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bonding cockpit module to hull[Scanned]

 
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Peter.Field(at)hgfield.co
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:56 am    Post subject: bonding cockpit module to hull[Scanned] Reply with quote

You did remember to drill 2 holes I assume, one to let the air out when you injected the Redux ......
We have injected redux with a syringe into similar voids that occurred when gluing in the windows with success. Messy job but it works.

When you glue the windows in make sure you have plenty of Redux on the recess and mask the window with tape. Voids in the window recesses are much worse to deal with than voids in the cockpit module.

Peter Field
kit 566 flying at last!


From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell
Sent: 09 January 2008 14:04
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: bonding cockpit module to hull[Scanned]


Bob

Thanks happy new year.

I did all of that which is how I found the voids�but buggered if I could do anything with injecting even though I started with a very small drill one hole and working up through 1/8 to 3/16 for the other.

I have no idea why this should be so. Maybe I am doing something wrong probably being thick.

I think also that I am being �picky� nevertheless I feel more comfortable with a complete bond. I don�t see why a lay up joint should not be as strong or stronger than a redux joint. Logically the redux joins a fiberglass structure and therefore the structure is only as strong as its weakest link which I am assuming is the (peel) strength of the fiberglass because when you test redux the fiberglass tends to fail before the redux. So a fiberglass to fiberglass bond should be as strong as a fiberglass/redux/fiberglass bond.

I hope�

Will



From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:19
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: bonding cockpit module to hull


Hi! Will
Sorry to have missed this sissue before now becxause what I have to say is too late,..... "had you held a strong light behind the two reduxed surfaces you would have seen the voids to attend to them prior to curing. I'm surprised you can't inject with a liquid redux mix .
If you have removed the flanges you must do a good job with the scuff sanding to do lay ups against.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Happy New Year!
Quote:

----Original Message----
From: wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Date: 08/01/2008 11:52
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subj: RE: bonding cockpit module to hull
Bob
Quite right this is exactly what is happening in some places - but not in others. I tried injecting but could not make it work. Became seriously frustrated (know the feeling?)�.

So I ground down one and found that the voids are actually bubbles in the redux. So I ground down the rest of the flange and was glad that I did � a number of voids. Not I think enough to imperil the structure but enough to upset me.

So what I am left with is the rearmost flange ground down to the skin. I am going to do I do a staggered 3 ply lay up along the rear flange onto the hull.

Any thoughts on this anyone?

Another question is why this happened. If I were gluing in the cockpit module again
1. I would use � bolts at the key places especially at the firewall lower bottom
2. I would support the hull in a webbing sling so that the hull could conform to the cockpit module (I made a cradle based on the profile of the cockpit module) which it must be admitted is roughly what the europa cradle suggests
Will


From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Laptop JR
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 17:10
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: bonding cockpit module to hull



William



could it be that there appears to be no adhesive where the module and the fuselage are actually touching, well almost touching? and that where there is a gap filled, there is enough to black out any transparency?

That is what I thought happened with mine so long ago.



JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz



do not archive
Quote:

----- Original Message -----

From: William Daniell (wdaniell(at)etb.net.co)

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 4:20 AM

Subject: Europa-List: bonding cockpit module to hull



Can anyone help with this?

I have a number of (what appear to be) voids in the adhesive bonding the cockpit module to the outer skin especially in the two aft joints � (the one at the rear face of the fuel tank and the one aft of that).

I have tried injecting redux but I can�t seem to make that work�any hints?

The option I thought of was to grind the whole flange down to the skin and then re-construct the join with a bid +/- 45 lay up.

Any ideas? Anyone resolve the same issue?

Thanks

Will

03-Jan-08 15:52
Quote:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution


Date: 6/01/2008 11:57 AM



n their emails.
Try SPAMfight
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03-Jan-08 15:52



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03-Jan-08 15:52

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wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:54 am    Post subject: bonding cockpit module to hull[Scanned] Reply with quote

Peter

Thanks for the warning,

Mmm…yes I did remember the two holes.� And it worked with some voids and not with others.� Having ground down a bit more I can tell you that there were voids that did not show using the light which I thought was quite interesting.

I don’t think it is a cause for concern for others for two reasons
<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>I haven’t heard of any cockpit modules coming unstuck
<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>I had to reopen my wings after gluing the tops on them: two things
<![if !supportLists]>a. <![endif]>There were voids in this too albeit much smaller and less numerous because I think I used sufficient redux
<![if !supportLists]>b. <![endif]>The skins were impossible to get off because the redux would not let go – I tried heat, wedges – every combination of options to prise the skins off whole.� Eventually I realized that the structure would give way before the redux and had to grind the whole lot off and order new skins.� There appeared to be no appreciable difference in the strength of the bond relative to the surrounding structure in areas of voids as opposed to areas with no voids – that is to say in areas where there were voids the flanges would have given way before the redux. �It gave me great faith in the system.�
So I guess my conclusion from this is that I am probably being picky.

Saludos

Will

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Field
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 09:50
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: bonding cockpit module to hull[Scanned]



You did remember to drill 2 holes I assume, one to let the air out when you injected the Redux ......
We have injected redux with a syringe into similar voids that occurred when gluing in the windows with success. Messy job but it works.



When you glue the windows in make sure you have plenty of Redux on the recess and mask the window with tape. Voids in the window recesses are much worse to deal with than voids in the cockpit module.

Peter Field
kit 566 flying at last!




From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell
Sent: 09 January 2008 14:04
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: bonding cockpit module to hull[Scanned]
Bob

Thanks happy new year.

I did all of that which is how I found the voids…but buggered if I could do anything with injecting even though I started with a very small drill one hole and working up through 1/8 to 3/16 for the other.

I have no idea why this should be so. Maybe I am doing something wrong probably being thick.

I think also that I am being “picky” nevertheless I feel more comfortable with a complete bond. I don’t see why a lay up joint should not be as strong or stronger than a redux joint. Logically the redux joins a fiberglass structure and therefore the structure is only as strong as its weakest link which I am assuming is the (peel) strength of the fiberglass because when you test redux the fiberglass tends to fail before the redux. So a fiberglass to fiberglass bond should be as strong as a fiberglass/redux/fiberglass bond.

I hope…

Will



From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:19
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: bonding cockpit module to hull


Hi! Will
Sorry to have missed this sissue before now becxause what I have to say is too late,..... "had you held a strong light behind the two reduxed surfaces you would have seen the voids to attend to them prior to curing. I'm surprised you can't inject with a liquid redux mix .
If you have removed the flanges you must do a good job with the scuff sanding to do lay ups against.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG Happy New Year!
Quote:

----Original Message----
From: wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Date: 08/01/2008 11:52
To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subj: RE: bonding cockpit module to hull
Bob
Quite right this is exactly what is happening in some places - but not in others. I tried injecting but could not make it work. Became seriously frustrated (know the feeling?)–.

So I ground down one and found that the voids are actually bubbles in the redux. So I ground down the rest of the flange and was glad that I did – a number of voids. Not I think enough to imperil the structure but enough to upset me.

So what I am left with is the rearmost flange ground down to the skin. I am going to do I do a staggered 3 ply lay up along the rear flange onto the hull.

Any thoughts on this anyone?

Another question is why this happened. If I were gluing in the cockpit module again
1. � I would use � bolts at the key places especially at the firewall lower bottom
2. � I would support the hull in a webbing sling so that the hull could conform to the cockpit module (I made a cradle based on the profile of the cockpit module) which it must be admitted is roughly what the europa cradle suggests
Will


From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Laptop JR
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 17:10
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: bonding cockpit module to hull



William



could it be that there appears to be no adhesive where the module and the fuselage are actually touching, well almost touching? and that where there is a gap filled, there is enough to black out any transparency?

That is what I thought happened with mine so long ago.



JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz



do not archive
Quote:

----- Original Message -----

From: William Daniell (wdaniell(at)etb.net.co)

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 4:20 AM

Subject: bonding cockpit module to hull



Can anyone help with this?

I have a number of (what appear to be) voids in the adhesive bonding the cockpit module to the outer skin especially in the two aft joints – (the one at the rear face of the fuel tank and the one aft of that).

I have tried injecting redux but I can’t seem to make that work…any hints?

The option I thought of was to grind the whole flange down to the skin and then re-construct the join with a bid +/- 45 lay up.

Any ideas? Anyone resolve the same issue?

Thanks

Will

03-Jan-08 15:52
Quote:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution


Date: 6/01/2008 11:57 AM



n their emails.
Try SPAMfight
Quote:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com
0
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1


03-Jan-08 15:52



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</BLOCKQUOTE


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03-Jan-08 15:52

03-Jan-08 15:52
[quote][b]


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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

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