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skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:03 pm Post subject: Starting my 701 project

Ok well I am bitting the bullet and starting a 701  so guys, I will be making wing ribs and horizontal ribs and the like first. So  anyone interested in taking a short cut and think you might want to buy some  parts instead of making them I will be reasonable on pricing so let me know so I  can make ones for you while I make them for myself.

  

 David Mikesell

230 Theresa Drive,  #6

Cloverdale, CA 95425

209-224-4485

skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com (skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com)

www.skyguynca.com

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:52 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

David,

Most of the people on this site will not be interested in buying parts 

from someone other than their intellectual source, Zenith.  The parts 

you speak of are in Zenith inventory

and the build we enjoy is based on dealing with the company who's life 

blood is totally dependent upon this enterprise.   The Zenith people are 

good people and we'd not appreciate anyone trying to convert their 

intellectual property this way.  During your construct, who would you 

call when you had an engineering problem, or a quality problem, Zenith?  

I think not!



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

 



skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Ok well I am bitting the bullet and starting a 701 so guys, I will be 

 making wing ribs and horizontal ribs and the like first. So anyone 

 interested in taking a short cut and think you might want to buy some 

 parts instead of making them I will be reasonable on pricing so let me 

 know so I can make ones for you while I make them for myself.

  

 David Mikesell

 230 Theresa Drive, #6

 Cloverdale, CA 95425

 209-224-4485

 skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com <mailto:skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com>

 www.skyguynca.com <http://www.skyguynca.com>

rjscep(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

 	  Quote: 	
		   How are you good at making lihtning holes??

--- skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com wrote:
	




 	  Quote: 	
		   Ok well I am bitting the bullet and starting a 701

 so guys, I will be making wing ribs and horizontal

 ribs and the like first. So anyone interested in

 taking a short cut and think you might want to buy

 some parts instead of making them I will be

 reasonable on pricing so let me know so I can make

 ones for you while I make them for myself.

 

 David Mikesell

 230 Theresa Drive, #6

 Cloverdale, CA 95425

 209-224-4485

 skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com

 www.skyguynca.com


	


Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

cj.tremblay(at)videotron.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

David,   

   

I agree with Larry comments you can’t do that, offers to do pieces for other builders to save them costs or labour time. Zenith are one of the more generous constructors who made fabrication and detail plans, and sell it,  to permit to builders to do their pieces themselves.     

You will be out of law if you doing that kind of services.   

Christian Tremblay  

A guy who build a CH640 aircraft from plan  

http://www.zodiac640.com/  

  

         

  

De : owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] De la part de skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com

 Envoyé : Sunday, January 06, 2008 1:57 AM

 À : zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Objet : Starting my 701 project  

  

     

Ok well I am bitting the bullet and starting a 701 so guys, I will be making wing ribs and horizontal ribs and the like first. So anyone interested in taking a short cut and think you might want to buy some parts instead of making them I will be reasonable on pricing so let me know so I can make ones for you while I make them for myself.  

    

   

    

David Mikesell

 230 Theresa Drive, #6

 Cloverdale, CA 95425

 209-224-4485

 skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com (skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com)

 www.skyguynca.com  

  

     	  Quote: 	
		  



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

Larry, I have been watching your posts on here for a while. I must admit 

your implication that I am stealing interlectual property is a insult. I am 

just offering to help out if someone wants it. I did not post on here that I 

am making a inventory to sell. I just said if anyone needs ribs while I am 

making mine I would not mind helping out. I live right by Mr Heintz here at 

Quality Sport Planes and have alot of respect for the guy and the company. 

Now if helping someone out with parts and advice is stealing, well Larry get 

off the list because you have been doing it for a while.



David Mikesell

230 Theresa Drive, #6

Cloverdale, CA 95425

209-224-4485

skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com

www.skyguynca.com

---

skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

Look, I am not wanting to argue with you guys. I am  breaking no laws!!!!!! I have been building and repairing airplanes for  years!!!!! Cessna, Piper and Beech aircraftI have built parts for and not broken  any laws. I am not looking to sell parts for a bunch of people. I am just  offering to help while I build mine, that is it. You speak of technical support  violation, parts violation and such,...........well guys (by the way I have all  the DVDs and think the guys are a great help) Homebuilt help is selling  technical support and its not Zenith. I am just building and offering to knock  out a few extra ribs for people who need them. NOT STEALING  ANYTHING!!

  

 David Mikesell

230 Theresa Drive, #6

Cloverdale, CA  95425

209-224-4485

skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com (skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com)

www.skyguynca.com

 [quote]   ---

skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

I have flanging dies.



David Mikesell

230 Theresa Drive, #6

Cloverdale, CA 95425

209-224-4485

skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com

www.skyguynca.com

---

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

There is a difference between two guys sharing the work of construction

of a plans built plane and someone building parts to sell directly. 

David, are these parts of your own design? Or are you using the design

of Chris Heintz to make your parts? Do you have a different wing for the

701? No? 

I noticed you are in Cloverdale California so have you told Michael

Heintz, the son of the designer that you are going to retail parts you

have made from his fathers designs. Thus possibly stealing from both

Michael Heintz and his father.

As a distributor, Michael is obligated as we all are to support the

builders with valid serial #'s and don't get me wrong it is one of the

best things I do all day, I enjoy talking to builders and helping as

much as possible. The plans that are bought are from Michael and all

other Distributors are the Royalties paid to the designer. SO if a

Distributor can sell a few parts then he is compensated for the time he

spends in helping others through the decision and building process. 



Chris Heintz has always wanted people to be able to afford his designs,

sometimes it just involves more work and time. Therefore, for the most

part builders are able to build from plans. 

Then we have people Like Dave that want to make some money, either to

offset the costs of there own building or to profit. I guess the only

real answer to this is to ensure that no future plans are made

available, only kits! 



I hope it never comes to that but it is a growing trend, if we as a

building community don't get upset at these actions of individuals, or

try to stop it then we can kiss our future plans building projects

good-bye. Even I have made this decision. In making floats I have

invested a great amount in tooling and invested a huge sum of time. I

will not be releasing the plans until I have recovered the cost, and

since I wish to keep my prices as low as possible it will be a very long

time before I, if ever release plans. This decision is a direct

reflection from discussions on this list. 



You can argue the ownership of intellectual property all you want. The

final result is no more plans available for new models, maybe when the

new design is 10 years old It may be time to release the plans as a

company is gearing up for there next release. 

I never hear from 801 people about making parts for others, or of 801

copies. Funny that it is the only kit from Zenith that only comes with a

builders manual and not a set of plans.



This has not come to pass yet, or has it. The patriot is a LSA only? I

would like to see plans for new models become available, but if asked by

the company today I would say not to release the plans. 

Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

president(at)can-zacaviation.com

www.can-zacaviation.com 

--

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

This has been beat to death about a month ago and both sides are right so  give it a rest.



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

As for Homebuilthelp.com . Are you delusional ? Surly if you have his scratch built DVD then you should realize that his DVD’s are encouraged as educational. Not as offering to sell parts to others, which in your first post is all you did. You did not say you were going to teach people you stated that you were willing to sell parts that you have made from the Zenith plans.  

Also when was the last time you or ANYONE has seen a bill for technical support from Zenith. The HomebuiltHELP DVD’s are a support to the Zenith factory and community by reducing Tech support calls. Helping others understand the process.  

   

I may have miss read your intentions and you may genuinely wanted to just help some people out, but you should re-think your first letter.   

   

     

Mark Townsend  

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.  

president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)  

www.can-zacaviation.com   

  

   

--

psm(at)ATT.NET
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

Hi David,



 I want to tell you that it is not everyone on the list that thinks you are violating laws.  It is a small, but loud, group of people who don't have any clue about law or business.  That doesn't stop them from expressing their opinions.



 I am all for free speech and I would fight for everyone's right to express their ideas.  On the other hand, I am painfully tired of listening to all the people who think they can invent laws to protect Zenith aircraft designs and services.  



 If indeed there were such laws, I would like to know what government agency enforces the laws.  Do you go to your local policeman to get this law enforced?  What does the law say?  What is the penalty for violating it?  



 If the law were as protective of designs as some of these people think, then nobody would ever be able to use a wheel since that was invented by someone else a long time ago.  Indeed, there are wheels on Zenith designed airplanes so they must be in violation of this law too.



 Paul

 XL fuselage

 do not archive

   



 At 09:47 AM 1/6/2008, you wrote:

 [quote]Look, I am not wanting to argue with you guys. I am breaking no laws!!!!!! I have been building and repairing airplanes for years!!!!! Cessna, Piper and Beech aircraftI have built parts for and not broken any laws. I am not looking to sell parts for a bunch of people. I am just offering to help while I build mine, that is it. You speak of technical support violation, parts violation and such,...........well guys (by the way I have all the DVDs and think the guys are a great help) Homebuilt help is selling technical support and its not Zenith. I am just building and offering to knock out a few extra ribs for people who need them. NOT STEALING ANYTHING!!

  

 David Mikesell[b]

rjscep(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

 	  Quote: 	
		   I would think that if a guy wanted to build from

 scratch, he would be building from scratch or he 

 would buy the kit. Why would he spend more time 

 bulding extra parts? I know from my own 701 project

 that it took a while just to make my own parts, but

 did make tools that help me get over the hurdles. I

 wouldn't mind sharing ideas with anyone. Thats what

 homebuilding is about. Do not archive...

--- skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com wrote:
	




[quote] 

 <skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com>

 

 Larry, I have been watching your posts on here for a

 while. I must admit 

 your implication that I am stealing interlectual

 property is a insult. I am 

 just offering to help out if someone wants it. I did

 not post on here that I 

 am making a inventory to sell. I just said if anyone

 needs ribs while I am 

 making mine I would not mind helping out. I live

 right by Mr Heintz here at 

 Quality Sport Planes and have alot of respect for

 the guy and the company. 

 Now if helping someone out with parts and advice is

 stealing, well Larry get 

 off the list because you have been doing it for a

 while.

 

 David Mikesell

 230 Theresa Drive, #6

 Cloverdale, CA 95425

 209-224-4485

 skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com

 www.skyguynca.com

 ---

skyguynca

Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 128

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok people, I am not the Devil  incarnate!!!!!!!!!! All I said was I was building ribs for the wings,  horizontal and tail and if anyone needed some while I was making mine I would  help. That is all, I  never said I was making a inventory to sell.  You guys get a grip.

  

 David Mikesell

230 Theresa Drive, #6

Cloverdale, CA  95425

209-224-4485

skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com (skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com)

www.skyguynca.com

 [quote]   ---

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

When I bought my kit and plans from Zenith I signed a legally enforceable

contract. I'm including a quote from it below.



BUT throwing around words like "theft" and "breaking the law" just overheats

the issue. NOBODY is trying to, or going to get rich building kit planes.



Accept the offer in the spirit it was given. Ask David to run his idea past

Zenith - it is their rights we are arguing about. I'm certain David respects

Zenith as a company otherwise he would not be trusting them with his LIFE.



"2. This contract permits the buyer to build one airplane or part of it in

the Custom-Built, Experimental, Ultralight, etc. category. The type of

aircraft and the Drawings serial number must be visibly marked on the

vertical tail or fuselage sides of the aircraft. The buyer is advised that

the Drawings, Manuals, and/or parts contain proprietary rights. The buyer

covenants and agrees that he will not: a) Reproduce, b) Communicate, c)

Transfer, sell, exchange or modify them or any part of them, d) Permit any

other person to use said drawings, manual, and/or parts, without the written

permission of the Company. The sole purpose of the plans, drawings, manuals,

and parts is strictly educational and there is no implied or expressed

warranty. During the construction the buyer is to cause the structure and

installations to be inspected and approved by the relevant government and/or

aviation authority (FAA). The Buyer agrees to notify the Company in writing

immediately of the sale of any Drawings and Manuals, parts, components, or

kit, whether completed or not, supplying the complete name and address of

the new owner(s)."



-- Craig

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

David,

At the header of my page, it says "*(I do */*not*/* make part(s) that 

Zenith sells or that are representative of Zenith proprietary product 

inventory.)"

*There have been other offers like yours, and as well meant as it 

sounded it just isn't the correct thing to do.  We're talking about 

parts here, not advice.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com wrote:

[quote] 



 Larry, I have been watching your posts on here for a while. I must 

 admit your implication that I am stealing interlectual property is a 

 insult. I am just offering to help out if someone wants it. I did not 

 post on here that I am making a inventory to sell. I just said if 

 anyone needs ribs while I am making mine I would not mind helping out. 

 I live right by Mr Heintz here at Quality Sport Planes and have alot 

 of respect for the guy and the company. Now if helping someone out 

 with parts and advice is stealing, well Larry get off the list because 

 you have been doing it for a while.



 David Mikesell

 230 Theresa Drive, #6

 Cloverdale, CA 95425

 209-224-4485

 skyguynca(at)skyguynca.com

 www.skyguynca.com

 ---

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

Paul, you are right, but these replies have less to do with the letter of the law then the ethics of the individual and there intent. If we all believed in the letter of the law and ethics did not play a role in decisions then you would not see any designer provide plans for his aircraft. Nor would you see any future plans become available. I fight for the future plans builders, which right now is in more jeopardy then you can believe and there are some really great designs on the board for the future. I have no problem with someone making parts for a friend and vice versa sharing jobs to complete there aircraft.   

   

Each of us have signed a Builders Agreement to get our plans, Line 2 states this  

   

This contract permits the buyer to build one airplane or part of it in the Custom-Built, Experimental, Ultralight, etc. category. The type of aircraft and the Drawings serial number must be visibly  

marked on the vertical tail or fuselage sides of the aircraft. The buyer is advised that the Drawings, Manuals, and/or parts contain proprietary rights. The buyer covenants and agrees that he will not:  

a) Reproduce, b) Communicate, c) Transfer, sell, exchange or modify them or any part of them, d) Permit any other person to use said drawings, manual, and/or parts, without the written permission of the Company.   

   

I am old fashioned and truly believe that a mans handshake and signature is his ethical bond. IF I sign a document that says I cannot use a persons design to sell his parts without expressed permission then maybe I shouldn’t, legal or not, I have signed my name to it.  So after reading the line from the contract Paul, do you still feel it is right to make a part from the plans and sell it in any way? I am at a loss, I cannot force my views upon you or anyone and all my ramblings here on this subject are just that they are my opinion, but god I hope more people out there share my view then yours.  

     

Mark   

  

   

--

skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: Starting my 701 project

Hey Dave,

   

  I strongly urge you to just FORGET trying to help these people out.  They aren't worth getting your shorts in a bunch and driving your blood pressure through the roof.  I learned my lesson last week, that's why I rarely post anything on here any longer.  Its more a BASHING TIME on here rather than trying to help someone out, OR they just want to be make really STUPID and ludicrous statements back and forth.   It ends up being just a damned pissing match.......(OH, did I just say that????  Ask me if I'm sorry....go ahead, I dare you.  Ban me....I really don't give a good rats ass either......damn, I did it again, didn't I???)

  Like I said Dave, these people aren't worthy of your help.  I only drop on here when I'm not working on my plane......maybe they need to be working on their's too instead of flapping their traps, eh?? 

    

  Larry H



        Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: Starting my 701 project

I sell nose wheel strut fairings on eBay and in no  way is it illegal.  These fairings are not offered by Zenith or anybody  else.  I too just wanted to help other builders get their project finished  easier..

  

 Steve W.

 [quote]   ---

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: Starting my 701 project

I think that a lot of people are missing the point as to why Zenith sells  plans. I am not sure and have no way of knowing the number of plans they have  sold but I would be willing to bet it is a lot more than the planes that have  been built using them. Bottom line is they make money selling them. Just like  all aircraft kit manufactures make money selling the tail kit cheap because they  know the majority of builders wont finish the rest of the plane and can't afford  the whole kit at one time. 

  

 I think Mark has a bias view and is one of the most outspoken about this.  It is my opinion that if I bought the plans I can get my parts where ever I want  to. I can pay the welding shop to weld my parts for me or the engine shop  to rebuild my engine. If someone out there takes the time to make the forms and  buy the dies then why should I have to be forced to do the same thing if another  builder will make them for me and save me the time and money. If both builders  have a set of plans then Zenith has no bitch. Mark seems to want it both ways  you buy the plans but must buy any parts from zenith when it clearly states you  can make one part per plan and if  two builders get together with two  sets of plans then wouldn't that be 2 parts???? Even if one of them makes a  little money from it to recoup his tooling costs? Bottom line is both  builders only made 1 part.

  

 I just ordered another kit Friday so I do support zenith but I also have a  set of scratch built plans and I plan to make templates of the parts from the  kit so i can build one from scratch also but the parts I can't make I will buy  from zenith unless another builder and I can get together and I can make my  parts cheaper and I see nothing wrong with that. 

  

 I think a better way to do this would be to RENT out your forms and dies  and let the builder make his parts from them. That way no one has a bitch  because Zenith doesn't loan out their forms.

  

  

 Jeff

 another 601 on the way



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: Starting my 701 project

Steve and Dave,

You're absolutely right. The plans allow you to build or have someone 

build one set of parts for the aircraft described by the plans.  You can 

dispose of them as an aircraft

or sell them as parts.  The problem with selling more than one part or 

set of parts described by the plans is that the agreement made by the 

plans buyer forbids

making parts repeatedly for sale. 



That's the crux of the discussion.  Should you make one extra part to 

profit a dollar on it or make 100 parts and

profit 100 dollars on it is theft of intellectual property, violation of 

the contract and becomes an obvious moral issue of mutual trust.



Knowing that you never intended to do anything of that sort of thing 

makes this discussion a moot point.  Most people don't set out to commit 

a fraudulent act on a business

and I don't think you did either.  It initially just sounded wrong as 

most of us have heard of this kind of nonsense from people with *real* 

moral deficits.



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com



steve wrote:

[quote] I sell nose wheel strut fairings on eBay and in no way is it illegal.  

 These fairings are not offered by Zenith or anybody else.  I too just 

 wanted to help other builders get their project finished easier..

  

 Steve W.



     ---

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