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bonding cockpit module to hull

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wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: bonding cockpit module to hull

Can anyone help with this?  

   

I have a number of (what appear to be) voids in the adhesive bonding the cockpit module to the outer skin especially in the two aft joints – (the one at the rear face of the fuel tank and the one aft of that).    

   

I have tried injecting redux but I can’t seem to make that work…any hints?  

   

The option I thought of was to grind the whole flange down to the skin and then re-construct the join with a bid +/- 45 lay up.  

   

Any ideas?  Anyone resolve the same issue?  

   

Thanks  

   

Will  

     

  03-Jan-08 15:52

    [quote][b]

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: bonding cockpit module to hull

If  this is on a Trigear, I would go with the remove and Bid option, given you will  be doing a lot more glassing

 for  your gear sockets anyway, If you can get to any voids through the spar holes  then you could glass the other side as well

 just  to be sure you have it. Mind the fuel tank when your grinding  though.

  

 craig

 [quote]   --

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: bonding cockpit module to hull

Thanks, my instinct is to do this something like 4 plies staggered by about ¾ in – does that sound right to you?  

will  

       

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig bastin

 Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 16:08

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: bonding cockpit module to hull  

  

  

     

If this is on a Trigear, I would go with the remove and Bid option, given you will be doing a lot more glassing  

    

for your gear sockets anyway, If you can get to any voids through the spar holes then you could glass the other side as well  

    

just to be sure you have it. Mind the fuel tank when your grinding though.  

    

   

    

craig  

  [quote]  

--

tonyk(at)kaon.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: bonding cockpit module to hull

 	  Quote: 	
		  > I have a number of (what appear to be) voids in the adhesive bonding the cockpit module to the outer skin especially in the two aft joints – (the one at the rear face of the fuel tank and the one aft of that).    

   
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  > I have tried injecting redux but I can’t seem to make that work…any hints?  

   
	


Try injecting Redux again by first drilling two small holes, in the cockpit module glass only, at the outer ends of each of the voids. Fill a 10ml syringe with the redux and inject into one hole until it oozes out of the second. Repeat for each void.   

   

Tony  

   

   

   

   

   

      [quote][b]

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: bonding cockpit module to hull

William...sorry to hear of this but I believe it is a relatively common 

result with a number of posts which you may be able to coax out of the 

matronics archive.  One aspect of the injection-solution is to provide 

two holes into each void...one for the syringe, and one to allow air to 

exit the void. Fortunately (for me), I cannot speak from direct 

experience as this is one particular bullet I dodged.



Good luck,



Fred



On Monday, Jan 7, 2008, at 09:20 US/Pacific, William Daniell wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Can anyone help with this?



  



 I have a number of (what appear to be) voids in the adhesive bonding 

 the cockpit module to the outer skin especially in the two aft joints 

 – (the one at the rear face of the fuel tank and the one aft of > that). 


	


-- 

This message has been scanned for viruses and

dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

believed to be clean.

jrgowing(at)bigpond.net.a
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: bonding cockpit module to hull

William

  

 could it be that there appears to be no adhesive  where the module and the fuselage are actually touching, well almost touching?  and that where there is a gap filled, there is enough to black out any  transparency?

 That is what I thought happened with mine so long  ago.

  

 JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz

  

 do not archive

 [quote]   ---

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: bonding cockpit module to hull

Bob  

Quite right this is exactly what is happening in some places - but not in others.  I tried injecting but could not make it work.  Became seriously frustrated (know the feeling?)–.  

   

So I ground down one and found that the voids are actually bubbles in the redux.   So I ground down the rest of the flange and was glad that I did – a number of voids.  Not I think enough to imperil the structure but enough to upset me.  

   

So what I am left with is the rearmost flange ground down to the skin.   I am going to do I do a staggered 3 ply lay up along the rear flange onto the hull.  

   

Any thoughts on this anyone?  

   

Another question is why this happened.  If I were gluing in the cockpit module again  

<![if !supportLists]>1.       <![endif]>I would use ¼ bolts at the key places especially at the firewall lower bottom  

<![if !supportLists]>2.       <![endif]>I would support the hull in a webbing sling so that the hull could conform to the cockpit module (I made a cradle based on the profile of the cockpit module) which it must be admitted is roughly what the europa cradle suggests  

Will  

   

       

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Laptop JR

 Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 17:10

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: bonding cockpit module to hull  

  

  

     

William  

    

   

    

could it be that there appears to be no adhesive where the module and the fuselage are actually touching, well almost touching? and that where there is a gap filled, there is enough to black out any transparency?  

    

That is what I thought happened with mine so long ago.  

    

   

    

JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz  

    

   

    

do not archive  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: William Daniell (wdaniell(at)etb.net.co)   

    

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 4:20 AM  

    

Subject: bonding cockpit module to hull  

    

   

  

Can anyone help with this?  

   

I have a number of (what appear to be) voids in the adhesive bonding the cockpit module to the outer skin especially in the two aft joints – (the one at the rear face of the fuel tank and the one aft of that).    

   

I have tried injecting redux but I can’t seem to make that work…any hints?  

   

The option I thought of was to grind the whole flange down to the skin and then re-construct the join with a bid +/- 45 lay up.  

   

Any ideas?  Anyone resolve the same issue?  

   

Thanks  

   

Will  



 03-Jan-08 15:52   	  Quote: 	
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Date: 6/01/2008 11:57 AM  	
  

       

  

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No virus found in this incoming message.

 03-Jan-08 15:52  

     

  03-Jan-08 15:52

    [quote][b]

ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: bonding cockpit module to hull

Hi! Will 

Sorry to have missed this sissue before now becxause what I have to say is too late,..... "had you held a strong light behind the two reduxed surfaces you would have seen the voids to attend to them prior to curing. I'm surprised you can't inject with a liquid redux mix . 

If you have removed the flanges you must do a good job with the scuff sanding to do lay ups against. 

Regards 

Bob Harrison G-PTAG   Happy New Year!



 [quote]----Original Message----

From: wdaniell(at)etb.net.co

Date: 08/01/2008 11:52 

To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

Subj: RE: Europa-List: bonding cockpit module to hull



       v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}  <![endif]-->     

Bob<?xml:namespace prefix = o /> 

Quite right this is exactly what is happening in some places - but not in others.  I tried injecting but could not make it work.  Became seriously frustrated (know the feeling?)â€“. 

  

So I ground down one and found that the voids are actually bubbles in the redux.   So I ground down the rest of the flange and was glad that I did â€“ a number of voids.  Not I think enough to imperil the structure but enough to upset me. 

  

So what I am left with is the rearmost flange ground down to the skin.   I am going to do I do a staggered 3 ply lay up along the rear flange onto the hull. 

  

Any thoughts on this anyone? 

  

Another question is why this happened.  If I were gluing in the cockpit module again 

1.       I would use Â¼ bolts at the key places especially at the firewall lower bottom 

2.       I would support the hull in a webbing sling so that the hull could conform to the cockpit module (I made a cradle based on the profile of the cockpit module) which it must be admitted is roughly what the europa cradle suggests 

Will 

  

    

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Laptop JR

Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 17:10

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: bonding cockpit module to hull



 

   

William

  

 

  

could it be that there appears to be no adhesive where the module and the fuselage are actually touching, well almost touching? and that where there is a gap filled, there is enough to black out any transparency?

  

That is what I thought happened with mine so long ago.

  

 

  

JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz

  

 

  

do not archive

 [quote]  

---

wdaniell(at)etb.net.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:11 am Post subject: bonding cockpit module to hull

Bob   

   

Thanks happy new year.  

   

I did all of that which is how I found the voidsâ€¦but buggered if I could do anything with injecting even though I started with a very small drill one hole and working up through 1/8 to 3/16 for the other.Â    

   

I have no idea why this should be so.Â  Maybe I am doing something wrong probably being thick.  

   

I think also that I am being â€œpickyâ€Â  nevertheless I feel more comfortable with a complete bond.Â Â  I donâ€™t see why a lay up joint should not be as strong or stronger than a redux joint.Â  Logically the redux joins a fiberglass structure and therefore the structure is only as strong as its weakest link which I am assuming is the (peel) strength of the fiberglass because when you test redux the fiberglass tends to fail before the redux.Â  So a fiberglass to fiberglass bond should be as strong as a fiberglass/redux/fiberglass bond.  

   

I hopeâ€¦  

   

Will  

   

   

     

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of ptag.dev(at)tiscali.co.uk

 Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 10:19

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: bonding cockpit module to hull  

  

   

Hi! Will  

Sorry to have missed this sissue before now becxause what I have to say is too late,..... "had you held a strong light behind the two reduxed surfaces you would have seen the voids to attend to them prior to curing. I'm surprised you can't inject with a liquid redux mix .  

If you have removed the flanges you must do a good job with the scuff sanding to do lay ups against.  

Regards  

Bob Harrison G-PTAG   Happy New Year!   	  Quote: 	
		    

----Original Message----

 From: wdaniell(at)etb.net.co

 Date: 08/01/2008 11:52 

 To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subj: RE: bonding cockpit module to hull    

Bob  

Quite right this is exactly what is happening in some places - but not in others.  I tried injecting but could not make it work.  Became seriously frustrated (know the feeling?)â€“.  

   

So I ground down one and found that the voids are actually bubbles in the redux.   So I ground down the rest of the flange and was glad that I did â€“ a number of voids.  Not I think enough to imperil the structure but enough to upset me.  

   

So what I am left with is the rearmost flange ground down to the skin.   I am going to do I do a staggered 3 ply lay up along the rear flange onto the hull.  

   

Any thoughts on this anyone?  

   

Another question is why this happened.  If I were gluing in the cockpit module again  

1.       I would use Â¼ bolts at the key places especially at the firewall lower bottom  

2.       I would support the hull in a webbing sling so that the hull could conform to the cockpit module (I made a cradle based on the profile of the cockpit module) which it must be admitted is roughly what the europa cradle suggests  

Will  

   

       

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Laptop JR

 Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 17:10

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: bonding cockpit module to hull  

  

  

     

William  

    

   

    

could it be that there appears to be no adhesive where the module and the fuselage are actually touching, well almost touching? and that where there is a gap filled, there is enough to black out any transparency?  

    

That is what I thought happened with mine so long ago.  

    

   

    

JR (Bob) Gowing UK Kit 327 in Oz  

    

   

    

do not archive  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: William Daniell (wdaniell(at)etb.net.co)   

    

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 4:20 AM  

    

Subject: bonding cockpit module to hull  

    

   

  

Can anyone help with this?  

   

I have a number of (what appear to be) voids in the adhesive bonding the cockpit module to the outer skin especially in the two aft joints â€“ (the one at the rear face of the fuel tank and the one aft of that).    

   

I have tried injecting redux but I canâ€™t seem to make that workâ€¦any hints?  

   

The option I thought of was to grind the whole flange down to the skin and then re-construct the join with a bid +/- 45 lay up.  

   

Any ideas?  Anyone resolve the same issue?  

   

Thanks  

   

Will  



 03-Jan-08 15:52   	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution 	
      

  

Date: 6/01/2008 11:57 AM  	
  

       

  

n their emails.

 Try SPAMfight    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com 	
0 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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 03-Jan-08 15:52  

  



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  03-Jan-08 15:52

    [quote][b]

jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: bonding cockpit module to hull

Re injecting into voids: grinding the injection needle square makes it a 

lot more usable.

Regards,

Jan de Jong

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