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Rudder trim

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Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: Rudder trim

Here's one for discussion.  I've been reading about whether to add rudder trim or not, static or electric, needing a bit of right rudder pressure at cruise speed, etc.  Keep in mind, I'm not a pilot.



The same guy that builds and flies -6's that told me about cracks in the windshield bond to the aluminum pulling G's, also told me that another builder corrected for rudder trim by moving the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer 3/32 to the left on his -6.  He says it has resulted in perfect rudder trim.



Being new to this and a non-pilot, I'm not even considering doing this -- and if I were, I would consult with Van's -- but this is certainly more fun!



Thoughts?



Later, - Lew

_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: Rudder trim

Van's did this on the RV-9 when they designed it, but I wouldn't touch it on the RV-10.  If they wanted it that way on the 10, they would have done it.  I myself opted for electric rudder trim and I love it.



Thank You

Ray Doerr

--

rngurley(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Rudder trim

Ray -



Did you rebalance the rudder after you installed the electric rudder trim.  If so - what did you do.  I am right at that point right now - am istalling electric rudder trim.



Thank you.



Dick



--

rv(at)thelefflers.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: Rudder trim

Lew,



Just think about it for a moment.  You have high torque situations like take-offs tht require more rudder, then cruise where you don't have the same requirement.



What ever fixed solution you implement, it can only address take off or cruise but not both.  



If you want trim in both conditions, then you'll want the electric trim mod.



bob



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 From: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net>

 Date: 2008/01/18 Fri AM 08:01:04 EST

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Rudder trim

 

 

 

> The same guy that builds and flies -6's that told me about cracks in the windshield bond to the aluminum pulling G's, also told me that another builder corrected for rudder trim by moving the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer 3/32 to the left on his -6.  He says it has resulted in perfect rudder trim.

 

 Being new to this and a non-pilot, I'm not even considering doing this -- and if I were, I would consult with Van's -- but this is certainly more fun!

 

 Thoughts?

 

 Later, - Lew

 

 --------

 non-pilot

 crazy about building

 waiting on RV-10 finishing kit

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=158991#158991

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: Rudder trim

Having flown behind fixed trim for over 250 hours, and then

switching to electric, I kind of think I may have a bit of

a good opinion...

It was very hard not to be relatively happy with fixed

trim.  You take off, hold some rudder, and then really

can ignore it altogether for the most part on landing.

What wasn't so fun was having to hold a little pressure

on the pedal in cruise, if you wanted it centered.

Your Autopilot will hold the plane level, if you have

the ball centered.  If you don't have the ball in the

middle though, many minor things aren't perfect.  So,

you hold your foot there.  Not much, mind you, but

constantly.  For many flights, no big deal.  The RV-10

though, is a X/C plane.  Building one for local flights

only would be kind of nuts, IMHO.  So after a few hours

of holding your foot there, it starts to really not be

comfortable.  You cross your legs, and switch feet, hoping

that you don't have a sudden upset requiring rudder. But,

it just isn't as comfortable.

So then you switch to electric.  Well, in climb, you're

climbing so quickly that trim isn't really a big deal.

Still not really needed much on landing, either.  But, in

cruise you can FINALLY set that ball perfectly centered.

Then stretch BOTH your legs, and get comfortable.  It's

a very minor little upgrade, with some really sweet comfort

effects.

Sure, if someone was going to go bare-bones, totally budget

RV-10, skip the rudder trim.  But, I'd at least pull the

wires if you can, because you'll probably end up wanting it

after you do some long x/c flights.  A bend-able or

fixed trim tab certainly can be made to be just about right

in cruise, but the problem is, cruise changes.  There are

times I cruised at 170+ kts, and times when I cruised at

150-155kts.  Both require different rudder inputs.  Different

loadings give different cruise speeds...same with different

engine ops (LOP / ROP).  So sure, it's possible to get by with

fixed trim.  But, while you can get it much better, you will

still not have it perfect on every cruise flight.  For me,

it was never as comfortable just flying along x/c leaving

the ball out, because my AP would then drop a wing a little

to compensate.

Certainly not a MUST have, but very very nice.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

rv(at)thelefflers.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Lew,

 Just think about it for a moment.  You have high torque situations like take-offs tht require more rudder, then cruise where you don't have the same requirement.

 What ever fixed solution you implement, it can only address take off or cruise but not both.  

 If you want trim in both conditions, then you'll want the electric trim mod.

 bob

> From: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net>

> Date: 2008/01/18 Fri AM 08:01:04 EST

> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

> Subject: Rudder trim

>

> 

>

>> The same guy that builds and flies -6's that told me about cracks in the windshield bond to the aluminum pulling G's, also told me that another builder corrected for rudder trim by moving the leading edge of the vertical stabilizer 3/32 to the left on his -6.  He says it has resulted in perfect rudder trim.

> Being new to this and a non-pilot, I'm not even considering doing this -- and if I were, I would consult with Van's -- but this is certainly more fun!

>

> Thoughts?

>

> Later, - Lew

>

> --------

> non-pilot

> crazy about building

> waiting on RV-10 finishing kit

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=158991#158991

>

>

wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: Rudder trim

Well hopefully when taking off you have your feet on the rudder pedals and so should not require rudder trim.  The whole point of a rudder trim is to keep the ball centered while your feet are NOT on the pedals.  Even for an extended climb you could probably tolerate keeping your feet on the pedals for the duration of the climb.  Now in cruise you would want to relax and not have to keep your feet on the rudder pedals to keep the ball centered and here is where a trim tab should perform most of its duty.  Bottom line, a properly sized fixed trim tab will probably accomplish 90% of what a movable trim tab would for all but those with the most lazy of feet.  A movable trim tab will give you that last 10%.



William

http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

-- Dr. Suess 



------

Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: Rudder trim

No, I haven't because right now I am still unpainted.



Thank You

Ray Doerr

CDNI Principal Engineer

Sprint PCS

16020 West 113th Street

Lenexa, KS 66219

Mailstop KSLNXK0101

(913) 859-1414 (Office)

(913) 226-0106 (Pcs)

(913) 859-1234 (Fax)

Ray.R.Doerr(at)sprint.com

--

mritter509(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: Rudder trim

William,

  

 I put a rudder trim tab on my RV-10 and it works just as you described.  After playing around with the length and location of the tab (purchased from A/C Spruce) the ball is centered in cruise (65-70% of power).   I don't see a need for a movable trim tab.

  

 Mark

 RV-10/N410MR

 185 Hours

  

 </div></html>

   

 > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 12:59:36 -0600

[quote] Subject: Re: Rudder trim

 From: wcurtis(at)nerv10.com

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> RV10-List message posted by: "William Curtis" <wcurtis(at)nerv10.com>

 

 Well hopefully when taking off you have your feet on the rudder pedals and so should not require rudder trim. The whole point of a rudder trim is to keep the ball centered while your feet are NOT on the pedals. Even for an extended climb you could probably tolerate keeping your feet on the pedals for the duration of the climb. Now in cruise you would want to relax and not have to keep your feet on the rudder pedals to keep the ball centered and here is where a trim tab should perform most of its duty. Bottom line, a properly sized fixed trim tab will probably accomplish 90% of what a movable trim tab would for all but those with the most lazy of feet. A movable trim tab will give you that last 10%.

 

 William

 http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/

 "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

 -- Dr. Suess 

 

 ------

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:51 am Post subject: Rudder trim

That's exactly my experience in the Maule and  the few other planes I've 

flown.

Now,  if I can just figure out how to put an adjustable spring in the 

system rather than cutting another tab out of a control surface.  That's 

what the Maule has, or I should say that is half of what the Maule has.  

It has a spring driven rudder trim system and a rudder tab (Jeeez!). But 

the rudder tab is linked to the ailerons for coordination assist.

Com'on William, beat me too it.

Bill "just building away" Watson

Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Having flown behind fixed trim for over 250 hours, and then

 switching to electric, I kind of think I may have a bit of

 a good opinion...

 It was very hard not to be relatively happy with fixed

 trim.  You take off, hold some rudder, and then really

 can ignore it altogether for the most part on landing.

 What wasn't so fun was having to hold a little pressure

 on the pedal in cruise, if you wanted it centered.

 Your Autopilot will hold the plane level, if you have

 the ball centered.  If you don't have the ball in the

 middle though, many minor things aren't perfect.  So,

 you hold your foot there.  Not much, mind you, but

 constantly.  For many flights, no big deal.  The RV-10

 though, is a X/C plane.  Building one for local flights

 only would be kind of nuts, IMHO.  So after a few hours

 of holding your foot there, it starts to really not be

 comfortable.  You cross your legs, and switch feet, hoping

 that you don't have a sudden upset requiring rudder. But,

 it just isn't as comfortable.

 So then you switch to electric.  Well, in climb, you're

 climbing so quickly that trim isn't really a big deal.

 Still not really needed much on landing, either.  But, in

 cruise you can FINALLY set that ball perfectly centered.

 Then stretch BOTH your legs, and get comfortable.  It's

 a very minor little upgrade, with some really sweet comfort

 effects.

 Sure, if someone was going to go bare-bones, totally budget

 RV-10, skip the rudder trim.  But, I'd at least pull the

 wires if you can, because you'll probably end up wanting it

 after you do some long x/c flights.  A bend-able or

 fixed trim tab certainly can be made to be just about right

 in cruise, but the problem is, cruise changes.  There are

 times I cruised at 170+ kts, and times when I cruised at

 150-155kts.  Both require different rudder inputs.  Different

 loadings give different cruise speeds...same with different

 engine ops (LOP / ROP).  So sure, it's possible to get by with

 fixed trim.  But, while you can get it much better, you will

 still not have it perfect on every cruise flight.  For me,

 it was never as comfortable just flying along x/c leaving

 the ball out, because my AP would then drop a wing a little

 to compensate.

 Certainly not a MUST have, but very very nice.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 rv(at)thelefflers.com wrote:

> 

>

> Lew,

>

> Just think about it for a moment.  You have high torque situations 

> like take-offs tht require more rudder, then cruise where you don't 

> have the same requirement.

>

> What ever fixed solution you implement, it can only address take off 

> or cruise but not both. 

> If you want trim in both conditions, then you'll want the electric 

> trim mod.

>

> bob

>

>> From: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net>

>> Date: 2008/01/18 Fri AM 08:01:04 EST

>> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

>> Subject: Rudder trim

>>

>> 

>>

>>> The same guy that builds and flies -6's that told me about cracks 

>>> in the windshield bond to the aluminum pulling G's, also told me 

>>> that another builder corrected for rudder trim by moving the 

>>> leading edge of the vertical stabilizer 3/32 to the left on his 

>>> -6.  He says it has resulted in perfect rudder trim.

>> Being new to this and a non-pilot, I'm not even considering doing 

>> this -- and if I were, I would consult with Van's -- but this is 

>> certainly more fun!

>>

>> Thoughts?

>>

>> Later, - Lew

>>

>> --------

>> non-pilot

>> crazy about building

>> waiting on RV-10 finishing kit

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=158991#158991

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

mike(at)learningplanet.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: Rudder trim

I have the same issue in my -9A as you describe. My right calf muscle  

definitely gets tired on a long X/C flight.

Everything was great in cruise until I added the fairings and wheel  

pants. They absolutely changed the trim situation. So if you do your  

flight testing without fairings and then add them, be prepared to  

adjust the trim. This is another place where electric trim might be  

helpful, but I agree that manual trim will be adequate once you tweak  

it for cruise.

Regards,

Mike Schipper

#40576 - Fuse - www.rvten.com

On Jan 18, 2008, at 12:43 PM, Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Having flown behind fixed trim for over 250 hours, and then

 switching to electric, I kind of think I may have a bit of

 a good opinion...

 It was very hard not to be relatively happy with fixed

 trim.  You take off, hold some rudder, and then really

 can ignore it altogether for the most part on landing.

 What wasn't so fun was having to hold a little pressure

 on the pedal in cruise, if you wanted it centered.

 Your Autopilot will hold the plane level, if you have

 the ball centered.  If you don't have the ball in the

 middle though, many minor things aren't perfect.  So,

 you hold your foot there.  Not much, mind you, but

 constantly.  For many flights, no big deal.  The RV-10

 though, is a X/C plane.  Building one for local flights

 only would be kind of nuts, IMHO.  So after a few hours

 of holding your foot there, it starts to really not be

 comfortable.  You cross your legs, and switch feet, hoping

 that you don't have a sudden upset requiring rudder. But,

 it just isn't as comfortable.

 So then you switch to electric.  Well, in climb, you're

 climbing so quickly that trim isn't really a big deal.

 Still not really needed much on landing, either.  But, in

 cruise you can FINALLY set that ball perfectly centered.

 Then stretch BOTH your legs, and get comfortable.  It's

 a very minor little upgrade, with some really sweet comfort

 effects.

 Sure, if someone was going to go bare-bones, totally budget

 RV-10, skip the rudder trim.  But, I'd at least pull the

 wires if you can, because you'll probably end up wanting it

 after you do some long x/c flights.  A bend-able or

 fixed trim tab certainly can be made to be just about right

 in cruise, but the problem is, cruise changes.  There are

 times I cruised at 170+ kts, and times when I cruised at

 150-155kts.  Both require different rudder inputs.  Different

 loadings give different cruise speeds...same with different

 engine ops (LOP / ROP).  So sure, it's possible to get by with

 fixed trim.  But, while you can get it much better, you will

 still not have it perfect on every cruise flight.  For me,

 it was never as comfortable just flying along x/c leaving

 the ball out, because my AP would then drop a wing a little

 to compensate.

 Certainly not a MUST have, but very very nice.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 rv(at)thelefflers.com wrote:

> 

> Lew,

> Just think about it for a moment.  You have high torque situations  

> like take-offs tht require more rudder, then cruise where you don't  

> have the same requirement.

> What ever fixed solution you implement, it can only address take  

> off or cruise but not both.  If you want trim in both conditions,  

> then you'll want the electric trim mod.

> bob

>> From: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net>

>> Date: 2008/01/18 Fri AM 08:01:04 EST

>> To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

>> Subject: Rudder trim

>>

>> 

>> >

>>

>>> The same guy that builds and flies -6's that told me about cracks  

>>> in the windshield bond to the aluminum pulling G's, also told me  

>>> that another builder corrected for rudder trim by moving the  

>>> leading edge of the vertical stabilizer 3/32 to the left on his  

>>> -6.  He says it has resulted in perfect rudder trim.

>> Being new to this and a non-pilot, I'm not even considering doing  

>> this -- and if I were, I would consult with Van's -- but this is  

>> certainly more fun!

>>

>> Thoughts?

>>

>> Later, - Lew

>>

>> --------

>> non-pilot

>> crazy about building

>> waiting on RV-10 finishing kit

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Read this topic online here:

>>

>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=158991#158991

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

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