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Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

Scott, I'll try to get back to you offlist.

BB



On 13, Jan 2008, at 2:35 PM, olendorf wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Today I was cleaning up the cage getting it ready to start painting  

 it with  primer.  I found a rotted tube.  It wasn't noticeable  

 until I started wiping it down with a scrubbing pad.  You can see  

 it is wet inside the tube.



 I had to test the other tubes as well and I didn't know how best to  

 do it. What I did was I took a piece of aluminum tubing and started  

 hitting the other tubes. When I came to the spot in the other side  

 of the cage I left a dent so I know that side was weak as well.  I  

 guess that is a good way to test your tubing even if it is covered.



 It was good to find it now rather then while landing.



 So now I have two tubes that need to be replaced.  Does anyone know  

 what size and type of tubing I will need?  I plan on bringing it to  

 an aircraft repair shop but I would like to know the size in case I  

 need to provide my own material.



 --------

 Scott Olendorf

 Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop

 Schenectady, NY

 http://KolbFirestar.googlepages.com





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157840#157840





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/rot_3_253.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/rot_2_363.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/rot_1_187.jpg

Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:23 am Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

"John Hauck" writes: << May have corroded from inside out. Primary

reason to use tube seal inside the fuselage and other 4130 tubes.  Just

cause you can not see it, does not mean it ain't rusting away while you

sleep and fly. >>



John, and All -



My question is, how did moisture get inside the tube in the first place?



I agree that using Tube Seal may prevent rust from forming on the inside

of the tube, but all the tubes on my Kolb's cage are welded at each end.

No openings for Tube Seal, or water to get in.  (I'm pretty sure.)



So how how d'ya suppose water got into Olendorf's Firestar cage tubes?

Maybe a cracked weld somewhere, and then getting left outside in the

rain?



Dennis Kirby

Mark-3 Classic, in

New Mexico

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:44 am Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

Often a welder will make a small hole on the under side of a tube   

somewhere, to relieve any buildup of air pressure when making the  

final weld. Was  plugged with beeswax, before SeaFoam was invented.

I knew a salvage Captain in the Caribbean  who had a 4-seat steel  

tube-&-fabric plane aboard his 90' salvage tug; hoisted aboard and  

launched by crane., He went to the factory & checked until he found a  

newly-made airframe that did not leak any air pressure. Then  he had  

it filled with oil, and the filler-hole plugged, and left it there.  

Added some 20 lbs of weight, but those tubes are NEVER going to rust  

from the inside out.

John H's practise of using tube seal is lots easier & likely just as  

good. Listen to the experienced pilots!



On Jan 14, 2008, at 11:22 AM, Kirby Dennis Contr MDA/AL wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil>





 "John Hauck" writes: << May have corroded from inside out. Primary

 reason to use tube seal inside the fuselage and other 4130 tubes.   

 Just

 cause you can not see it, does not mean it ain't rusting away while  

 you

 sleep and fly. >>



 John, and All -



 My question is, how did moisture get inside the tube in the first  

 place?



 I agree that using Tube Seal may prevent rust from forming on the  

 inside

 of the tube, but all the tubes on my Kolb's cage are welded at each  

 end.

 No openings for Tube Seal, or water to get in.  (I'm pretty sure.)



 So how how d'ya suppose water got into Olendorf's Firestar cage tubes?

 Maybe a cracked weld somewhere, and then getting left outside in the

 rain?



 Dennis Kirby

 Mark-3 Classic, in

 New Mexico

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

> "John Hauck" writes: << May have corroded from inside out. Primary

 	  Quote: 	
		   reason to use tube seal inside the fuselage and other 4130 tubes.  Just

 cause you can not see it, does not mean it ain't rusting away while you

 sleep and fly. >>

 John, and All -

 My question is, how did moisture get inside the tube in the first place?

 >

 	  Quote: 	
		   Dennis Kirby

Hi Dennis K:

Moisture gets inside the tubes because the tubes are not sealed completely 

by welding.  Usually there are a few pin holes here and there that are 

undetectable with the naked eye.

If there is a pin hole in a weld, the tube seal will find it and seal it up. 

If a weld cracks, tube seal will let you know with a tell tale black streak 

from the crack.

john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

John, what is the best location to drill holes for the seal injection

  

  In a message dated 1/14/2008 12:30:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck"    <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 	  Quote: 	
		   "John Hauck" writes: << May    have corroded from inside out. Primary

 reason to use tube seal inside    the fuselage and other 4130 tubes.  Just

 cause you can not see    it, does not mean it ain't rusting away while you

 sleep and fly.    >>



 John, and All -



 My question is, how    did moisture get inside the tube in the first place?



 Dennis    Kirby


	




Hi Dennis K:



Moisture gets inside the tubes because    the tubes are not sealed completely 

by welding.  Usually there are a    few pin holes here and there that are 

undetectable with the naked    eye.



If there is a pin hole in a weld, the tube seal will find it and    seal it up. 

If a weld cracks, tube seal will let you know with a tell tale    black streak 

from the crack.



john h

mkIII    es  y       -->                 - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  nbsp;               - List Contribution Web Site  ;                             =========================



    

   Steve

Firefly 007/Floats

do not  archive

	




Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

Steve B:

  

 I usually drill 1/8" hole near a weld at the end of main tubes  which I consider catastrophic is they should fail.  The little bracing  tubes that would not have a catastrophic effect on flight I usually do not  inject tube seal.

  

 I haven't bought any tube seal since 1984 so I do not know  what kind of instructions are on the cans of newer stuff.  The old Stitts  Tube Seal had instructions in ccm for diameter and lenght of tubing.  I get  large hyperdermic needles and syringes from my Vet which are graduated in  ccm.

  

 After the tube seal goes in I seal the hole with an 1/8"  aluminum closed end pop rivet.

  

 If there are pin holes in the welds, the tube seal will seal  them.  If you should develop a crack, tube seal will leave a tell tale  streak of black to let you know you have a problem.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]   ---

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

In a message dated 1/14/2008 2:39:48 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Steve B:

    

   I usually drill 1/8" hole near a weld at the end of main    tubes which I consider catastrophic is they should fail.  The little    bracing tubes that would not have a catastrophic effect on flight I usually do    not inject tube seal.

    

   I haven't bought any tube seal since 1984 so I do not know    what kind of instructions are on the cans of newer stuff.     

	
  

  

 John, Funny, but I have a can from about 1984 also. I have been meaning to  do that on the Old FF as well as on the new one.  Thanks   

 Steve

Firefly 007/Floats

do not  archive





Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

condensation could sure make water in a welded solid airframe tube

  

 1 cent worth  4 Yea

  

 Do not archive



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year.

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

 	  slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote: 	
		  Scott, I'll try to get back to you offlist.

BB



On 13, Jan 2008, at 2:35 PM, olendorf wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Today I was cleaning up the cage getting it ready to start painting  

 it with  primer.  I found a rotted tube.  It wasn't noticeable  

 until I started wiping it down with a scrubbing pad.  You can see  

 it is wet inside the tube.



 I had to test the other tubes as well and I didn't know how best to  

 do it. What I did was I took a piece of aluminum tubing and started  

 hitting the other tubes. When I came to the spot in the other side  

 of the cage I left a dent so I know that side was weak as well.  I  

 guess that is a good way to test your tubing even if it is covered.



 It was good to find it now rather then while landing.



 So now I have two tubes that need to be replaced.  Does anyone know  

 what size and type of tubing I will need?  I plan on bringing it to  

 an aircraft repair shop but I would like to know the size in case I  

 need to provide my own material.



 --------

 Scott Olendorf

 Original Firestar, Rotax 447, Powerfin prop

 Schenectady, NY

 http://KolbFirestar.googlepages.com



 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157840#157840



 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/rot_3_253.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/rot_2_363.jpg

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/rot_1_187.jpg



	
	




Scott, have you ever stored your plane outside or has it ever been on floats?  I've never seen anything like this before.

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

All that talk of sealing the _inside_ of the tubes... was the area in 

question covered by fabric?  Fabric can hold moisture against the outside 

of the tube, and you never see the corrosion between the fabric and the 

tube.  That's what happened in the tail of my Taylorcraft (though 

admittedly it had been an outside plane for many years).  Nowadays lots of 

people leave the very back lower section uncovered to avoid the problem.



-Dana



--

  (A)bort, (R)etry, (P)retend it didn't happen?

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

 	  Quote: 	
		   All that talk of sealing the _inside_ of the tubes...

 -Dana


	




Dana:



Easy to see outside corrosion.



Impossible to see inside the tube until it rusts through.



Might get your attention if you should get involved overhauling Kolb 

fuselages.  Amazing what one finds when he starts cutting out old tubing. 

Those that have not been tube sealed usually are suffering from internal 

corrosion.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

tkrolfe(at)toast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Folks:



 May have corroded from inside out.



 Primary reason to use tube seal inside the fuselage and other 4130 tubes.  Just cause you can not see it, does not mean it ain't rusting away while you sleep and fly.



 The awl punch test will tell you when the tube is about ready to fail.  Won't tell you anything about a tube that is rusting from inside out and not reached the point that the awl will penetrate the corroded tube.



 I have been using one quart of Stitts Tube Seal for 24 years and three Kolb fuselages.  Still have a pint left.  Never had a tube rust through, yet.  



 Ignoring it will not make it go away.



 --------

 John Hauck

 MKIII/912ULS

 hauck's holler, alabama

   


	


Scott,



John is right about using tube seal.  I used it on my FireFly with the 

technique he describes.  Tube seal is nothing more than Boiled Linseed 

Oil that has been thinned about 50% with turpentine or paint thinner.  

It's a lot cheaper to pick up a pint or quart of Boiled Linseed Oil and 

thin it yourself.  Make sure it's "Boiled Linseed Oil".



One other point, if you have pin holes already, the seal will leak out 

for some time until it seals it,  Can be messy if that occurs. 



If memory serves  me well, the cage tubes on a FireFly are .035 thick.  

Don't know what your Original FireStar might be.  Probably the same.



Good luck with the repairs, can you weld?



Terry -  FireFly  #95



P's.  Can find the chart for how much to inject into teach tube if your 

interested.

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

At 07:57 PM 1/14/2008, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Easy to see outside corrosion.



Impossible to see inside the tube until it rusts through.


	


I realize that; my point was that even _outside_ corrosion may be unseen if 

covered by fabric (until the fabric is removed, of course)... and that the 

fabric, if it gets wet, can accelerate the corrosion.



-Dana

--

  (A)bort, (R)etry, (P)retend it didn't happen?

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

Just FYI -- West Marine has the SPOT for $150

biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

Thanks, Russ.  I think I'm going to go ahead and buy 

one.                  Lar.



Russ Kinne wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Just FYI -- West Marine has the SPOT for $150




	


-- 

Larry Bourne

Santa Fe, NM

Building Kolb Mk III

"Vamoose"

www.gogittum.com

www.gogittum.com/blog

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

1planeguy(at)kilocharlie.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: Rotten cage tubes found. Photos attached.

Often a welder will make a small hole on the under side of a tube   

somewhere, to relieve any buildup of air pressure when making the  

final weld. Was  plugged with beeswax, before SeaFoam was invented.

I knew a salvage Captain in the Caribbean  who had a 4-seat steel  

tube-&-fabric plane aboard his 90' salvage tug; hoisted aboard and  

launched by crane., He went to the factory & checked until he found a  

newly-made airframe that did not leak any air pressure. Then  he had  

it filled with oil, and the filler-hole plugged, and left it there.  

Added some 20 lbs of weight, but those tubes are NEVER going to rust  

from the inside out.

John H's practise of using tube seal is lots easier & likely just as  

good. Listen to the experienced pilots!



<snip>



For what it's worth (trivia really...) The plane Sean Tucker (the

airshow performer) flies has a steel tube fuselage.  When it was built

there was a small hole drilled in the continuous tube at every joint

that would be covered by the adjoining tube.  This means that there are

no closed tubes in the structure...there is basically just a continuous

truss...one tube open to the next and open to the next...etc.  They

welded a fitting onto one of the tubes in the cockpit area that has a

valve and a gauge.  They pumped nitrogen into the tubes to pressurize

them with the pressure reading on the gauge.  The last part of the

preflight before he goes and subjects the airframe to 9+ G's is look at

the little gauge...if there is no pressure he gets back out of the

plane.  Was told that he has had to cancel 2 different performances over

the years due to the "no-pressure" gauge.  No pressure means cracked

weld, time to rip off fabric and have a look see...not surprising when

you see how hard he pushes an airplane.



Jeremy Casey

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