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B&C alternator for M14

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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:14 am Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

I have exactly the same installed on my Yak 50. Works well but II’ve connected the output of the regulator circuit (behind the crowbar) to the main bus in my Yak50 (in the big black box mounted on the firewall at the inside; “shitok pitanije” or something but in cyrillic). So the “generator fault” indicator now serves as a “master on” switch. I’ve another light for the alternator fault.  

   

JAn  

   

   

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Herb Coussons

 Sent: zondag 6 januari 2008 6:33

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: B&C alternator for M14  

  

  

       

Attached is the info on the lightweight 10A alternator from B&C.  This is the one on my Yak 55.  The photos at the bottom show the unit as mounted on the upper back of the case.  There are just 2 wires that leave the Alt going to the regulator, blue in  the photo, just behind the right mag  The regulator is mounted in front of the firewall on the right, below the oil tank and medial to the battery tray.  There are 2 wires leaving the regulator red/blk that enter the wiring harness.  I have not unwrapped the whole set of wires as the problem I had related to the 2A CB just before the bus.  In my installation the Alt is not switched on the panel.  The old "gen" switch is wired into to the main breaker panel and the CB for "gen" is pulled so the GenFailure light on the panel is not lit.  The voltage meter in the cockpit is wired in as i can see if the Alt is not charging.  I can also see a variable output with the engine speed.  i do not pretend to know all of the facts, but reading the long discussions i am not sure mine is wired right since the switch is inop.   

    

   

    

Herb  

  

    

   

    

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mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

There really is no right or wrong Herb, per se... But I would consider

wiring the old Generator switch in to disconnect the Pmagnet alternator

from the rest of the aircraft.  



Mark

 



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

There are a couple of different ways that you could make the light work

like it used to.  One would be to put a diode in line with the main feed

AFTER the wire that leads to the old generator light.  This would allow

the light to come on if the alternator or any part of the regulator

circuit, or the over-voltage protection failed.  Of course the kit

already contains a NEW light that you put in that tells you when the

over-voltage relay has tripped, but I think I would like the idea of the

old generator light telling me that the new alternator system had failed

(in any way) better than that.  It is all up to the installer, but if

you can think of what you want, and how you want it to operate, it can

likely be re-designed to do that. 



Mark Bitterlich

 



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jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:54 am Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

Yes, that's correct. I've opted for a solution where I can go back to the

Russian system easily. I just have to remove the B&C alternator, and put the

generator in again.

And then I can leave in the new circuitry too ....



Jan



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cliff(at)gesoco.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

I know this discussion is for the B&C, but I've received a lot of wiring 

questions for the Skytronics as well.



Attached is the wiring digram for Skytronics showing the warning light 

installation.



This is not shown in the original Skytronics wiring diagrams, but is 

found in the literature.



Cheers,

Cliff



Jan Mevis wrote:

[quote] 



 Yes, that's correct. I've opted for a solution where I can go back to the

 Russian system easily. I just have to remove the B&C alternator, and put the

 generator in again.

 And then I can leave in the new circuitry too ....



 Jan



 --

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brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

On Jan 8, 2008, at 6:11 AM, Cliff Coy wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I know this discussion is for the B&C, but I've received a lot of  

 wiring questions for the Skytronics as well.



 Attached is the wiring digram for Skytronics showing the warning  

 light installation.



 This is not shown in the original Skytronics wiring diagrams, but is  

 found in the literature.


	


There is something wrong with this diagram. If that is indeed the  

voltage regulator, there is no way for the regulator to properly sense  

the bus voltage as there is no direct connection from the bus to the  

regulator, only the warning light circuit. If they are sensing the bus  

voltage through the warning light then regulation is going to suffer.



OTOH, if the device labled "voltage regulator" is just some sort of OV  

protection and the real VR is inside the alternator (internally  

regulated) then the internal VR could sense the bus through the 'B'  

lead (output).



Regardless, the diagram does not appear correct as labeled.



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:15 am Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

Brian, Jan is telling me that the B&C Perm Mag system will not output from the voltage regulator without a battery present.  Can you figure that out?  It is news to me. 

  

 Mark

 



 

 ---

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

On Jan 9, 2008, at 12:07 AM, Yak Pilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Brian, Jan is telling me that the B&C Perm Mag system will not  

 output from the voltage regulator without a battery present.  Can  

 you figure that out?  It is news to me.


	


It is possible that it will not work without a battery present but  

that would surprise me. Certainly the PM alternator (dynamo) will  

produce output without any excitation as the magnet provides the  

excitation. But I do not claim to be the final authority. B&C can do a  

better job of representing their product than I can. I would just call  

Bill Bainbridge at B&C and ask him.



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

I'm not entirely certain, but the bridge rectifier has two silicon

controlled rectifiers instead of ordinary diodes. These SCR's need a current

on their gate to function. I suppose that this is the reason why this

PMR1-28 regulator needs a battery voltage on the blac and red wires. (IMHO

!!!!)



Jan



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

Hook the red wire to ground through a light bulb and try it again.  



Mark

 



--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

On Jan 9, 2008, at 1:23 PM, Jan Mevis wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'm not entirely certain, but the bridge rectifier has two silicon

 controlled rectifiers instead of ordinary diodes. These SCR's need a  

 current

 on their gate to function. I suppose that this is the reason why this

 PMR1-28 regulator needs a battery voltage on the blac and red wires.  

 (IMHO

 !!!!)


	


It certainly could. Frankly, I would have powered the internal control  

circuitry from the unregulated input from the dynamo but that's just me.

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

Disregard, Jan, you're right.  I took the darn thing apart and checked

it myself.  I also checked it using a variable AC input.  It is a ...

IMHO.... A less than perfect design.   If your battery goes totally

dead, and you prop the engine and get it started, you still will have no

voltage output on this darn thing.  Ridiculous.  



Jan, what you could do would be to build an additional circuit for this.

I know if it were my airplane, I sure as heck would.  Tap off the two

blue wire, go to a double pole single throw switch.  Pushbutton would be

ideal.  From there run to a full wave bridge rectifier.  Run that to a

medium sized cap, not huge mind you, but about 2000 uf.  From there run

to a 7824 voltage regulator heatsinked for 5 amps.  Connect that plus

output through about a 10 amp diode directly to the output of B&C's

voltage regulator.  



If you ever lose total battery, you then pull the over-voltage breaker

thus disconnecting the B&C from the aircraft load.  You prop the

aircraft, push in your new button, and that will flash start your B&C

voltage regulator as long as engine RPM is "up there".  When you let go,

the really big 22,000 uf cap that they have on the output of the

regulator will act as a mini-battery and keep the thing operating until

you bring it back down to idle.  Hopefully, your battery will then also

pick up some kind of charge.  



More simple still.. Do the same thing, but instead of the circuit, put

in a small 24 volt nicad.  Diode isolate it, and again use the same

"rest of the design and procedure" to get going again.  



Lastly, and this is the best idea.  TRASH that stupid circuit and build

your own.  



Mark



P.s.  I respect B&C for their fine products and think the world of them.

However, I personally think that any voltage regulator connected to the

output of an extremely reliable PMG alternator that REQUIRES battery

voltate in order to even operate is less than ideal.  And ... Yes, I

think it is actually stupid... Even though that is much less than

polite.  Their 35 and 50 amp systems are nothing like this and are much

better.   



--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

On Jan 9, 2008, at 4:52 PM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Lastly, and this is the best idea.  TRASH that stupid circuit and  

 build

 your own.


	


That is the right idea. As I said, use a boost/buck switching  

regulator circuit.



 	  Quote: 	
		   P.s.  I respect B&C for their fine products and think the world of  

 them.

 However, I personally think that any voltage regulator connected to  

 the

 output of an extremely reliable PMG alternator that REQUIRES battery

 voltate in order to even operate is less than ideal.  And ... Yes, I

 think it is actually stupid... Even though that is much less than

 polite.  Their 35 and 50 amp systems are nothing like this and are  

 much

 better.


	


I can actually see a possible reason for it. If your battery is off- 

line, you probably want the dynamo to go off line too. OTOH, if you  

have a proper regulator it should work just fine even if the battery  

is off line.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:37 pm Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

Thanks for the idea! I'll work out something.



Jan



--

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

Anyway, with a bad battery, I can't start my Yak 50 at all, since the air

start valve solenoid does not open (and unlike the Yak 52, I can't touch it

from the cockpit). 



Jan



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

Which can be rectified by some shroud line and a little imagination.

Been there, done that. 



Mark 



 



--

jan.mevis(at)informavia.b
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: B&C alternator for M14

Yes, of course. But there's an advantage too. I had it too in my Yak 50. Bad

battery, no start. I did not notice the status of the battery before because

the voltmeter is broken since I bought the plane. And then I prefer to

change the battery before flying.



Jan



--

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