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KingCJ6(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: Formation

 	  Quote: 	
		  From a fellow CAF aviator:

 
	


  An incredible story rarely told.  Everyone who flies  formation will put 

these heroes on even a higher pedestal than  before!!!!!!



Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:00 PM

Subject: Fw: 8th Air Force



The planning effort and the number of A/C  involved has to be beyond the 

comprehension of any aviator who wasn't actually  there. Coordinating 1200 

(4-engined) bombers and 600-800 fighters in  "radio silence" sounds impossible.

 

 

Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 6:20 AM

Subject: Fw: 8th Air Force





"THE MIGHTY EIGHTH"



Of all the stories that have been written,  and  movies that have been shown, 

about the 8th Air  Force, very little  attention has been given to what was 

involved in assembling 1200 B-17's and  B-24's  each day, to get them in 

formation to carry out a  strike  against Germany.  Certainly showing bombers under 

attack by fighters, or  encountering heavy flak, was a reality, and are 

interesting to watch.   Also, stories about some of the rougher missions  make 

interesting  reading.  But what was going on over England, each morning, could  get 

just as scary  to the crews as the time spent over some of the   targets.  

The planning, and coordination, that had to be  accomplished during the night, 

by the operations planners of each Group, so  that the crews  could be briefed, 

was unbelievable.  If the  planners  had failed to do their jobs properly, 

there would  have  been a free for all among Bomb Groups, in the  skies over 

England. The  rendezvous points, altitude,  and times had to be precise, and 

known by  all of the  crews, before the Eighth Air Force could get in   formation. 

The success of the planners, in  accomplishing their mission,  enabled the 

Eighth Air  Force to become the most powerful air armada  ever  assembled.  In 

my view, how this was accomplished is  one  of the major untold stories of the 

war.



I was a pilot in the 95th Bomb  Group, in  late 1944 and early 1945, and what 

follows is a  typical  mission, as I remember it, from a crew  member's  

perspective.



Early in the evening, our Squadron  Operations would  post the names of the 

crews that  were scheduled to fly the following  day.  There were   two ways we 

could be notified if the Group had  been  alerted to fly. One was by means of 

lights on the  front of  the orderly room, and the other with   raising of 

colored flags.  If  a green light was on,  the Group was alerted, if a red light 

was on  we  would fly, and if a white light was on, the Group   would stand  

down.  The light was monitored  frequently throughout the evening to  learn our

status and, normally, we would know before going to bed if we  would be 

flying the next day.



On the morning of a mission, the CQ   (charge of quarters) would awaken the 

crews about  four or five o'clock,  depending on takeoff time.  The questions 

we always asked were, "What is  the  fuel load?" and, "What is the bomb load?"  

If his  answer  was,  " full Tokyo tanks,"  we knew we would be going deep   

into Germany.   Shortly after being awakened, "6-by"  trucks would  start 

shuttling us to the mess hall. We always had all the fresh eggs we could  eat, 

when  flying a mission.   After breakfast, the trucks carried  us to the briefing 

room.  All of the crew  members attended the main  briefing, and then the  

Navigators, Bombardiers and Radio operators went  to  a specialized briefing.  

At the main briefing, in  addition  to the target information--anti-aircraft 

guns, fighter escort and route in--we  received a  sheet showing our location in 

the formation, the  call  signs for the day and all the information we   

would need to assemble our  Group and get into the  bomber stream.



After briefing, we got into  our flight  gear, drew our parachutes and loaded 

onto the trucks   for a ride to our plane.  We were now guided by the time on 

our daily  briefing sheet.  We started  engines at a given time and watched 

for  the airplane  we would be flying in formation with to taxi past, then we  

would taxi behind him.  We were following strict radio silence.



We  were now parked, nose to tail around  the perimeter, on both sides of the 

 active runway,  and extremely vulnerable to a fighter strafing    attack. At 

the designated takeoff time, a green  flare would be fired and  takeoff would 

begin.  Every  thirty seconds an airplane started  takeoff roll.  We   were 

lined up on the perimeter so that the  12  airplanes of the high squadron would 

take off first,  followed  by the lead and then the low squadron.



Each Group had a pattern for the  airplanes  to fly during climb to assembly 

altitude. Some would  fly  a triangle, some a rectangle and our Group flew  a 

circle, using a  "Buncher" (a low frequency radio  station) which was located 

on our  station.  The patterns for each Group fit together like a jig saw   

puzzle.   Unfortunately, strong winds aloft would  destroy the  integrity of the 

patterns, and there would be considerable over running of  each other's  

patterns.



Many of our takeoffs were made  before  daylight, during the winter of '44 

and '45, when I  was  there, so it was not uncommon to climb through   several 

thousand feet of  cloud overcast.  Also it  was not uncommon to experience one 

or two  near  misses while climbing through the clouds, although  you would  

never see the other airplane.  You knew  you had just had a near  miss, when 

suddenly the  airplane would shake violently as it hit the  prop  wash of 

another plane. It was a wonderful feeling  to break  out on top, so you could watch 

for other planes, to keep from running into  each other.  To  add to the 

congestion we were creating, the  Royal  Air Force Lancasters, Halifaxes, and 

Wimpys would be returning  from their night missions, and flying  through our 

formations. Needless  to say, pilots had  to keep their heads on a swivel and their 

eyes out of  the cockpit.



After take off, the squadron lead would  fire a flare  every 30 seconds, so 

that we could keep  him located and enable us to get  into formation quicker.  

The color of our Group flare was   red-green.  The first thing you would see, 

when  breaking out of the  clouds, was a sky filled with pyrotechnics, so you 

had to search the sky for  the  Group flare, which would identify the lead 

airplane  of your  Squadron.  Once you had it located, you could adjust your 

pattern to  climb more quickly into  formation with him.  As each airplane  pulled 

into  formation, they would also fire a flare, with the lead  plane, making 

it much easier for the following  aircraft to keep him in  sight.  I think most 

crew members would probably agree that the  pyrotechnic show, in the skies 

over England, in the morning when  the  Eighth was assembling, was a rare sight 

to behold.



The order of progression for assembling  the Eighth Air Force  was to first  

assemble the  Flight elements, the Squadrons, the  Groups, the Combat wings, 

the Divisions and, finally, the Air   Force.



As soon as the four Squadron elements were  formed, the  high, low and second 

elements would take  up their positions on the lead  element, to form a 

Squadron.  When the three Squadrons had  completed  assembly, it was necessary to 

get into Group formation. This  was accomplished by having the three  Squadrons 

arrive over a  pre-selected fix at a  precise time and heading.  The high and 

low  Squadrons were separated from the lead Squadron by  1000 feet and,  

after getting into Group formation,  they would maintain their positions  by 

following the   lead Squadron.



Then it was necessary to get  into the  Combat Wing formation.  We were in 

the 13th Combat   Wing, which consisted of three Bomb Groups:   the  95th, the 

100th  and the  390th .  Whichever Group  was leading the Wing that  day, would 

arrive over a  pre-selected point, at a precise time and  heading.   Thirty 

seconds later, the second Group would pass  that  fix, followed by the third 

Group, thirty  seconds later. We were then in  Combat Wing  formation. The 

navigators in the lead airplanes had  a  tremendous responsibility, to ensure that 

the  rendezvous times were  strictly adhered to.



There were three Divisions in the Eighth,   the 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The 1st and 

3rd Divisions  consisted of B-17s only,  and the 2nd Division was  B-24s. The 

B-24s were faster than the B-17s,  but  the B-17s could fly higher, 

therefore, the two were  not  compatible in formation.  As a result the 1st  and 3rd 

Divisions  would fly together and the 2nd  Division would fly separately

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: Formation

On Jan 14, 2008, at 8:05 AM, KingCJ6(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From a fellow CAF aviator:



 An incredible story rarely told.  Everyone who flies formation will  

 put these heroes on even a higher pedestal than before!!!!!!


	


As I recall, the Eighth Air Force also suffered the highest casualty  

rate of any allied unit in WW-II. So, yes, my hat is off to them but I  

sure as hell would not want to have been one of them.



In my case, this produces a bit of 'what-if' thinking. I surmise that  

I might just be here because the Army Air Corps wouldn't take my  

father. Seems that he couldn't produce a birth certificate so the Army  

recruiter turned him away. The  chief in the Navy recruiter's office  

manipulated the system so that his lack of a birth certificate  

wouldn't be discovered until after he was well along in training, at  

which point it wouldn't matter. As a result he ended up flying SBDs,  

SB2Cs, and F6Fs off of carriers in the Pacific, a much safer and more  

pleasant passtime than flying B17s over Germany.



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: Formation

Great read. Had seen the article on the 8th earlier.

Brian,

You have not seen the "Ramp Monster" eat an airplane have you. Thanks, I'll take my 8 to 10 k foot runways that neither pitch/down or try to runaway from you in the pitch ass dark!

Doc



--

MarkWDavis

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, KS

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:11 pm Post subject: Formation

Doc,

     You're missing out on all the fun!  Besides the ramp monster doesn't 

bite those who listen to the ramp guardians ( aka LSO's). : )



Mark Davis

N44YK

(former LSO)



---

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: Formation

On Jan 14, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Roger Kemp wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Great read. Had seen the article on the 8th earlier.

 Brian,

 You have not seen the "Ramp Monster" eat an airplane have you.  

 Thanks, I'll take my 8 to 10 k foot runways that neither pitch/down  

 or try to runaway from you in the pitch ass dark!


	


Well, my comment was specific to the 8th AF in WW-II vs. the flying  

from a carrier in WW-II. Neither was a good way to ensure longevity.  

Neither the USAF nor the USN would today accept the loss rates that  

were deemed normal back then, even in wartime.



But you have made a really good point Doc. I guess you just have to be  

a way superior pilot to be able to fly onto a pitch-dark moving  

postage stamp in the middle of the ocean.



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:27 pm Post subject: Formation

On Jan 14, 2008, at 1:10 PM, Mark Davis wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Doc,

    You're missing out on all the fun!  Besides the ramp monster  

 doesn't bite those who listen to the ramp guardians ( aka LSO's). : )


	


Can you imagine night-ops to a small axial-deck carrier without a  

fresnel lens (ball) with the LSO giving commands with the paddles? The  

way they flew off the boat back then just amazes the s--- out of me.



Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brianl AT lloyd DOT com             Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

MarkWDavis

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, KS

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:30 pm Post subject: Formation

The LSO's wore lighted suits including their legs.  The closest we had 

in my day was Station 3 MOVLAS where the manually operated landing aid was 

on the right side of the landing area.  Tended to make people drift right in 

close to at the ramp.  Lots of last minute "come left" calls.  Never had to 

fly or wave one at night.  True practice bleeding.   I'll always have 

reverence for the Crusader and Whale guys that flew nights off of 27 Charlie 

class carriers.  My 113 night traps on Carl Vinson and Kitty Hawk were cake 

compared to that.

     As for axial deck night ops, as I understand it not everyone flew at 

night.  There were specific night fighter squadrons.  Don't know whether it 

was the better sticks or the FNG's that didn't know any better!



Mark Davis

N44K



---

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Formation

In a message dated 1/14/2008 7:32:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  mark(at)pld.com writes:

 According to some "expert" that hang around the bombers when we're out, the  8th Air Force had the 3rd highest causality rate of any service, in any military  during WW2.  First was the German submarine service and second was the US  Navy submarine service.  That was causality rate, not total numbers.   In one raid over Germany the 8th lost 60 aircraft, that is 600 men in about a 7  to 8 hour time frame.  Not all those were KIA of course and I don't know  what percentage of the total number that would have been.

 The loss rate for the 8th was 8%.  On some missions it was as high as  12.3%.  With a lost rate of 2% theoretically a crew had a 50/50  chance.  At 4% no one would go the whole 25 missions. When we're meet vets  who flew the same aircraft in Pacific, you hear they flew 80 - 90 - sometimes  over 100 missions.  When I meet some of the old vets from the 8th and I  hear they did 25-30 or 35 missions, I try to rub up against them, hoping some of  their luck will rub off.

 BTW An excellent little history book on WW2, is Clash of Wings (World War  II In The Air) by Walter J. Boyne (Simon&Schuster).  It has a lot  of neat little info like the name of the first ship ever sunk by a guided  missile.  The Italian battleship Roma was sunk by a German bombardier Lt.  Heinrich who guided a Fritz-X missile dropped from Dornier DO 217. (page  204-205).

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Davis" <mark(at)pld.com>

       The LSO's wore lighted suits including their legs.  The closest we    had 

in my day was Station 3 MOVLAS where the manually operated landing aid    was 

on the right side of the landing area.  Tended to make people    drift right in 

close to at the ramp.  Lots of last minute "come left"    calls.  Never had to 

fly or wave one at night.  True practice    bleeding.   I'll always have 

reverence for the Crusader and    Whale guys that flew nights off of 27 Charlie 

class carriers.  My 113    night traps on Carl Vinson and Kitty Hawk were cake 

compared to    that.

     As for axial deck night ops, as I understand it    not everyone flew at 

night.  There were specific night fighter    squadrons.  Don't know whether it 

was the better sticks or the FNG's    that didn't know any better!

Mark Davis

N44K

----- Original    Message ----- 

From: "Brian Lloyd" <brian-1927(at)lloyd.com>

To:    <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 4:27    PM

Subject: Re: Formation

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Yak-List message    posted by: Brian Lloyd <brian-1927(at)lloyd.com>

 On    Jan 14, 2008, at 1:10 PM, Mark Davis wrote:

> -->    Yak-List message posted by: "Mark Davis"    <mark(at)pld.com>

>

> Doc,

>       You're missing out on all the fun!  Besides the ramp monster     doesn't 

> bite those who listen to the ramp guardians ( aka LSO's).    : )

 Can you imagine night-ops to a small axial-deck carrier    without a  fresnel 

 lens (ball) with the LSO giving commands with    the paddles? The  way they 

 flew off the boat back then just    amazes the s--- out of me.

 Brian Lloyd                            3191    Western Drive

 brianl AT lloyd DOT com                Cameron Park, CA 95682

 +1.916.367.2131    (voice)             +1.270.912.0788    (fax)

 PGP key ID:             12095C52A32A1B6C

 PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0     CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:40 pm Post subject: Formation

On Jan 14, 2008, at 5:19 PM, cjpilot710(at)aol.com wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   In a message dated 1/14/2008 7:32:08 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mark(at)pld.com 

  writes:

 According to some "expert" that hang around the bombers when we're  

 out, the 8th Air Force had the 3rd highest causality rate of any  

 service, in any military during WW2.  First was the German submarine  

 service


	


I did specifically say "allied military" as I was aware that being on  

a German submarine was a death sentence.



 	  Quote: 	
		   and second was the US Navy submarine service.


	


Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that they were  

surpassed, not surprisingly, by the Japanese Kamikaze Corps, not the  

US Navy's Submarine Service. Therefore, my comment about the 8th Air  

Force having the highest casualty rate of any allied military service  

in WW-II is probably correct.



 	  Quote: 	
		   That was causality rate, not total numbers.


	


Right. I was thinking specifically of one's chances of surviving the  

war if one was in that service.



 	  Quote: 	
		   In one raid over Germany the 8th lost 60 aircraft, that is 600 men  

 in about a 7 to 8 hour time frame.  Not all those were KIA of course  

 and I don't know what percentage of the total number that would have  

 been.



 The loss rate for the 8th was 8%.  On some missions it was as high  

 as 12.3%.  With a lost rate of 2% theoretically a crew had a 50/50  

 chance.  At 4% no one would go the whole 25 missions. When we're  

 meet vets who flew the same aircraft in Pacific, you hear they flew  

 80 - 90 - sometimes over 100 missions.


	


It wasn't nearly as bad in the Pacific.



 	  Quote: 	
		   When I meet some of the old vets from the 8th and I hear they did  

 25-30 or 35 missions, I try to rub up against them, hoping some of  

 their luck will rub off.


	


You should. They must have been lucky sum....



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: Formation

On Jan 14, 2008, at 4:27 PM, Mark Davis wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



   The LSO's wore lighted suits including their legs.  The closest we  

 had in my day was Station 3 MOVLAS where the manually operated  

 landing aid was on the right side of the landing area.  Tended to  

 make people drift right in close to at the ramp.  Lots of last  

 minute "come left" calls.  Never had to fly or wave one at night.   

 True practice bleeding.   I'll always have reverence for the  

 Crusader and Whale guys that flew nights off of 27 Charlie class  

 carriers.  My 113 night traps on Carl Vinson and Kitty Hawk were  

 cake compared to that.

    As for axial deck night ops, as I understand it not everyone flew  

 at night.  There were specific night fighter squadrons.  Don't know  

 whether it was the better sticks or the FNG's that didn't know any  

 better!


	


I went with my father to his air group reunion which was held in  

conjunction with Tailhook in Reno about 6 years back. I listen to the  

stories and I shake my head in wonder. Flying and aerial warfare was a  

much more up-close-and-personal thing back then.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: Formation

Mark,

You are living the life! Hey, who would not want to spend 6 mo out the year sleeping under a runway with some machine hissing and going bang in the middle of one's 2 am beauty sleep! In a blue world where the nearest divert base is 2000 nm  away all when you can't get fuel because the D#$M5(at) receptacle door won't cycle open.

You are my hero!



Doc



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: Formation

Nah...just nuts!

Doc



--

MarkWDavis

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, KS

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: Formation

The US Navy's learning curve was as steep as the advancement of the 

aircraft.  Thach's and other veterans' section tactics and the transition 

from Brewster Buffaloes and Wildcats to Hellcats reversed a horrible loss 

ratio in a little over a years' time.  A newbie in a Wildcat didn't fare 

well against a seasoned Jap veteran.  A well trained section of Hellcat 

drivers using proper tactics feasted on Zeros.



Mark Davis

---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: Formation

Brain,

It is amazing what all the guys including my dad, step dad, your dad, the 80

+ y.o. P-47 and the 90 + y.o. B-17 drivers still flying out of my home drome

along will all those from the great generation that survived one of

history's greatest challenges in the fight for our freedom. What they did

was Herculean as is what our kids, my son included, are doing now to protect

our freedoms.

Doc



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: Formation

Sheesh... Air Force folks....   



Doc, Navy/Marine Corps aircraft do not have "receptable doors".  We have

refueling PROBES, commonly referred to as "Donkey Dicks".  Sometimes

they retract, sometimes they are fixed, but they are ALWAYS big.  



Only the Air Force has "receptable doors".... So that those with probes

can get in I suppose.  



I'd say that this pretty describes the difference between the service

branches as well........  



Your friend, 



Mark Bitterlich





--

MarkWDavis

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, KS

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:52 pm Post subject: Formation

Doc,

     I had a stateroom under the jet blast deflector on Cat 1 on Carl Vinson 

for one workup period.  You didn't bother putting anything on a shelf 

because it would be on the floor after the first launch!  I've been out for 

20 years and I still can sleep through about any noise, but a voice still 

wakes me up.  Go figure.



Mark Davis

N44YK

N44YK

---

MarkWDavis

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, KS

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: Formation

Mark, I concur!  And we can do it in the dark without the help of someone 

watching us and helping put it in!  Although when tanking off of a basket 

equipped  KC 135 we had to confirm single pump operation.   :  )



Mark Davis

N44YK



---

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: Formation

Pretty good!  Never heard that one!  



As I remember, the old 135's had no take up reel.  Just like the USAF

too.... Instead of appreciating what came knocking, they tried to rip it

off at the root!  



Mark

 



--

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: Formation

In a message dated 1/14/2008 9:41:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14    64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



Sheesh... Air Force    folks....   



Doc, Navy/Marine Corps aircraft do not have    "receptable doors".  We have

refueling PROBES, commonly referred to as    "Donkey Dicks".  Sometimes

they retract, sometimes they are fixed, but    they are ALWAYS big.  



Only the Air Force has "receptable    doors".... So that those with probes

can get in I suppose.     



I'd say that this pretty describes the difference between the    service

branches as well........  

Your friend, 

Mark    Bitterlich



	


 

  

 "OOOOooooooooooooooo now there's a punch of 'inter service  rivalry'  i.e. pussy's and dicks.  One manly - one girly (or  is it girlyman).  Must be a Marine who thinks up things like that.   ))

  

  



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

MarkWDavis

Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 104
Location: Syracuse, KS

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: Formation

No take up reel or response, just push it forward until you got a big lazy 

S. Too far forward and it would flip around in a circle and take out your 

radome.  Before you could back out and disconnect  you had to get permission 

from the boom operator.  We had an Intruder that brought a basket back to 

Carl Vinson while we were hanging around on Gonzo Station.  Supposedly the 

release mechanism failed to uncouple.  He had gone through all the proper 

voice calls before backing out.  At least his obstructed view trap was in 

the daytime.  We were blue water and it removed any further tanking options.



Mark Davis

N44YK



---

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