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Holes in the sky
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lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: Holes in the sky

Gang,

    It was just too nice to work around the place  today. I kept trying, but I caught myself at least three times looking outside  at the windsock and the sunshine. I finally gave up and got into my winter  flying suit, wrapped my "wild rag" (Buckaroo silk scarf) around my throat and  fired her up. The temp was 39 degrees with a one mile per hour wind. I cut off  cross country for the Owyhee Canyon, skimming the ground at about 100 feet only  deviating enough to harass ( that would be Look closely) Coyotes, Antelope  and Deer. I almost forgot a flock of Geese that I scared the crap out of,  literally. I also checked the Canyon for access points for spring  fishing.

  

     The thread about landings and tight  airports are a bit curious to me. I have the VG's on my Firestar and I am able  to meet or exceed the factory take off and landings of 200 and 300 feet. I am  also at 4000 feet elevation. Roger in his KXP , with no VG's can most likely  land a lot shorter than I can. That is just skill, I am getting better  though.

  

   After arriving back at the house and the 2600 ft dirt  strip, I got to thinking about dead stick landings and how much altitude it took  at dead stick to turn around and get back on the strip. I first tried it with  the engine at idle. I got 600 feet above the runway flying down the center line  and cut the engine. It took me less than 100 feet to complete my 360. Then I  lined up again down the middle of the strip at 600 feet.  I waited until  the plane was past the end of the runway  before cutting the engine off. I  then stabilized my glide to 50 MPH before starting my turn. At the completion of  my 360 I had still only lost about 80 feet, and was still way too high to land,  so I restarted and set it up again. Thinking that I had somehow forgotten  my beginning altitude I did it again. This time I decided that I was going to  dead stick it all the way to the ground. My last was probably in 2000 at the  Alvord. ( 6x11 miles) I repeated the setup again only this time at 500 feet and  about 100 feet to the right of the strip. When I could see the strip behind my  strut, I cut the engine, established my glide rate at 50 and brought her around  at probably 30 degrees of roll. When I was straight, I was 420 feet over the end  of the runway. I brought the speed down to 40 MPH and I was still going to  overshoot the runway and land in my driveway, so I put it into as radical a slip  as I could and kept the speed at 50 MPH. I released the slip around 125 feet  above the ground and got it on 50 and landed just as nice as could  be.

  

     I am sure that some of the reduced height  needed was due to the cold air, I am sure that the VG's helped as well. I will  repeat the experiment when the warm weather returns. I am not the best "Bush  Pilot" in this neck of the sage,  but I find very little problem with landing  on these two track roads and out of the way areas at all. If you only operate  your Kolb as a GA plane off of paved strips and large airports your are missing  the best part of Homer's design. It is true that the margin for error is  increased with bush flying, but airport flying makes you sloppy.

 Larry C

 do not archive

   [quote][b]

_________________
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boyter(at)mcsi.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: Holes in the sky

Larry

 Be careful with the dead stick landings,  one of these times you are coming in to high the engine will not start. Ask  me how I know. I will never do a dead stick landing with the engine OFF again.  Good luck have fun be safe.

 Wayne

 [quote]   ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: Holes in the sky

Wayne:

  

 Wish I could say that.

  

 Larry has a good place to practice dead stick  landings, 2,600 feet of gravel with some over run.  

  

 Bet way I know to be prepared when the engine stops  unintentionally.

  

 I'd rather take a chance on tearing up the airplane  practicing than to do it during an actual engine out and not be familiar with  how the airplane flies with the prop stopped.

  

 john h

 mkIII - Who does not do nearly enough actual dead  stick landings.

  

  

 [quote]    I will    never do a dead stick landing with the engine OFF again. Good luck have fun be    safe.

   Wayne

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

ez(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: Holes in the sky

On Jan 18, 2008, at 10:48 PM, Larry Cottrell wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  about 100 feet only deviating enough to harass ( that would be Look closely) Coyotes, Antelope and Deer. 	




Look closely ??  Where is the pict?

 [quote][b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Holes in the sky

[quote="boyter(at)mcsi.net"]Larry

 Be careful with the dead stick landings,  one of these times you are coming in to high the engine will not start. Ask  me how I know. I will never do a dead stick landing with the engine OFF again.  Good luck have fun be safe.

 Wayne

  	  Quote: 	
		     --- 	




For what it's worth, at least with the 2-stroke motors, this was one of the nicest things about using the C box with the clutch. You could practice actual deadsticks but with the engine still idling. 



Pulling back the throttle to idle disengages the clutch, which gives you exactly the situation of an engine out, minus only the total silence....



I did this a bunch with my FS II and it was really good practice.



Havn't shut off the motor in the titan yet and he's got the 912uls on it... So for accurate simulations, I'll have to shut it down..... No good place found yet to practice it, but this is a good reminder that I oughta at some point...



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: Holes in the sky

 	  Quote: 	
		   Pulling back the throttle to idle disengages the clutch, which gives you 

 exactly the situation of an engine out, minus only the total silence....

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   LS


	




Lucien:



I don't know much about clutches on C Gearboxes.



Doesn't the prop windmill if the throttle is pulled back to idle?



If it does, then you will be experiencing something similar to autorotation 

which produces a lot of drag.



My experience indicates dead stick glide performance is a lot different than 

gliding with an idling prop.  An idling prop is like sticking a big disc in 

the windstream as opposed to a dead stick which presents only the profile of 

the prop blades.



For your particular FS with gear box clutch, if that is the way you practice 

your dead stick landings, then that is what you will experience if you lose 

the engine.



On the other hand, the pilot that practices emergency landings at idle will 

be surprised when he does experience an actual dead stick.  The Kolb will 

glide much better than he anticipates because of reduced drag.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:41 am Post subject: Holes in the sky

 	  Quote: 	
		   On the other hand, the pilot that practices emergency landings at idle will

 be surprised when he does experience an actual dead stick. The Kolb will

 glide much better than he anticipates because of reduced drag.



 john h

 mkIII


	


John,



  All good points to be aware of!!  I guess that's the point.  If you're airplane has a windmilling prop and produces certain tendencies, a person would want to be aware of those tendencies BEFORE an actual emergency.  Equally important is the guy that has a solidly mounted prop, that is practically motionless.  He definitely would want to know how his plane will reacts once everything goes silent.



  Practicing power off, or power reduced landings should be an essential part of a prudent pilot!  If (or when) I ever face a dead stick landing, I darn sure don't want it to be the first time I ever did one.



  Actually, now that I think of it, years ago, when I was training in a Flightstar, the instructor turned OFF the engine...and said.."it's all your's, land it!!"   Did a mighty fine job, if I say so myself.  Being proficient at dead stick landings can be nothing but a good thing!!



Mike Welch  MkIII



Do Not Archive

_________________________________________________________________

Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix".

http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx

dcreech3(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: Holes in the sky

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 My experience indicates dead stick glide performance is a lot different than 

 gliding with an idling prop. An idling prop is like sticking a big disc in 

 the windstream as opposed to a dead stick which presents only the profile of 

 the prop blades.

 

  

 john h

 mkIII

 

 


	


 By "idling", do you mean freewheeling, disengaged from the engine?  If you just mean pulling the power back to idle, I've seen it argued that that configuration still produces some thrust, resulting in somewhat better glide performance than with a stopped prop.  I don't claim to know.

  

 If we listed these three configurations in order of best-to-worst glide performance, would it be: (1) Power reduced to idle; (2) Stopped prop; (3) Freewheeling (disengaged) prop?  

  

 Lee

 Firestar II

Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix". Check it out.  [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: Holes in the sky

John, and you'ze guys, I had the Rice King clutch in my C box. Pull the power and you have the glide ratio of the space shuttle. You couldn't pay me enough to have a clutch in my drive system again. Might as well install a drogue chute. 

When I got home from Sun n Fun, I pulled it out and traded it to the owner of Wallaby Ranch for flying time when I'm at Sun n Fun this year.

The Wallaby Ranch uses them in their Moyes' Dragonfly tugs so they can point the nose at the ground after they release a glider and have no danger of going over VNE. It's an amazing thing to watch from above. Must have been what pilots flying cover for the Stuka's saw. 



Rick



On Jan 19, 2008 11:38 AM, Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: Mike Welch <mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com (mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.com)>

 	  Quote: 	
		   On the other hand, the pilot that practices emergency landings at idle will 

 be surprised when he does experience an actual dead stick. The Kolb will

 glide much better than he anticipates because of reduced drag.



 john h

 mkIII


	




John,



   All good points to be aware of!!  I guess that's the point.  If you're airplane has a windmilling prop and produces certain tendencies, a person would want to be aware of those tendencies BEFORE an actual emergency.  Equally important is the guy that has a solidly mounted prop, that is practically motionless.  He definitely would want to know how his plane will reacts once everything goes silent. 



  Practicing power off, or power reduced landings should be an essential part of a prudent pilot!  If (or when) I ever face a dead stick landing, I darn sure don't want it to be the first time I ever did one.

 

  Actually, now that I think of it, years ago, when I was training in a Flightstar, the instructor turned OFF the engine...and said.."it's all your's, land it!!"   Did a mighty fine job, if I say so myself.  Being proficient at dead stick landings can be nothing but a good thing!! 



Mike Welch  MkIII



Do Not Archive

_________________________________________________________________

Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail®-get your "fix".  [quote][b]

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: Holes in the sky

[quote] ---

_________________
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lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Holes in the sky

[quote="John Hauck"] 	  Quote: 	
		  

Lucien:



I don't know much about clutches on C Gearboxes.



Doesn't the prop windmill if the throttle is pulled back to idle?



If it does, then you will be experiencing something similar to autorotation 

which produces a lot of drag.



	




Yes, the prop does windmill as it's completely disengaged from the engine (at the drive pinion anyway).



The drag generated, judging by the glide ratio I had vs. planes with fixed props when stopped, was considerable.



The drag, tho, wasn't necessarily a bad thing. It did reduce the overall glide ratio but, on the other hand, was very useful as a poor-man's drag brake which could be very useful on an approach that was a bit too high.



When practicing deadstick, you have to learn the power-off glide ratio all the same with the drag so the end result isn't any different. You just have to keep the intended landing spots closer than you otherwise would...

 	  Quote: 	
		  



My experience indicates dead stick glide performance is a lot different than 

gliding with an idling prop.  An idling prop is like sticking a big disc in 

the windstream as opposed to a dead stick which presents only the profile of 

the prop blades.



For your particular FS with gear box clutch, if that is the way you practice 

your dead stick landings, then that is what you will experience if you lose 

the engine.



On the other hand, the pilot that practices emergency landings at idle will 

be surprised when he does experience an actual dead stick.  The Kolb will 

glide much better than he anticipates because of reduced drag.



john h

mkIII 	




Exactly my experience too.... 

But like I said, the clutch allowed an exact simulation of engine-off conditions just by pulling back to idle, whereas with the prop engaged fulltime, you have to actually turn the motor off for an exact simulation.



Well worth the 500 bucks for the clutch on that alone, not to mention all the other advantages it gave....



Wish I had one on my 912....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: Holes in the sky

>

 	  Quote: 	
		   Wish I had one on my 912....



 LS


	




Lucien:



I feel the clutch takes away a very important factor in emergency power off 

landings, glide.  There are a lot of ways to reduce glide, but can not name 

any to stretch it.



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: Holes in the sky

I can think of one... (snicker)



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   <snip>



 Lucien:



 I feel the clutch takes away a very important factor in emergency 

 power off landings, glide.  There are a lot of ways to reduce glide, 

 but can not name any to stretch it.



 john h

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject: Holes in the sky

Rev:



Perhaps you will share that with us.  Might come in handy if I ever have to 

stretch my glide.



john h

mkIII

 	  Quote: 	
		   I can think of one... (snicker)



 Richard Pike

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

capedavis(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: Holes in the sky

John Ive had to stretch my glide a few times ! Hey Donnie at TNK called me yesterday and said my Firefly kit is ready and it should be delivered MONDAY  !! now if I can get my workbenches and a table set up in time as Ive only been in Florida for two days and its been a short two days ,but at any rate I'll get a month or two to work on it as I have to go back up north the first week of march this year as my daughter is having a baby that week and my sweet wife wants to be there for that , as do I .  Chris 



 [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:22 pm Post subject: Holes in the sky

Could it be that Richard is baiting us?????



options:

kick out passenger

jato bottle

lift up on seat cushion

restart engine

-I'll skip any spiritual concepts 

BB

do not archive



On 19, Jan 2008, at 3:55 PM, Richard Pike wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I can think of one... (snicker)



 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



 John Hauck wrote:

> <snip>

>

> Lucien:

>

> I feel the clutch takes away a very important factor in emergency  

> power off landings, glide.  There are a lot of ways to reduce  

> glide, but can not name any to stretch it.

>

> john h

>

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: Holes in the sky

>

 	  Quote: 	
		   options:

 kick out passenger

 jato bottle

 lift up on seat cushion

 restart engine

 -I'll skip any spiritual concepts 

 BB


	




Bob B:



Guess you could lift up on the stick grip, and/or flap your arms out each 

door, and/or pray..............



I don't know.  When airspeed is less than flying speed, one would need 

something spiritual to keep them flying.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Holes in the sky

I was thinking more along the lines of a simple device to reduce both 

airspeed and flying speed at the lower end of the gliding airspeed 

spectrum.

Too bad that such a thing apparently does not exist...



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)



John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   <snip>



 I don't know.  When airspeed is less than flying speed, one would need 

 something spiritual to keep them flying.



 john h

 mkIII

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Holes in the sky

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  >

 	  Quote: 	
		   Wish I had one on my 912....



 LS



	




Lucien:



I feel the clutch takes away a very important factor in emergency power off 

landings, glide.  There are a lot of ways to reduce glide, but can not name 

any to stretch it.



john h 	




Again, one has to Ask The Man Who Flies One for the real skinny on such things, especially with the RK-400 clutch since they're not too widely used. Shame, because they solve so many more problems than they introduce. 



At any rate, being one who actually flew the clutch and for a considerable amount of time, I don't agree that it's a safety problem for two reasons:



- the reduction in glide, while noticeable, isn't that bad. My (now Bob's) FS II did not glide like a brick compared to a friend of mine's FS II that had the fixed 2-blade prop. In fact, I've flown other planes with far worse glide ratios that didn't have a clutch and they were no less safe engine-off than my FS II was.



- because you can simulate the exact conditions of an engine-off landing by simply pulling back to idle, you DON'T actually have to shut off the motor. Thus, practicing them is much safer and less nerve wracking. So, you're a lot more inclined to do the practice, even in places and in conditions you otherwise wouldn't, such as at a busy or towered airport (simply ask for the option and you're ready to rock and roll). 

You have to learn how to glide your particular plane in to a safe landing deadstick anyway the way it's configured. You're far more likely to do the practice under safe conditions like a warm, idling engine in case you really do screw up an approach.....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:06 pm Post subject: Holes in the sky

Lucien, I flew with the rice king for almost a year and absolutely hated what it did to the glide of the Kolb. They should be used for what they were made, pushing an airboat through a rice paddy. MHO

Rick

 On Jan 19, 2008 9:22 PM, lucien <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lucien" <lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com (lstavenhagen(at)hotmail.com)>

John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   >

 >  Wish I had one on my 912.... 

 >

 >  LS

 >

 >

 Lucien:

 I feel the clutch takes away a very important factor in emergency power off

 landings, glide.  There are a lot of ways to reduce glide, but can not name 

 any to stretch it.

 john h

Again, one has to Ask The Man Who Flies One for the real skinny on such things, especially with the RK-400 clutch since they're not too widely used. Shame, because they solve so many more problems than they introduce. 

At any rate, being one who actually flew the clutch and for a considerable amount of time, I don't agree that it's a safety problem for two reasons:

- the reduction in glide, while noticeable, isn't that bad. My (now Bob's) FS II did not glide like a brick compared to a friend of mine's FS II that had the fixed 2-blade prop. In fact, I've flown other planes with far worse glide ratios that didn't have a clutch and they were no less safe engine-off than my FS II was. 

- because you can simulate the exact conditions of an engine-off landing by simply pulling back to idle, you DON'T actually have to shut off the motor. Thus, practicing them is much safer and less nerve wracking. So, you're a lot more inclined to do the practice, even in places and in conditions you otherwise wouldn't, such as at a busy or towered airport (simply ask for the option and you're ready to rock and roll). 

You have to learn how to glide your particular plane in to a safe landing deadstick anyway the way it's configured. You're far more likely to do the practice under safe conditions like a warm, idling engine in case you really do screw up an approach..... 

LS

--------

LS

FS II

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=159313#159313 

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