The color difference may not be noticeable. 

The alcohol-water settleout is "thinner" than water and flows on a surface more 

like gas than water. And, because all of the ethanol tends to seperate out of 

the gasoline at once, the result is a large volume of alcohol in the bottom of 

the tank (about 10 percent of the total volume of fuel in the tank) so when we 

pull a sample from the sump all we get is the ethanol phase. We do not see a 

demarcation line between gas and water that we typically see when we pull a 

sample of gas that has some water contamination.



I poured some of the ethanol settleout into a couple of the funnels with the  

fine internal mesh filters that some of us use to prevent water from getting 

into our tanks when we gas up from the ubiquitous 5 gallon can and was 

surprised to see that none of the funnels did not prevent the alcohol-water 

settleout from passing thru. 



I had discussions with technical folks from our multistate gasoline 

distribution plant and was impressed with the amount of problems they were 

having with alcohol - gasoline phase seperation, customer and gas station 

problems as well as the remarkable steps they had to take to minimize settleout 

within their distribution network.



One question that I asked repeatedly without getting a solid answer was, "If 

settleout is close to occuring, can it be triggered in flight as we go to 

altitude and outside air temperatures get colder?" Many physical and chemical 

equalibria shift with temperature change as the only variable.



BJ

  







uoting dave <dave(at)cfisher.com>:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 No problem Larry, 

 

 I would like to see some evidence of  why not to use ethanol gas before i try

 to agree with it. 

 

 Trust me I hate getting anything rammed down my throat by a beuacrat, BUT I

 have no issues with ethanol gas yet and I use thousands of gallons of it this

 year in many application from different 2 strokes to industrial 4 strokes to

 older and newer 4 stroke engines,4 bangers, v6 , v 8 and in-line 6 engines. 

 Never had any issues yet. 

 

 Certainly I am not worried about it from in-line.

 

 --------

 Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

 Flying Videos and Kitfox Info

 http://www.cfisher.com/

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155215#155215

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


	




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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:35 am Post subject: Re: Autogas - color

BJ,  I have seen the same in bench tests that same as you have. 



Now If you add some blue pre mix oil into misture and shake it, it turns  blue. 



NOW let it settle, you will see the gas oil mix stays blue and water /ethanol  will not adhere to the oil.



I have had no issues yet but I also buy gas in smaller quantities now and use sealed  containers and filter all  my gas.  I also use a gascolator.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:21 pm Post subject: Autogas - color

Gascolator removes water form gasoline, and I wouldn't be without one.

However the gascolator does the square root of sweet nothing for fuel laced

with ethanol except screen it.  If you really have to fly on ethanol

contaminated fuel you are best off to use the oil injector in colder climes

as that is when you can get the phase separation.



Just back from New Years in St. John's

Noel Loveys

Campbellton, N.D.B., Newfoundland, Canada

E-Mail: noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca

Kitfox III-A, 582, B-Box, Ivo IFA

Aerocet 1100 floats.

CDN Rec-PP, AME intern.

--

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Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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