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av8r2488(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: engine selection

I have been following the talk on engine choices...just another thought to add....I have a series 5 outback and will have to make an engine choice soon because of wing sweep (or lack of) and would like to know your thoughts on a Jabiru 2200 vs a 0-200 cont. Heres my thinking....the jabiru weighs in at 138 and the 0-200 at 187....ready to go...how much of an even trade is this...50 pounds for 20 hp? Now I guess we can close the weight gap by going light weight starter and alternator by about 12-15 pounds..I am still researching that...I like the simplicity of a direct drive air-cooled engine..how much does the 912 series really weigh when you factor the radiator, hoses, coolant,expansion tank...ect? Does it fall somewhere in this weight range? I had a Cessna 140 for 22 years and changed the 85 hp to an 0-200 and doubled the rate of climb but only gained 2mph in cruise. Since excess hp power is merely the ability to climb faster and cruise is a function of

 aerodynamics will the weight savings be traded off for horse power? Also can the wings be set at zero sweep and the battery moved to adjust the CG? Just getting started in this as I just bought the Outback and got it home a week ago....still looking it over and wondering what I have gotten myself into here.....If there are any builders who would rather respond off list feel free to contact me direct at av8r2488(at)yahoo.com   Thanks for your advice and help this is a great forum.

Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: engine selection

Here are some numbers to ponder:

O-200, 100 Hp (at)2750, 6.3GPH, 187#

J2200, 71Hp (at)2750, 4GPH(at)??%, 132#

J3300, 107Hp (at)2750, 6.87GPH(at)75%, 178#

R912ul 81Hp (at)5800 (2386 prop),6.3GPH, 121#

         (at)5500, 67.7Hp, 5.92GPH

         (at)5000, 58.4Hp, 5.1GPH

R912uls 100Hp (at)5800 (2386 prop),7.1GPH, 125#

         (at)5500, 79.3Hp, 6.14GPH

         (at)5000, 68.4Hp, 5.3GPH



Data from the manufacturers web links. Put your own values in the 

above to compare.

BTW, Jim C have you looked at the KF4 3300 in the Greeley EAA hanger?

Paul

====================



At 05:56 AM 1/12/2008, great bear wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I have been following the talk on engine choices...just another 

thought to add....I have a series 5 outback and will have to make an 

engine choice soon because of wing sweep (or lack of) and would like 

to know your thoughts on a Jabiru 2200 vs a 0-200 cont. Heres my 

thinking....the jabiru weighs in at 138 and the 0-200 at 

187....ready to go...how much of an even trade is this...50 pounds 

for 20 hp? Now I guess we can close the weight gap by going light 

weight starter and alternator by about 12-15 pounds..I am still 

researching that...I like the simplicity of a direct drive 

air-cooled engine..how much does the 912 series really weigh when 

you factor the radiator, hoses, coolant,expansion tank...ect? Does 

it fall somewhere in this weight range? I had a Cessna 140 for 22 

years and changed the 85 hp to an 0-200 and doubled the rate of 

climb but only gained 2mph in cruise. Since excess hp power is 

merely the ability to climb faster and cruise is a function of

  aerodynamics will the weight savings be traded off for horse 

 power? Also can the wings be set at zero sweep and the battery 

 moved to adjust the CG? Just getting started in this as I just 

 bought the Outback and got it home a week ago....still looking it 

 over and wondering what I have gotten myself into here.....If there 

 are any builders who would rather respond off list feel free to 

 contact me direct at av8r2488(at)yahoo.com   Thanks for your advice 

 and help this is a great forum.

Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

JohnA

Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 26
Location: Woodland, CA

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: engine selection

I'm putting a C-85 into my when I get it.  The choice is driven by the fact 

that I have a C-85 on hand - newly overhauled with the O-200 STC (crank and 

pistons) installed.



I'll be putting a lighter starter and an alternator on it, so that will free 

up a few pounds.



I've been curious about the Jabiru engines though.  They turn up quite a bit 

faster than the O-200 or C-85 necessitating a smaller prop.  How does this 

affect efficiency/performance?



John Alexander

Currently at sea - SBX-1



On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 05:56:37 -0800 (PST), great bear wrote

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I have been following the talk on engine choices...just another 

 thought to add....I have a series 5 outback and will have to make an 

 engine choice soon because of wing sweep (or lack of) and would like 

 to know your thoughts on a Jabiru 2200 vs a 0-200 cont. Heres my 

 thinking....the jabiru weighs in at 138 and the 0-200 at 

 187....ready to go...how much of an even trade is this...50 pounds 

 for 20 hp? Now I guess we can close the weight gap by going light 

 weight starter and alternator by about 12-15 pounds..I am still 

 researching that...I like the simplicity of a direct drive air-

 cooled engine..how much does the 912 series really weigh when you 

 factor the radiator, hoses, coolant,expansion tank...ect? Does it 

 fall somewhere in this weight range? I had a Cessna 140 for 22 years 

 and changed the 85 hp to an 0-200 and doubled the rate of climb but 

 only gained 2mph in cruise. Since excess hp power is merely the 

 ability to climb faster and cruise is a function of aerodynamics 

 will the weight savings be traded off for horse power? Also can the 

 wings be set at zero sweep and the battery moved to adjust the CG? 

 Just getting started in this as I just bought the Outback and got it 

 home a week ago....still looking it over and wondering what I have 

 gotten myself into here.....If there are any builders who would 

 rather respond off list feel free to contact me direct at 

 av8r2488(at)yahoo.com   Thanks for your advice and help this is a great 

 forum.

 

 Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page. 

 http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

 


	




--

Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy.  - Ben Franklin

_________________
John Alexander
Woodland, CA

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: engine selection

The O-200 is going to come in at least 100 Lbs more then the 912ULS.  The 2200 is a joke (I think) many reports out that says that the 2 stroke 582 out climbs the Jabiru 2200.  You cannot drive a Kitfox with that little chunk of wood out front.  Before  you get involved with hundreds and hundreds of hours building.  Do some research and fly with these different airplanes.  My take is can't get better then a 912ULS.  Ivoprop.

  

 When you have to put a 25 lb battery in the tail to balance and sweep wings.  Figure

  

 Locate the Kitfox Pilot's Guide.  Part #60000.100  Look at all the aircraft weights, specifications, add  50 lbs to all their empty weights, that works out about right.  Check with these pilots and fly with them.

  

  

  

 Clint



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: alexandj(at)preachain.org

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: engine selection

 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:43:42 -0800

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Alexander" <alexandj(at)preachain.org>

 

 I'm putting a C-85 into my when I get it. The choice is driven by the fact 

 that I have a C-85 on hand - newly overhauled with the O-200 STC (crank and 

 pistons) installed.

 

 I'll be putting a lighter starter and an alternator on it, so that will free 

 up a few pounds.

 

 I've been curious about the Jabiru engines though. They turn up quite a bit 

 faster than the O-200 or C-85 necessitating a smaller prop. How does this 

 affect efficiency/performance?

 

 John Alexander

 Currently at sea - SBX-1

 

 On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 05:56:37 -0800 (PST), great bear wrote

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: great bear <av8r2488(at)yahoo.com>

 > 

 > I have been following the talk on engine choices...just another 

 > thought to add....I have a series 5 outback and will have to make an 

 > engine choice soon because of wing sweep (or lack of) and would like 

 > to know your thoughts on a Jabiru 2200 vs a 0-200 cont. Heres my 

 > thinking....the jabiru weighs in at 138 and the 0-200 at 

 > 187....ready to go...how much of an even trade is this...50 pounds 

 > for 20 hp? Now I guess we can close the weight gap by going light 

 > weight starter and alternator by about 12-15 pounds..I am still 

 > researching that...I like the simplicity of a direct drive air-

 > cooled engine..how much does the 912 series really weigh when you 

 > factor the radiator, hoses, coolant,expansion tank...ect? Does it 

 > fall somewhere in this weight range? I had a Cessna 140 for 22 years 

 > and changed the 85 hp to an 0-200 and doubled the rate of climb but 

 > only gained 2mph in cruise. Since excess hp power is merely the 

 > ability to climb faster and cruise is a function of aerodynamics 

 > will the weight savings be traded off for horse power? Also can the 

 > wings be set at zero sweep and the battery moved to adjust the CG? 

 > Just getting started in this as I just bought the Outback and got it 

 > home a week ago....still looking it over and wondering what I have 

 > gotten myself into here.....If there are any builders who would 

 > rather respond off list feel free to contact me direct at 

 > av8r2488(at)yahoo.com Thanks for your advice and help this is a great 

 > forum.

 > 

 > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. 

 > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

 > 

 

 

 --

 Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben Frank=======================

&g==
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: engine selection

The only thing you haven't factored in here is the co$t of the different

engines installed and operating.  The Conti, even de-certified, is going to

cost big time for parts and fuel.  You may also have to design and install a

pressure cowling to cool the cylinders.  Weight wise and simplicity wise I

expect the Jab will give the best bang for the lb.(kg in Canada) And the

buck.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: engine selection

Climbing isn't everything, Clint. It depends on your mission. I flew  

from Michigan to California and back. Michigan to New York and back.  

Michigan to upper Tennessee and back. Michigan to Oshkosh (summer and  

winter) and back (no biggee). While that little chunk of wood may not  

be as large or as numerous (blades) as the Rotax's use, my experience  

shows me that the Kitfox WILL fly behind the Jabiru 2200...at least  

mine does.



Oh yes, about the Jabiru being a joke...I laugh all the time while  

I'm flying mine, so it must be true. : )



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/460+ hrs

On Jan 12, 2008, at 1:32 PM, Clint Bazzill wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The O-200 is going to come in at least 100 Lbs more then the  

 912ULS.  The 2200 is a joke (I think) many reports out that says  

 that the 2 stroke 582 out climbs the Jabiru 2200.  You cannot drive  

 a Kitfox with that little chunk of wood out front.  Before  you get  

 involved with hundreds and hundreds of hours building.  Do some  

 research and fly with these different airplanes.  My take is can't  

 get better then a 912ULS.  Ivoprop.



 When you have to put a 25 lb battery in the tail to balance and  

 sweep wings.  Figure



 Locate the Kitfox Pilot's Guide.  Part #60000.100  Look at all the  

 aircraft weights, specifications, add  50 lbs to all their empty  

 weights, that works out about right.  Check with these pilots and  

 fly with them.



 Clint



 > From: alexandj(at)preachain.org

 > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 > Subject: Re: engine selection

 > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:43:42 -0800

 >

 > 

 <alexandj(at)preachain.org>

 >

 > I'm putting a C-85 into my when I get it. The choice is driven by  

 the fact

 > that I have a C-85 on hand - newly overhauled with the O-200 STC  

 (crank and

 > pistons) installed.

 >

 > I'll be putting a lighter starter and an alternator on it, so  

 that will free

 > up a few pounds.

 >

 > I've been curious about the Jabiru engines though. They turn up  

 quite a bit

 > faster than the O-200 or C-85 necessitating a smaller prop. How  

 does this

 > affect efficiency/performance?

 >

 > John Alexander

 > Currently at sea - SBX-1

 >

 > On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 05:56:37 -0800 (PST), great bear wrote

 > > 

 > >

 > > I have been following the talk on engine choices...just another

 > > thought to add....I have a series 5 outback and will have to  

 make an

 > > engine choice soon because of wing sweep (or lack of) and would  

 like

 > > to know your thoughts on a Jabiru 2200 vs a 0-200 cont. Heres my

 > > thinking....the jabiru weighs in at 138 and the 0-200 at

 > > 187....ready to go...how much of an even trade is this...50 pounds

 > > for 20 hp? Now I guess we can close the weight gap by going light

 > > weight starter and alternator by about 12-15 pounds..I am still

 > > researching that...I like the simplicity of a direct drive air-

 > > cooled engine..how much does the 912 series really weigh when you

 > > factor the radiator, hoses, coolant,expansion tank...ect? Does it

 > > fall somewhere in this weight range? I had a Cessna 140 for 22  

 years

 > > and changed the 85 hp to an 0-200 and doubled the rate of climb  

 but

 > > only gained 2mph in cruise. Since excess hp power is merely the

 > > ability to climb faster and cruise is a function of aerodynamics

 > > will the weight savings be traded off for horse power? Also can  

 the

 > > wings be set at zero sweep and the battery moved to adjust the CG?

 > > Just getting started in this as I just bought the Outback and  

 got it

 > > home a week ago....still looking it over and wondering what I have

 > > gotten myself into here.....If there are any builders who would

 > > rather respond off list feel free to contact me direct at

 > > av8r2488(at)yahoo.com Thanks for your advice and help this is a great

 > > forum.

 > >

 > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.

 > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

 > >

 >

 >

 > --

 > Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben  

 Frank=======================

 &g==

 >

 >

 >



 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List_- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 forums.matronics.com_- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 contribution_- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: engine selection

On Jan 12, 2008, at 9:17 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Climbing isn't everything, Clint. It depends on your mission. I flew 

 from Michigan to California and back. Michigan to New York and back. 

 Michigan to upper Tennessee and back. Michigan to Oshkosh (summer and 

 winter) and back (no biggee).


	


.. and with my Jabiru, I flew from Norway to Belgium and back, Clint. 

Then to north Germany and back. Then to south Germany and back ... and 

many flights to western Norway, across the mountains and several 

flights to Sweden. Flying is Lynn's and my mission! 



Seriously, both the Rotax 582 and 912 are very good engines. Saying 

anything else would be an insult for the so many happy owners. But the 

Jabiru is also a nice alternative for those who ... like alternatives. 

Both Lynn and I are unconventional; we fly Jabiru and we write why ... 

on a Macintosh! 



One thing to remember, though: Rotax makes engines for any kind of 

craft. Jabiru makes engines for their Jabiru aircraft. If you decide to 

fit one on anything else, you're within experimental aviation. Because 

I realised that and I don't know much about aviation and engines, I 

made sure to install my Jabiru as close as possible to the way they 

install it on their aircraft: I use a Jabiru oil cooler, a Jabiru 

airbox, the Jabiru recommended instruments and a Jabiru propeller. From 

the Yahoo Jabiruengines list, I think that those who have problems with 

the engine are those who think they know better than the Australian 

engineers and do things ... the experimental way.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: engine selection

On Jan 12, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Both Lynn and I are unconventional; we fly Jabiru and we write  

 why ... on a Macintosh! 


	




Must have been those left-handed cigarettes from way back when...



Lynn

(back to football)

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

av8rps

Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 33
Location: Central Wisconsin

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: engine selection

I'm not so sure that I would believe statistics as much as I would actual owner experiences. 



I'm confident if you ask around you will find the 912 owners very happy with the performance they get from their 912 Kitfoxes.  I'm very happy with the performance my 80 hp 912ul gives in my Model IV (and it's an amphib!)  A friend here on the list is currently flyiing a Model V Vixen that is equipped with the 912ul and an IVO inflight adjustable prop.  He can climb at 1200 fpm and cruise at 125 mph!  Oh yeah, his empty weight is around 775 lbs.  (He loves the way it flies so much that he sold his RV-6...)  Of course, the 100 hp 912s would just be that much better.  (actually, significantly better.  Only 20 hp more, but everyone that I know that switched from the 80 to the 100 says it feels more like 50%).  There's a reason everyone is using the 912.  And look around, not just in Kitfoxes.



I love the simplicity of the Jabiru 2200, but an 80 hp 912ul will outperform it due to the more efficient (geared) prop on the Rotax.  And while the Jab is touted as super light, I've noticed aircraft empty weights for the Jab and Rotax on identical airframes are essentially the same.  I personally think the best performance you could expect on a model V would be similar to an 0-200 powered C-150, or maybe your C-140.  It is very unlikely you'll see the Supercub-like STOL performance the Outback was designed for. 



And while Lynn here on the list makes a good case for the 2200, the Model V airframe is quite a bit heavier than his model IV.  A good example of that is my 912ul IV at 650 pounds empty, verses my friends 912ul model V Vixen at 775 pounds.  Both aircraft are similarly equipped.  Yet the V weighs 125 lbs more.  The 2200 would be maxed dragging that around I'm afraid.  The 2200 shines on the earlier, lightweight Kitfoxes, replacing 582,s, 503's, etc.   



C-85 or 0-200?  I'm not a big fan of aircraft engines on the Kitfox generally as I think they just make these little airplanes just too heavy.  But if I were to do one I would use either a pumped up, super light 0-235 or an IO-240, those are the only aircraft engine versions I've seen or heard of that provide good performance (and the V can handle either one).  An 0-200 (or a C-85) will probably provide anemic Kitfox STOL performance.  Performance is all about horsepower to weight, wing loading, and propellor thrust.   The smaller aircraft engines just don't provide enough power (or thrust) per pound.   



And speaking of propellor thrust, I think if we ever could test all the engines mentioned against eachother using props appropriate to our aircraft, you would see pound for pound the 912 Rotax would come out the winner.  It's not just the horsepower rating of an engine.  It's how efficiently you can convert that horsepower to prop thrust.  A longer, slower turning propellor is just more efficient, particularly on STOL aircraft.  



Fuel burn?  While those fuel burn numbers posted here were apparently from company stats, I can tell you the 912 numbers posted are far from accurate.  I've flown my 912ul IV amphib now for 2+ years and 300+ hours.  ON FLOATS I only burn 3.2 gph average, with speeds in the 95-100 mph range.  I have to run wide open (124 mph) to get my fuel burn over 5 gallons per hour.  Everyone can tell me I'm nuts, but it is a proven fact that a liquid cooled engine will burn less fuel than an air cooled engine.  The air cooled engine needs to use fuel to cool it (there's a reason Rutan used a liquid cooled engine to fly around the world without refueling).    



One last comment, if you were to reprop that C-140 so the climb was the same as it was, I'd be totally surprised if you didn't gain speed.  



Good luck with your engine decision!



Paul Seehafer

_________________
Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
Avid Flyer Sn#1 and Sn#26
Highlander 912s taildragger
Lake Amphibian
Central Wisconsin
paul676@tds.net

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: engine selection

Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Jan 12, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

>  Both Lynn and I are unconventional; we fly Jabiru and we write why 

> ... on a Macintosh! 

 Must have been those left-handed cigarettes from way back when...

 Lynn

 (back to football)

Hey Guys,,I too need some help.I have a KF2 empty wt 533 lb.OK and it 

has the 582 in it..I have been looking at different engines too.been 

looking at the Jab 2200..BUT now I found a 100 hp.,rotax.that is out of 

a KF. in texas.I can buy the engine with every thing.with it..for 

$4000.00..no papers or logs..But I wanted to over haul it befor I do any 

thing with it.The KF in Texas is wrecked fliped over at end of runway. 

So I am wanting to know about if the weight would Be too heavy for my 

KF2?  my empty 533lb-950=417 left.usefull load. What does every one 

think on this??  Steve Shinabery N554KF  KF2 with 582 for now

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: engine selection

shinco wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Lynn Matteson wrote:

> 

> On Jan 12, 2008, at 4:51 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

>>  Both Lynn and I are unconventional; we fly Jabiru and we write why 

>> ... on a Macintosh! 

> Must have been those left-handed cigarettes from way back when...

>

> Lynn

> (back to football)

 Hey Guys,,I too need some help.I have a KF2 empty wt 533 lb.OK and it 

 has the 582 in it..I have been looking at different engines too.been 

 looking at the Jab 2200..BUT now I found a 100 hp.,rotax.that is out 

 of a KF. in texas.I can buy the engine with every thing.with it..for 

 $4000.00..no papers or logs..But I wanted to over haul it befor I do 

 any thing with it.The KF in Texas is wrecked fliped over at end of 

 runway. So I am wanting to know about if the weight would Be too heavy 

 for my KF2?  my empty 533lb-950=417 left.usefull load. What does every 

 one think on this??  Steve Shinabery N554KF  KF2 with 582 for now

All so I only have 2,,,,6gal wing tanks,,,,,Steve Shinabery N554KF    
	


KF2  582 for now  Thanks again every one

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: engine selection

I don’t know whether to say thank you or not....  I expect that when I install my 912 I won’t  get as short a take off as I can with the 582.  I do however expect climb rate once airborne to increase.  Cruise speed?  Well the Kitfox, Mod III-A, a modified Mod II with the under cambered wing, isn’t designed to break any speed barriers.    

   

Noel  

   

   

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill

 Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 3:02 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: engine selection  

  

  

   

The O-200 is going to come in at least 100 Lbs more then the 912ULS.  The 2200 is a joke (I think) many reports out that says that the 2 stroke 582 out climbs the Jabiru 2200.  You cannot drive a Kitfox with that little chunk of wood out front.  Before  you get involved with hundreds and hundreds of hours building.  Do some research and fly with these different airplanes.  My take is can't get better then a 912ULS.  Ivoprop.

  

 When you have to put a 25 lb battery in the tail to balance and sweep wings.  Figure

  

 Locate the Kitfox Pilot's Guide.  Part #60000.100  Look at all the aircraft weights, specifications, add  50 lbs to all their empty weights, that works out about right.  Check with these pilots and fly with them.

  

  

  

 Clint

 

 > From: alexandj(at)preachain.org

 > To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 > Subject: Re: engine selection

 > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:43:42 -0800

 > 

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Alexander" <alexandj(at)preachain.org>

 > 

 > I'm putting a C-85 into my when I get it. The choice is driven by the fact 

 > that I have a C-85 on hand - newly overhauled with the O-200 STC (crank and 

 > pistons) installed.

 > 

 > I'll be putting a lighter starter and an alternator on it, so that will free 

 > up a few pounds.

 > 

 > I've been curious about the Jabiru engines though. They turn up quite a bit 

 > faster than the O-200 or C-85 necessitating a smaller prop. How does this 

 > affect efficiency/performance?

 > 

 > John Alexander

 > Currently at sea - SBX-1

 > 

 > On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 05:56:37 -0800 (PST), great bear wrote

 > > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: great bear <av8r2488(at)yahoo.com>

 > > 

 > > I have been following the talk on engine choices...just another 

 > > thought to add....I have a series 5 outback and will have to make an 

 > > engine choice soon because of wing sweep (or lack of) and would like 

 > > to know your thoughts on a Jabiru 2200 vs a 0-200 cont. Heres my 

 > > thinking....the jabiru weighs in at 138 and the 0-200 at 

 > > 187....ready to go...how much of an even trade is this...50 pounds 

 > > for 20 hp? Now I guess we can close the weight gap by going light 

 > > weight starter and alternator by about 12-15 pounds..I am still 

 > > researching that...I like the simplicity of a direct drive air-

 > > cooled engine..how much does the 912 series really weigh when you 

 > > factor the radiator, hoses, coolant,expansion tank...ect? Does it 

 > > fall somewhere in this weight range? I had a Cessna 140 for 22 years 

 > > and changed the 85 hp to an 0-200 and doubled the rate of climb but 

 > > only gained 2mph in cruise. Since excess hp power is merely the 

 > > ability to climb faster and cruise is a function of aerodynamics 

 > > will the weight savings be traded off for horse power? Also can the 

 > > wings be set at zero sweep and the battery moved to adjust the CG? 

 > > Just getting started in this as I just bought the Outback and got it 

 > > home a week ago....still looking it over and wondering what I have 

 > > gotten myself into here.....If there are any builders who would 

 > > rather respond off list feel free to contact me direct at 

 > > av8r2488(at)yahoo.com Thanks for your advice and help this is a great 

 > > forum.

 > > 

 > > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. 

 > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

 > > 

 > 

 > 

 > --

 > Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben Frank=======================

 &g==

 > 

 > 

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: engine selection

Michael:



Did you install a pressure cowl to direct cold air down through the cooling

fins?



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: engine selection

A dinner says your take off will be a lot shorter.  Clint

  

 My friend told me once, only fools and crooks bet.  Which one am I?

 [quote]  From: noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: engine selection

Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:12:00 -0330



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I don’t know whether to say thank you or not....  I expect that when I install my 912 I won’t  get as short a take off as I can with the 582.  I do however expect climb rate once airborne to increase.  Cruise speed?  Well the Kitfox, Mod III-A, a modified Mod II with the under cambered wing, isn’t designed to break any speed barriers.   

  

Noel 

  

  

    

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clint Bazzill

Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 3:02 PM

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Kitfox-List: engine selection



 

  

The O-200 is going to come in at least 100 Lbs more then the 912ULS.  The 2200 is a joke (I think) many reports out that says that the 2 stroke 582 out climbs the Jabiru 2200.  You cannot drive a Kitfox with that little chunk of wood out front.  Before  you get involved with hundreds and hundreds of hours building.  Do some research and fly with these different airplanes.  My take is can't get better then a 912ULS.  Ivoprop.

 

When you have to put a 25 lb battery in the tail to balance and sweep wings.  Figure

 

Locate the Kitfox Pilot's Guide.  Part #60000.100  Look at all the aircraft weights, specifications, add  50 lbs to all their empty weights, that works out about right.  Check with these pilots and fly with them.

 

 

 

Clint



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: alexandj(at)preachain.org

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: engine selection

 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:43:42 -0800

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "John Alexander" <alexandj(at)preachain.org>

 

 I'm putting a C-85 into my when I get it. The choice is driven by the fact 

 that I have a C-85 on hand - newly overhauled with the O-200 STC (crank and 

 pistons) installed.

 

 I'll be putting a lighter starter and an alternator on it, so that will free 

 up a few pounds.

 

 I've been curious about the Jabiru engines though. They turn up quite a bit 

 faster than the O-200 or C-85 necessitating a smaller prop. How does this 

 affect efficiency/performance?

 

 John Alexander

 Currently at sea - SBX-1

 

 On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 05:56:37 -0800 (PST), great bear wrote

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: great bear <av8r2488(at)yahoo.com>

 > 

 > I have been following the talk on engine choices..just another 

 > thought to add....I have a series 5 outback and will have to make an 

 > engine choice soon because of wing sweep (or lack of) and would like 

 > to know your thoughts on a Jabiru 2200 vs a 0-200 cont. Heres my 

 > thinking....the jabiru weighs in at 138 and the 0-200 at 

 > 187....ready to go...how much of an even trade is this...50 pounds 

 > for 20 hp? Now I guess we can close the weight gap by going light 

 > weight starter and alternator by about 12-15 pounds..I am still 

 > researching that...I like the simplicity of a direct drive air-

 > cooled engine.how much does the 912 series really weigh when you 

 > factor the radiator, hoses, coolant,expansion tank...ect? Does it 

 > fall somewhere in this weight range? I had a Cessna 140 for 22 years 

 > and changed the 85 hp to an 0-200 and doubled the rate of climb but 

 > only gained 2mph in cruise. Since excess hp power is merely the 

 > ability to climb faster and cruise is a function of aerodynamics 

 > will the weight savings be traded off for horse power? Also can the 

 > wings be set at zero sweep and the battery moved to adjust the CG? 

 > Just getting started in this as I just bought the Outback and got it 

 > home a week ago....still looking it over and wondering what I have 

 > gotten myself into here.....If there are any builders who would 

 > rather respond off list feel free to contact me direct at 

 > av8r2488(at)yahoo.com Thanks for your advice and help this is a great 

 > forum.

 > 

 > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. 

 > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

 > 

 

 

 --

 Beer is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy. - Ben Frank=======================

&g==
	


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av8rps

Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 33
Location: Central Wisconsin

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: engine selection

(Steve Shinabery wrote; been looking at the Jab 2200..BUT now I found a 100 hp.,rotax that is out of a KF in texas. I can buy the engine with every thing with it..for $4000.00..)



Steve,



Don't waste any time making up your mind on that one.  That will not be easy to find again...



I believe the first Kitfox to have a 912 was a model 2.  So I can't see any reason yours wouldn't accept the engine.  Only thing I have to tell you is, you had better HANG ON the first time you crack that throttle!  A 100 hp 912 on a model 2 is going to be a real rocketship!!!  If you work at it, you could end up with a 575 lb airplane.  That'll give you a 5.75 lbs per hp power loading (e.w.).  That's almost 30% better than a new kitfox with a 914.  So as I said, you'll have a real rocketship!  Oh yeah, having the undercambered, high lift wing, you should have one awesome short field, climbing monster as well!  But you will have to learn to keep a close eye on your VNE and maneuvering speeds, as you'll most likely blow by them so quickly it will scare you...



But oh, what great fun all that sounds like!!!!!



Paul Seehafer

_________________
Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib
Avid Flyer Sn#1 and Sn#26
Highlander 912s taildragger
Lake Amphibian
Central Wisconsin
paul676@tds.net

avidfox

Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 87

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: engine selection

Hey guys,

   Take a breather.... check this out. http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=925e6690-ed1f-43e0-b4f7-1abc3d534a6a &

  

 Seems to depend on specific gearbox SN's installed on 912's and 914's.

  

 Steve Benesh

 84KF.

  

 Ok...Carry on.

  [quote][b]

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: engine selection

If you don't buy it let me know.  I will

  

 Clint

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: engine selection

 From: paul676(at)tds.net

 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 17:42:39 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "av8rps" <paul676(at)tds.net>

 

 (Steve Shinabery wrote; been looking at the Jab 2200..BUT now I found a 100 hp.,rotax that is out of a KF in texas. I can buy the engine with every thing with it..for $4000.00..)

 

 Steve,

 

 Don't waste any time making up your mind on that one. That will not be easy to find again...

 

 I believe the first Kitfox to have a 912 was a model 2. So I can't see any reason yours wouldn't accept the engine. Only thing I have to tell you is, you had better HANG ON the first time you crack that throttle! A 100 hp 912 on a model 2 is going to be a real rocketship!!! If you work at it, you could end up with a 575 lb airplane. That'll give you a 5.75 lbs per hp power loading (e.w.). That's almost 30% better than a new kitfox with a 914. So as I said, you'll have a real rocketship! Oh yeah, having the undercambered, high lift wing, you should have one awesome short field, climbing monster as well! But you will have to learn to keep a close eye on your VNE and maneuvering speeds, as you'll most likely blow by them so quickly it will scare you...

 

 But oh, what great fun all that sounds like!!!!!

 

 Paul Seehafer

 

 --------

 Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib

 Avid Flyer

 Lake Amphibian

 Central Wisconsin

 paul676(at)tds.net

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157733#157733

 

 

 

 

======================
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   ========================> 

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

Sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: engine selection

When I learned on my  912 motor, my  instructor made me use half throttle on the ground, then three quarter after  stable and on the centerline. Only once airborne would I get to crack the  throttle... Just be ready to use a LOT of right rudder on climb out.  Steve  Bennett   Durham NC.  4-912ul



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

shinco(at)bright.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: engine selection

av8rps wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 (Steve Shinabery wrote; been looking at the Jab 2200..BUT now I found a 100 hp.,rotax that is out of a KF in texas. I can buy the engine with every thing with it..for $4000.00..)



 Steve,



 Don't waste any time making up your mind on that one.  That will not be easy to find again...



 I believe the first Kitfox to have a 912 was a model 2.  So I can't see any reason yours wouldn't accept the engine.  Only thing I have to tell you is, you had better HANG ON the first time you crack that throttle!  A 100 hp 912 on a model 2 is going to be a real rocketship!!!  If you work at it, you could end up with a 575 lb airplane.  That'll give you a 5.75 lbs per hp power loading (e.w.).  That's almost 30% better than a new kitfox with a 914.  So as I said, you'll have a real rocketship!  Oh yeah, having the undercambered, high lift wing, you should have one awesome short field, climbing monster as well!  But you will have to learn to keep a close eye on your VNE and maneuvering speeds, as you'll most likely blow by them so quickly it will scare you...



 But oh, what great fun all that sounds like!!!!!



 Paul Seehafer



 --------

 Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib

 Avid Flyer

 Lake Amphibian

 Central Wisconsin

 paul676(at)tds.net





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157733#157733





   

Thanks Paul.That will help me decide.I do not know what model the KF 
	


is..or the model of the rotax 912.I do not know of TT on engine,no paper 

work on it..But will have logs on AF..so I still think to over haul 

engine .and start out with 0 time.and new engine log book..what do U 

think.plane is in Texas and I am in Ohio.Thanks again Steve Shinabery 

N554KF KF 2..and the little 582 4 now

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: engine selection

Be cautious of any engine that flipped, Steve. It might have suffered  

a prop strike, and might have a bent crank...a couple of MIGHT's here  

is all.



Lynn Matteson

Grass Lake, Michigan

Kitfox IV Speedster  w/Jabiru 2200

flying w/460+ hrs

do not archive

On Jan 12, 2008, at 8:42 PM, av8rps wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 (Steve Shinabery wrote; been looking at the Jab 2200..BUT now I  

 found a 100 hp.,rotax that is out of a KF in texas. I can buy the  

 engine with every thing with it..for $4000.00..)



 Steve,



 Don't waste any time making up your mind on that one.  That will  

 not be easy to find again...



 I believe the first Kitfox to have a 912 was a model 2.  So I can't  

 see any reason yours wouldn't accept the engine.  Only thing I have  

 to tell you is, you had better HANG ON the first time you crack  

 that throttle!  A 100 hp 912 on a model 2 is going to be a real  

 rocketship!!!  If you work at it, you could end up with a 575 lb  

 airplane.  That'll give you a 5.75 lbs per hp power loading  

 (e.w.).  That's almost 30% better than a new kitfox with a 914.  So  

 as I said, you'll have a real rocketship!  Oh yeah, having the  

 undercambered, high lift wing, you should have one awesome short  

 field, climbing monster as well!  But you will have to learn to  

 keep a close eye on your VNE and maneuvering speeds, as you'll most  

 likely blow by them so quickly it will scare you...



 But oh, what great fun all that sounds like!!!!!



 Paul Seehafer



 --------

 Model IV-1200 912ul Amphib

 Avid Flyer

 Lake Amphibian

 Central Wisconsin

 paul676(at)tds.net





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157733#157733

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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