Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - cabin heater muff style

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

cabin heater muff style

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: cabin heater muff style

OK Gents...Just finished up a heater muff for my 912 speedster. I thought if anyone was going to undertake such a project, I might post these pics .

Total weight as shown on the scales was 2 lbs. And the Heater valve I fabricated of steel was 12 oz my itself...the single heaviest component.

All hardware is included on the scales except the scat hose clamps..which I didnt have the right sizes on hand, and the cable to operate the valve. Worked out pretty good...I just hope it heats!

scoopfront.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

61.7 KB

Viewed:

650 Time(s)

oncan.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

61.29 KB

Viewed:

759 Time(s)

valve.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

44.32 KB

Viewed:

697 Time(s)

heaterdone.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

196.81 KB

Viewed:

804 Time(s)

weight2lbs.JPG

Description:

Filesize:

67.21 KB

Viewed:

665 Time(s)

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

andynfultz(at)bellsouth.n
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: cabin heater muff style

Don,



  That is a really neat intallation.  Please do let us know how it works.



Andy F.



--

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:07 am Post subject: cabin heater muff style

Andy:what did U use at the fire wall.4 the heater control box??this 

looks like a neat set clean set up.good deal.I would like to may B build 

one for my FF2 with the 582 engine I think it all so would work 4 

me..Thanks Steve Shinabery N554KF  KF2 little 582



Andy Fultz wrote:

[quote] 



 Don,



   That is a really neat intallation.  Please do let us know how it works.



 Andy F.



 --

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:12 am Post subject: cabin heater muff style

Looks like a good set-up, Don. However, I'm concerned about the  

exhaust pipe wrapping. In "Tony Bingelis' on Engines", he states: "I  

don't recommend wrapping exhaust pipes with one of those automotive  

"Exhaust Insulating Wrap" kits regardless of the claims made for  

them." He goes on to cite one example of failure. I've thought about  

this practice, and haven't come to any conclusion myself, but if Tony  

disapproves of it, that's a pretty good sign.



Anybody else have any proof of this being a bad idea?



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/450+ hrs

On Jan 3, 2008, at 7:18 PM, Don G wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 OK Gents...Just finished up a heater muff for my 912 speedster. I  

 thought if anyone was going to undertake such a project, I might  

 post these pics .

 Total weight as shown on the scales was 2 lbs. And the Heater valve  

 I fabricated of steel was 12 oz my itself...the single heaviest  

 component.

 All hardware is included on the scales except the scat hose  

 clamps..which I didnt have the right sizes on hand, and the cable  

 to operate the valve. Worked out pretty good...I just hope it heats!



 --------

 Don G.

 Central Illinois

 Kitfox IV Speedster

 Luscombe 8A



 http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=155823#155823





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/scoopfront_955.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/oncan_139.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/valve_146.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/heaterdone_119.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/weight2lbs_476.jpg

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: cabin heater muff style

I read something about this Lynn that stated the exhaust pipes, especially 

those closest to the cylinders, need cooling.  By wrapping them they keep 

the heat inside, which is good for the engine compartment, but the metal 

gets too hot which changes the metallurgy properties and reduces it's useful 

life.  This isn't my opinion, just repeating what I read and I don't know if 

it is true or not.  FWIW.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT

"Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must first be 

overcome".- Samuel Johnson



---

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: Re: cabin heater muff style

I'm glad to see some more heater ideas.  My first attempt at building one was a bust...no heat.  My modification made a tiny bit of heat.  I have the third generation installed but too snowy to fly and test now.  keep us updated on the performance Don!

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: Re: cabin heater muff style

Thx Gents...Well, before starting on this project I did a search of the archives from this list and alot of the dope I read influenced the design.

I have not installed them, but I have a sack of pot scrubbers on the bench!



The Valve on the firewall is a simply flapper type air diverter valve that opens and shut via a cable on the panel. it diverts the hopefully warm air either into the cabin or out thru the round outlet pointed down to exit thru the bottom of the cowl. I fabricated this myself from mild steel sheet and brazed it together. It is kind of a copy of other aircraft diverter valves I have seen in the past.



Lynn, In regards to the exhaust wrap. I have Tonys Book, and I am aware of his statement on pipe wraps. However, I also know if this products usage in many certificated applications and how effective it can be to reduce under cowl temps. My decision to use it on my craft was based on the close proximity of the coolant hoses to the exhaust pipes. The craft operated for about 100 hours without the wrap on the pipes, and the damage to the heater hoses was begining to show up. Also damage to the firewall blanket where the rear exhaust pipes come very close.  I considered the really good airflow under the cowl that a round cowled KitFox has, and determined that was was needed was something to more or less "sheild" the hoses and blanket from the pipe, not necessarly to reduce the under cowl temps. Hence, I opted for the wrap. Since installing it..about 80 hours ago..I have kept a close eye on those hoses, and am very happy with the result. Only time will tell if there is any detrimental effects on the pipes due to holding in too much heat, and if it happens, I figure that a cracked pipe is a better failure than a busted coolent hose.

I will keep you posted on the long term effects.

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: cabin heater muff style

Well, Don, if the wrapping proves to be a problem, you can also do  

away with it, and just install a standoff shield on the coolant hoses  

or other affected items. Of course the simplest and most direct  

method is the wrap of the exhaust pipe, as you did.

When I worked for the Chrysler Proving Grounds Wind Tunnel, we would  

often install thermocouples on a particular part like the catalytic  

convertor. We would then put another t'couple on the CC shield,  

another on the floor pan, the carpet, etc. All of the thermocouples  

were "stacked" that is, all in line with each other vertically. It  

was surprising how the temperature dropped behind the shield, on the  

floor pan, etc.



Now would not be a good time to mention the Jabiru doesn't have  

cooling hoses, eh? I didn't think so. : )  Besides, the Jab's got  

their own problems: )



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/450+ hrs



On Jan 4, 2008, at 12:33 PM, Don G wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Thx Gents...Well, before starting on this project I did a search of  

 the archives from this list and alot of the dope I read influenced  

 the design.

 I have not installed them, but I have a sack of pot scrubbers on  

 the bench!



 The Valve on the firewall is a simply flapper type air diverter  

 valve that opens and shut via a cable on the panel. it diverts the  

 hopefully warm air either into the cabin or out thru the round  

 outlet pointed down to exit thru the bottom of the cowl. I  

 fabricated this myself from mild steel sheet and brazed it  

 together. It is kind of a copy of other aircraft diverter valves I  

 have seen in the past.



 Lynn, In regards to the exhaust wrap. I have Tonys Book, and I am  

 aware of his statement on pipe wraps. However, I also know if this  

 products usage in many certificated applications and how effective  

 it can be to reduce under cowl temps. My decision to use it on my  

 craft was based on the close proximity of the coolant hoses to the  

 exhaust pipes. The craft operated for about 100 hours without the  

 wrap on the pipes, and the damage to the heater hoses was begining  

 to show up. Also damage to the firewall blanket where the rear  

 exhaust pipes come very close.  I considered the really good  

 airflow under the cowl that a round cowled KitFox has, and  

 determined that was was needed was something to more or less  

 "sheild" the hoses and blanket from the pipe, not necessarly to  

 reduce the under cowl temps. Hence, I opted for the wrap. Since  

 installing it..about 80 hours ago..I have kept a close eye on those  

 hoses, and am very happy with the result. Only time will tell if  

 there is any detri!

  mental effects on the pipes due to holding in too much heat, and  

 if it happens, I figure that a cracked pipe is a better failure  

 than a busted coolent hose.

 I will keep you posted on the long term effects.



 --------

 Don G.

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: cabin heater muff style

To quote Tony Bingelis a little more regarding the failure of a  

wrapped exhaust system: "A local Mustang II equipped with a mild  

steel exhaust system suffered complete failure of the pipes in all of  

the bend areas. His thermal wrapped pipes had completely burned  

through." Reference is "Tony Bingelis on Engines," pages179-182.



Just to throw in an observation of my own, I've never seen a race car  

with the pipes wrapped. I've seen the ads for the wrapping, but never  

seen it in use. And you'd think if any group of engine enthusiasts  

would be going for that last horse, it'd be race cars. And while I'm  

pretty new at this aviation thing, I haven't seen the certified  

planes with wrapping on their exhausts, either....those that I've  

seen anyway.



Maybe a better method of retaining heat (to raise the efficiency of  

the cabin heat muff) would be ceramic coating? While Tony does not  

mention ceramic coating, he does list Jet Hot Coatings in his sources.



The other thing about the wrapping is that water/ice/snow can be  

trapped under the wrapping, further causing problems...I know, how  

long is ice going to last at 1400°? Not long, I'm thinking: )



On Jan 4, 2008, at 9:37 AM, fox5flyer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>



 I read something about this Lynn that stated the exhaust pipes,  

 especially those closest to the cylinders, need cooling.  By  

 wrapping them they keep the heat inside, which is good for the  

 engine compartment, but the metal gets too hot which changes the  

 metallurgy properties and reduces it's useful life.  This isn't my  

 opinion, just repeating what I read and I don't know if it is true  

 or not.  FWIW.

 Deke Morisse

 Mikado Michigan

 S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT

 "Nothing will ever be attempted, if all possible objections must  

 first be overcome".- Samuel Johnson

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: cabin heater muff style

Something you might want to think about is to have the air passing through the heat muff all the time, in other words let the air dump when  you turn off the heat.  I don't know if your valve does that or not.  That way the heat around the muffler doesn't get to hot and burn out the muffler.

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: cabin heater muff style

Roger that Mike... the valve has 2 outlets..when it is closed to the cabin, it is diverted thru the outlet pointed down. I didn't stick a short hose on it yet. Don't think it will be needed but I made it so I could just in case. It would need to be about 6 inchs long and go straight down to the under-cowl opening. I believe this will also help keep some heat away from the lower motor mount rubbers, which as you know are real close to the muffler can. I am sure your 912 speedster is just like it. my motor mount rubbers show a little heat brittle on the edges closest to the can now. This heat muff oughtta help that some.



And Lynn, yes, I understand and agree, in fact, in addition to the wrap on the rear pipes that come so close to the firewall blanket, I installed small alum sheilds against the firewall over the blanket because with the wrap on, it just about touchs the blanket right on the bend. The heat had already cooked 2 black spots on the blanket in that 1st 70 hours.



And when I read Tonys book, I also considered that the EGT temps could get a bunch higher on the Mustang which probably had a 320 or a 360 in it,  than on a 912, particularly when you have mixture control in the cockpit. Plus, he specified they were mild steel headers, not stainless like mine. These considerations gave me a little more confidence it the application.

 As for the wraps on certified birds, they are pretty popular in alot of areas, especially the further south you get. I also believe they are required on a Aztec, and come standard on some models of Bonanza's.

When I was in College, at Spartan in Tulsa, we had wraps on most all of the 150's on the flight line. Of Course back in the heyday of Aviation..the early 70s, Those birds didnt cool off all day long, every day, as their flight training program was very very busy.

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:07 am Post subject: cabin heater muff style

Gotcha, Don...sounds like you've done your homework. 



Now about that firewall blanket. I talked with Skystar about the  

placement...major portion on the engine side or major portion on the  

cabin side, and they told me that most builders were putting the  

major portion on the inside, because of concerns about getting oil  

soaking. I actually ripped the stitches off the 1/2 side and tossed  

it, using the full blanket on the cabin side.

How are others dealing with the blanket, if at all?



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/450+ hrs



On Jan 4, 2008, at 10:21 PM, Don G wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 And Lynn, yes, I understand and agree, in fact, in addition to the  

 wrap on the rear pipes that come so close to the firewall blanket,  

 I installed small alum sheilds against the firewall over the  

 blanket because with the wrap on, it just about touchs the blanket  

 right on the bend. The heat had already cooked 2 black spots on the  

 blanket in that 1st 70 hours.



 And when I read Tonys book, I also considered that the EGT temps  

 could get a bunch higher on the Mustang which probably had a 320 or  

 a 360 in it,  than on a 912, particularly when you have mixture  

 control in the cockpit. Plus, he specified they were mild steel  

 headers, not stainless like mine. These considerations gave me a  

 little more confidence it the application.

  As for the wraps on certified birds, they are pretty popular in  

 alot of areas, especially the further south you get. I also believe  

 they are required on a Aztec, and come standard on some models of  

 Bonanza's.

 When I was in College, at Spartan in Tulsa, we had wraps on most  

 all of the 150's on the flight line. Of Course back in the heyday  

 of Aviation..the early 70s, Those birds didnt cool off all day  

 long, every day, as their flight training program was very very busy.



 --------

 Don G.

 Central Illinois

 Kitfox IV Speedster

 Luscombe 8A

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

john(at)leptron.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: cabin heater muff style

Lynn,

I did what you have explained. I have no blanket on the engine side and the

side in the cockpit still looks good after 10 years.



John oakley



--

Don G

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Central Illinois

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: Re: cabin heater muff style

Lynn,

REALLY?....this sounds very interesting...and more logical in fact.

Explain to me what you mean about the 1/2 side?

And major portion?...I am confused with these terms.

I am also sure I would like the whole dang think inside the cabin.

I think this is the first aircraft I have seen with a blanket on the firewall on the engine side. I thought it looked outta place!

_________________
Don G.
Central Illinois
Kitfox IV Speedster
Luscombe 8A
RV9A

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: cabin heater muff style

At 07:05 AM 1/5/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  How are others dealing with the blanket, if at all?


	


         Mine has no noise attenuation, just the stainless bulkhead, 

and I don't mind at all. I do have good noise cancelling headphones, 

though. My firewall's constantly a mess from leaky injection banjos 

and weeping seals so I'm very glad I don't have anything permeable on 

the outside of it.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: cabin heater muff style

Does your blanket extend below the ...never mind, I just looked at  

you pictures and see that it does extend all the way down to the  

bottom of the firewall inside the engine compartment. It sounds like  

you got your plane with the blanket already installed if not entirely  

finished. Is there any of the firewall blanket showing inside the  

cabin, that is, on the back side of the firewall? If it does, that is  

what I'm calling the 1/2 side, as it is only half as long as the side  

that has the rudder pedal bumps.



I'm not sure what the proper terms are, but just for the sake of  

discussion, let's call the side that contains the bumps (my term) for  

the rudder pedals, the full side, or the long side. The other side is  

the short side (what I called the 1/2 side), and only comes halfway  

down the firewall. These two sides are sewn together, forming a  

pocket that slides down over the firewall. It can be installed with  

either the short side, or the long side facing the engine. I was  

nervous about having either side facing the engine where it is  

subject to heat, oil or gas contamination, or whatever. When I called  

the old Skystar Co., they told me that some builders would cut the  

short side off, and install the blanket entirely within the cabin,  

that is, on the back side of the firewall. You just have to push the  

rudder bumps inside-out, so to speak, and it fits perfectly. When I  

did my plane, I cut holes where the engine mount contacts the  

firewall and thence the airframe. I didn't want to have anything,  

much less fabric, between the engine mount and the airframe, except  

the firewall. If the blanket is between these items, eventually the  

fabric will compress, and leave you with loose engine mounting bolts.



Hope I've explained it ok.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/450+ hrs

On Jan 5, 2008, at 11:22 AM, Don G wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Lynn,

 REALLY?....this sounds very interesting...and more logical in fact.

 Explain to me what you mean about the 1/2 side?

 And major portion?...I am confused with these terms.

 I am also sure I would like the whole dang think inside the cabin.

 I think this is the first aircraft I have seen with a blanket on  

 the firewall on the engine side. I thought it looked outta place!



 --------

 Don G.

 Central Illinois

 Kitfox IV Speedster

 Luscombe 8A



 http://www.geocities.com/dagger369th/my_firefly.htm





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156145#156145

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum