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APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

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sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

I just replaced my APRS tracker in the RV with a more powerful 8 watt model, as the 300 mW unit was giving erratic results.  If everything is programmed and calibrated properly, and if I can get the wheels to roll through the snow on the turf strip, I will be conducting a trial flight is a few minutes to check it out. 



The following link should enable tracking in real time.  If all goes well, the last recorded flight track from November will be replaced with current data.  [url=http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600] http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600[/url]



I should be airborne by 16:50 EST.



Regards,



-Stormy N30YD / N4DLN

  [quote][b]

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

I seeeeee you!!  



Scott N0EDV

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)



Bill Boyd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I just replaced my APRS tracker in the RV with a more powerful 8 watt 

 model, as the 300 mW unit was giving erratic results.  If everything 

 is programmed and calibrated properly, and if I can get the wheels to 

 roll through the snow on the turf strip, I will be conducting a trial 

 flight is a few minutes to check it out.



 The following link should enable tracking in real time.  If all goes 

 well, the last recorded flight track from November will be replaced 

 with current data.  

 http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600 

 <http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600>



 I should be airborne by 16:50 EST.



 Regards,



 -Stormy N30YD / N4DLN

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

Replying to my own post, here-  too many things wrong with the flight so I stood down.  Garmin 296 wouldn't lock onto more than 2 birds, and thought the local time was 11:36 AM, so it acts like the internal battery is going south (flown as recently as last week) - but the unit powers up fine on the bench using just its own battery, as I write this.  Directional control on the snow was awful, even though there was lots of grass showing - just too much cover.  I think I packed the wheel pants with snow in short order.  I couldn't even hold brakes against a 1600 rpm run-up without sliding.  When I was about 50% beyond my normal rotation point and still hadn't broken ground, weaving like a taildragger pilot in a crosswind (gulp!) I balked the takeoff.  Barely had enough braking action to execute a 180 within the width of the strip. 



This is disappointing, since I wanted to fly tonight and wanted to demo the APRS, but I guess I get an "A" for decision making.  Even if I had had hull coverage I don't think I could have felt good about completing that takeoff, knowing I'd have to return to that  same runway in a few minutes and try to stop safely, possibly with frozen brake pads.  The weather is supposed to turn here tonight, so that was probably my one window to fly for the next week or two.  Snow expected again tomorrow and a deep freeze on top of that.  Should stay mushy out there till about April even if the snow dissipates.  Some days are like that. 



I'll post a heads-up if /when I try the airborne APRS again.  Meanwhile I'm going to have harsh words with my 296.



-Stormy



On Jan 18, 2008 4:37 PM, Bill Boyd < sportav8r(at)gmail.com (sportav8r(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]I just replaced my APRS tracker in the RV with a more powerful 8 watt model, as the 300 mW unit was giving erratic results.  If everything is programmed and calibrated properly, and if I can get the wheels to roll through the snow on the turf strip, I will be conducting a trial flight is a few minutes to check it out. 



The following link should enable tracking in real time.  If all goes well, the last recorded flight track from November will be replaced with current data.  [url=http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600]  http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600[/url]



I should be airborne by 16:50 EST.



Regards,



-Stormy N30YD / N4DLN

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

You are looking at data from November 3rd, unfortunately 



-Stormy



On Jan 18, 2008 4:57 PM, Scott <acepilot(at)bloomer.net (acepilot(at)bloomer.net)> wrote:

[quote] --> RV-List message posted by: Scott <acepilot(at)bloomer.net (acepilot(at)bloomer.net)>



I seeeeee you!!  



Scott N0EDV

 http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)





Bill Boyd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I just replaced my APRS tracker in the RV with a more powerful 8 watt 

 model, as the 300 mW unit was giving erratic results.  If everything

 is programmed and calibrated properly, and if I can get the wheels to

 roll through the snow on the turf strip, I will be conducting a trial 

 flight is a few minutes to check it out.



 The following link should enable tracking in real time.  If all goes

 well, the last recorded flight track from November will be replaced

 with current data. 

 [url=http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600]http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600[/url]

 <[url=http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600] http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600[/url]>



 I should be airborne by 16:50 EST.



 Regards,



 -Stormy N30YD / N4DLN





 
	




  [quote][b]

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:22 pm Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

Mmmmm, I clicked on the link and didn't see anything other than the map of the Lexington area...what am I missing?



Chuck Jensen

--

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

Not sure, Chuck.  Java scripts, maybe??  I just clicked on it and it displays a beautiful depiction of my figure-8 over Lexington.  Unfortunately, that's not today's flight, which, as I posted a while ago, was aborted due to snow pack on the runway and lack of tundra tires on the RV  



The 296 straightened itself out about 5 minutes after I lied to it and told it that I had stored it without batteries.  It now shows correct local time and position.  Pretty finicky for a $1400 unit that wants to moonlight as a doorstop.  If it continues to misbehave I'm going to stop feeding it electrons and make it come to heel. 



-Stormy



On Jan 18, 2008 5:18 PM, Chuck Jensen <cjensen(at)dts9000.com (cjensen(at)dts9000.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen(at)dts9000.com (cjensen(at)dts9000.com)>



Mmmmm, I clicked on the link and didn't see anything other than the map of the Lexington area...what am I missing? 



Chuck Jensen



--

rv7(at)b4.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

On 13:37 2008-01-18 "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I just replaced my APRS tracker in the RV with a more powerful 8 watt

 model, as the 300 mW unit was giving erratic results.  If everything

 is programmed and calibrated properly, and if I can get the wheels to

 roll through the snow on the turf strip, I will be conducting a trial

 flight is a few minutes to check it out.


	


That's pretty neat.



So what's the coverage like?  I think someone's previous post said that the

range can be 100 miles, and the repeaters would take it from there?  How

dense are the repeaters?



The main benefits of the SPOT system right now are the GPS coverage

(effectively unbroken coverage across North America), and Satellite Phone

uplink (ditto).



-Rob

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

Dangit!  No wonder there's no snow on the ground!   Do Not Archive



Scott

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)



Bill Boyd wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   You are looking at data from November 3rd, unfortunately 



 -Stormy



 On Jan 18, 2008 4:57 PM, Scott <acepilot(at)bloomer.net 

 <mailto:acepilot(at)bloomer.net>> wrote:



     

     <mailto:acepilot(at)bloomer.net>>



     I seeeeee you!!  



     Scott N0EDV

     http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

     Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

     Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)



     Bill Boyd wrote:



     > I just replaced my APRS tracker in the RV with a more powerful 8

     watt

     > model, as the 300 mW unit was giving erratic results.  If everything

     > is programmed and calibrated properly, and if I can get the

     wheels to

     > roll through the snow on the turf strip, I will be conducting a

     trial

     > flight is a few minutes to check it out.

     >

     > The following link should enable tracking in real time.  If all goes

     > well, the last recorded flight track from November will be replaced

     > with current data.

     > http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600

     <http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600>

     > < http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600

     <http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600>>

     >

     > I should be airborne by 16:50 EST.

     >

     > Regards,

     >

     > -Stormy N30YD / N4DLN

     >

     >

     >

     >

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

The repeater infrastructure is fairly good all across the country, I'm told.  For aerial use, the repeater coverage is not really an issue because the line of sight is so good (in the absence of mountainous terrain obstructions.)  All we need for internet tracking is to have the position packet make it to a single I-Gate station that posts it to the APRS web server.  That's much simpler in many ways than trying to send a position report from one terrestrial station to another by a series of digipeater hops.  I use a path of WIDE2-2 from the plane, which gives me 2 hops before the message dies.  If any of the stations involved in either hop is an I-Gate, I'm golden - my packet is stored on the server from then on, to be recalled by whatever viewer one might use - even months later. 



The drawback to APRS is that there is no closed loop or acknowledgment of the packet sent back to the originating station, so one must simply hope that some of the blind (unproto) packets have gotten through.  Make sense? 



I think the only real advantage that APRS might have over SPOT is the cost (free once you have the tracker).  Well, fully implemented APRS, which I don't have and don't plan to set up in the plane, would allow two-way text messaging - I think the SPOT only allows one way. 



-Stormy



On Jan 18, 2008 6:17 PM, Rob Prior <rv7(at)b4.ca (rv7(at)b4.ca)> wrote:

[quote] --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior" <rv7(at)b4.ca (rv7(at)b4.ca)>



On 13:37 2008-01-18 "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com (sportav8r(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   I just replaced my APRS tracker in the RV with a more powerful 8 watt

 model, as the 300 mW unit was giving erratic results.  If everything

 is programmed and calibrated properly, and if I can get the wheels to 

 roll through the snow on the turf strip, I will be conducting a trial

 flight is a few minutes to check it out.


	


That's pretty neat.



So what's the coverage like?  I think someone's previous post said that the 

range can be 100 miles, and the repeaters would take it from there?  How

dense are the repeaters?



The main benefits of the SPOT system right now are the GPS coverage

(effectively unbroken coverage across North America), and Satellite Phone 

  [quote][b]

rv7(at)b4.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

On 19:07 2008-01-18 "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think the only real advantage that APRS might have over SPOT is the

 cost (free once you have the tracker).  Well, fully implemented APRS,

 which I don't have and don't plan to set up in the plane, would allow

 two-way text messaging - I think the SPOT only allows one way.


	


That's correct, and it's the one minor downside to the SPOT system. 

Messaging is one-way, and you have only three messages you can send ("I'm

OK", "Friends, I need help", and "Send the cavalry", effectively).  The

major downside, as you point out, is the yearly cost.



What's the weight of the hardware necessary for APRS?  How easy would it be

to remove from a downed plane if you needed to and/or decided to leave the

crash site?  One benefit of SPOT over ELT is that if you need to move, you

can bring the beacon with you and trackers will know that you've moved and

know where you are.



-Rob

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:11 am Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

I'm guessing the APRS hardware I am using (gps and 8 watt tracker, with its homemade circuit-board (copperclad) enclosure) wieghs about 3 ounces or so.  Without an external battery, there is no point in removing it from the ship, and I have not made provisions for that.  If your crash site is too remote to allow people to see the wreckage from town, it may also be too remote to hit a digipeater from the ground with low power   there is no way to tell but to try it, and with transmit-only hardware, no way to know if you are being digipeated.  It certainly has its limits. 



-Stormy



On Jan 18, 2008 11:52 PM, Rob Prior <rv7(at)b4.ca (rv7(at)b4.ca)> wrote:

[quote] --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior" <rv7(at)b4.ca (rv7(at)b4.ca)>



On 19:07 2008-01-18 "Bill Boyd" <sportav8r(at)gmail.com (sportav8r(at)gmail.com)> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think the only real advantage that APRS might have over SPOT is the

 cost (free once you have the tracker).  Well, fully implemented APRS,

 which I don't have and don't plan to set up in the plane, would allow 

 two-way text messaging - I think the SPOT only allows one way.


	


That's correct, and it's the one minor downside to the SPOT system.

Messaging is one-way, and you have only three messages you can send ("I'm 

OK", "Friends, I need help", and "Send the cavalry", effectively).  The

major downside, as you point out, is the yearly cost.



What's the weight of the hardware necessary for APRS?  How easy would it be 

to remove from a downed plane if you needed to and/or decided to leave the

crash site?  One benefit of SPOT over ELT is that if you need to move, you

can bring the beacon with you and trackers will know that you've moved and 

  [quote][b]

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

A possible serious negative of APRS is coverage in mountainous/western 

areas.



I think that Spot is going to win out in coverage.



As far as 2-way texting...it sounds good but to me the most important 

element

is notification of the need for help/rescue.



Plus Spot is "off the shelf"



Ron Lee

d-burton(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

One consideration if you don't think the continued subscription costs of the

Spot system sounds attractive is to rent one when taking a trip that puts

you over wilderness areas.  Satellite phone stores rent phones for trips

like this and they also rent Spots... your choice.



DaveB

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

I'm going to try again, Orville 



The snow is sublimating in the sunshine and 22 degree wind, and I think I can get airborne without packing the wheelpants with slush.  It might be a long downhill takeoff roll, with a 20 knot tailwind, but the landing will be almost a hover. 



I hope to be up at altitude by 3:00 EST.  Here's the link again:  [url=http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600]http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600[/url] 



Hopefully we will see some new data points appearing in real-time.  This stronger transmitter has not been recalibrated as-installed for clean output, proper deviation, etc except at the factory, so I am hopeful, but not guaranteeing anything. 



If this works in googlemaps, try clicking the google earth KML feature to see a 3D flight path depiction in real time (will SPOT do that??)



-Stormy



fingers crossed on the Garmin 296, too.

  [quote][b]

sportav8r(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 1:18 pm Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

Well, I'm not selling the bicycle shop, that's for dang sure.  Flight to 7200' MSL and not a single ping- something is very wrong.  I'll be back---!



-Stormy



On Jan 20, 2008 2:46 PM, Bill Boyd < sportav8r(at)gmail.com (sportav8r(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]I'm going to try again, Orville  



The snow is sublimating in the sunshine and 22 degree wind, and I think I can get airborne without packing the wheelpants with slush.  It might be a long downhill takeoff roll, with a 20 knot tailwind, but the landing will be almost a hover. 



I hope to be up at altitude by 3:00 EST.  Here's the link again:  [url=http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600]http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600 [/url] 



Hopefully we will see some new data points appearing in real-time.  This stronger transmitter has not been recalibrated as-installed for clean output, proper deviation, etc except at the factory, so I am hopeful, but not guaranteeing anything. 



If this works in googlemaps, try clicking the google earth KML feature to see a 3D flight path depiction in real time (will SPOT do that??)



-Stormy



fingers crossed on the Garmin 296, too.

   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
[b]

Larry Bowen

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 802
Location: NC, USA

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: APRS tracking technology as alternative to SPOT

Hang in there.  We're watching...

-- 

Larry Bowen

Larry(at)BowenAero.com (Larry(at)BowenAero.com)

http://BowenAero.com 

  

 

 

 On Jan 20, 2008 4:07 PM, Bill Boyd <sportav8r(at)gmail.com (sportav8r(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]Well, I'm not selling the bicycle shop, that's for dang sure.  Flight to 7200' MSL and not a single ping- something is very wrong.  I'll be back---! 



-Stormy   

 



 On Jan 20, 2008 2:46 PM, Bill Boyd < sportav8r(at)gmail.com (sportav8r(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I'm going to try again, Orville  



The snow is sublimating in the sunshine and 22 degree wind, and I think I can get airborne without packing the wheelpants with slush.  It might be a long downhill takeoff roll, with a 20 knot tailwind, but the landing will be almost a hover.  



I hope to be up at altitude by 3:00 EST.  Here's the link again:  [url=http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600]http://aprs.fi/?call=N30yd&mt=m&z=11&timerange 1600  [/url]



Hopefully we will see some new data points appearing in real-time.  This stronger transmitter has not been recalibrated as-installed for clean output, proper deviation, etc except at the factory, so I am hopeful, but not guaranteeing anything.  



If this works in googlemaps, try clicking the google earth KML feature to see a 3D flight path depiction in real time (will SPOT do that??)



-Stormy



fingers crossed on the Garmin 296, too.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 	
	


[b]

_________________
Larry Bowen
RV-8 SOLD,
RV-7QB in progress...

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