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icrashrc
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In
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 Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: used 912uls |
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I've stumbled across a used 912uls. The owner tells me the engine has less than 50 hours on it. Is there any way to tell from the serial number that
A. it is a uls and not a ul (even i can paint valve covers)
B. the age of the engine (i was told it's a 2004 vintage)
C. that the gearbox is the standard ratio.
D. if it has the updated gearbox clutch that allows for smoother startup and shutdown
I plan on looking closely down the exhaust and intake as well as pulling a few spark plugs. A close look at any fluids is also obviously on my list.
Any and all suggestions that may help keep me from getting shafted would be appreciated. Thank you,
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Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:01 am Post subject: used 912uls |
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> I've stumbled across a used 912uls.
Morning Scott:
Obvious way to see if it is a 912ULS is green valve covers. 912UL has black
valve covers. Of course, valve covers can be painted or swapped, so the
best way is run the serial number of the engine. I'd contact a Rotax
Service Center for that info, Ronnie Smith at South Mississippi Light
Aircraft, Lockwood, or others.
Don't know if the 2004 model 912ULS was produced with the high torque
starter and slipper clutch, but this info can also be obtained from a Rotax
Service Center when running the serial number.
Other than that, I can't think of any other way to verify by outward
appearance.
Probably be a good idea to have a written agreement to the effect that if
the engine is not as advertised, you will get a full and speedy refund of
your money.
Items that should come with the engine (items in a new engine package) are
oil tank, voltage regulator/rectifier, operators manual, installation
manual, and, of course, the little tool bag with a couple wrenches and a
"crank shaft fixing pin" used to lock the crankshaft for certain serious
maintenance procedures.
Good luck with your new engine.
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: used 912uls |
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Scott, I agree with John, plus trying to ascertain if the engine was overheated. See if your Rotax service center can Rockwell hardness test the heads. If they test soft, run away like your feet were aflame. Four new heads for the 912 are now almost $10,000, and that doesn't include installation.
I'd also recommend you remove the oil filter, cut it open and check for metallic debris.
An oil analysis would be a good investment, too.
Rotax engines are built like fine jewelry and it takes very little in the way of mistreatment to do major damage. As an example, the engine we worked on with Eric Tucker had been run for 10 seconds without oil pressure and had a nice big hole in the case where a rod made a hasty departure. The owner had hooked the oil lines up backward.
Last, make the owner pay for all evaluation work. If he balks, be very suspicious.
Rick
On Jan 21, 2008 8:59 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" < jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
> I've stumbled across a used 912uls.
Morning Scott:
Obvious way to see if it is a 912ULS is green valve covers. 912UL has black
valve covers. Of course, valve covers can be painted or swapped, so the
best way is run the serial number of the engine. I'd contact a Rotax
Service Center for that info, Ronnie Smith at South Mississippi Light
Aircraft, Lockwood, or others.
Don't know if the 2004 model 912ULS was produced with the high torque
starter and slipper clutch, but this info can also be obtained from a Rotax
Service Center when running the serial number.
Other than that, I can't think of any other way to verify by outward
appearance.
Probably be a good idea to have a written agreement to the effect that if
the engine is not as advertised, you will get a full and speedy refund of
your money.
Items that should come with the engine (items in a new engine package) are
oil tank, voltage regulator/rectifier, operators manual, installation
manual, and, of course, the little tool bag with a couple wrenches and a
"crank shaft fixing pin" used to lock the crankshaft for certain serious
maintenance procedures.
Good luck with your new engine.
john h
mkIII
[quote][b]
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: used 912uls |
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| jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: |
As an example, the engine we worked on with Eric Tucker had been run for 10 seconds without oil pressure and had a nice big hole in the case where a rod made a hasty departure. The owner had hooked the oil lines up backward.
Last, make the owner pay for all evaluation work. If he balks, be very suspicious.
Rick
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10 seconds without oil pressure is just at the limits for the 912-s after an oil change, but still in limits. I don't believe for a second that a rod went through the case in just 10 seconds of being started without an oil supply. According to the Rotax manual, 10 seconds is where you shut down the engine if you don't get an oil pressure rise.
Someone either got their 3rd hand story wrong, or downright lied about what happened there. Either way, if you knew much about the Rotax 912 engine, you should have known this instead of passing along and putting into writing a BS story that is so obviously wrong.
As far as the tests on the engine, if I were selling the engine, I would not pay to have hardness tested, oil tested, etc. etc. Especially if the price were good, I would tell you to go take a hike and sell to a buyer that was not such a pain in the butt to deal with. Nothing worse than to do business with someone that makes unreasonable demands.
Just like buying an airplane, if you want to get the engine inspected, it is customary for the BUYER to pay the mechanic to do the inspection. If I were the seller, would not pay for inspections, just to have the buyer change his mind and leave me with the inspection bill.
Mike
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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: used 912uls |
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Mike, I spent six days, nine hours a day with Eric Tucker and came away with a deep respect for the depth of his knowledge of the Rotax product line. I imagine John Hauck would say the same.
Per the Rotax Installation Manual 13.6 page 13-5," The oil pressure must rise within 10 seconds to at least 2 bar (30 psi)" This is not the time limit to begin to show a pressure rise, as you claim, this is the time limit to reach minimum operating oil pressure.
On new 4 stroke engines regardless of their usage, I turn them over with the spark plugs out until I get oil pressure. Why risk a dry start when all it takes to insure against it is a little extra time.
Why is this so important and the time so short to see pressure on a Rotax engine? Refer to the Rotax Maintenance Manual II (Heavy Maintenance) Form Sheet for cylinders and pistons, 3)Grading and clearance: the clearance limits for piston to cylinder wall is .0000" to .0009" the absolute wear limit is .0051" for "red" pistons, "green pistons give you an extra .0001" for maximum clearance, but still specify .0000" as the minimum and the wear limit is the same. Consider that a human hair is .003" to .004" thick. These engines are tight. There isn't much room in there for assembly lube, basically it fills the hatch marks from the diamond honing process and that's it.
As I said, Rotax engines are built like fine jewelry, and require more attention to detail because of it.
There are a lot of less than honest people out there making all sorts of claims about what they sell. Just watch the engines that come up on eBay. One of our EAA chapter members bought a 503 with a "new" crank in the recent overhaul. There was no mention of the 3" long weld on the bottom of the of the crankcase. Or the seizure marks on the exhaust side of the pistons. It was junk and the seller was long gone with his money.
A seller who balks at reasonable requests to verify what he claims is not worth dealing with in the first place, IMHO.
Rick
On Jan 22, 2008 1:09 AM, JetPilot < orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" < orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)>
jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote:
| Quote: |
As an example, the engine we worked on with Eric Tucker had been run for 10 seconds without oil pressure and had a nice big hole in the case where a rod made a hasty departure. The owner had hooked the oil lines up backward.
Last, make the owner pay for all evaluation work. If he balks, be very suspicious.
Rick
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10 seconds without oil pressure is just at the limits for the 912-s after an oil change, but still in limits. I don't believe for a second that a rod went through the case in just 10 seconds of being started without an oil supply. According to the Rotax manual, 10 seconds is where you shut down the engine if you don't get an oil pressure rise.
Someone either got their 3rd hand story wrong, or downright lied about what happened there. Either way, if you knew much about the Rotax 912 engine, you should have known this instead of passing along and putting into writing a BS story that is so obviously wrong.
As far as the tests on the engine, if I were selling the engine, I would not pay to have hardness tested, oil tested, etc. etc. Especially if the price were good, I would tell you to go take a hike and sell to a buyer that was not such a pain in the butt to deal with. Nothing worse than to do business with someone that makes unreasonable demands.
Just like buying an airplane, if you want to get the engine inspected, it is customary for the BUYER to pay the mechanic to do the inspection. If I were the seller, would not pay for inspections, just to have the buyer change his mind and leave me with the inspection bill.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
[quote][b]
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: used 912uls |
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| jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: |
Per the Rotax Installation Manual 13.6 page 13-5," The oil pressure must rise within 10 seconds to at least 2 bar (30 psi)"
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Rotax is saying you have 10 seconds to get to minimum oil pressure. If you get no oil pressure rise at all, or if you just get some, you must shut down withing 10 seconds. What Rotax is NOT saying is that you must shut down earlier with no rise at all, they are saying you have 10 seconds PERIOD.
Its written in very plain English. I take them at their word, and am not trying to read something extra into it like you are...
Given that, 10 seconds is within limits, and I don't believe for a second that a 912-S is going to throw a rod 10 seconds after startup just because there was no oil pressure.
I dont care who you spent a week with, or what you have studied, this is just not going to happen according to the Rotax Maintenance manual.
It is pretty obvious to me, as it should have been to you, someone lied, or got their stories mixed up somewhere. Don't believe everything you hear.
Mike
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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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icrashrc
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Mishawaka, In
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:20 am Post subject: Re: used 912uls |
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John, Rick, and Mike,
Thank you for the quick and informative responses. Mark Spencer in Cheektowaga New York returned my original call about his engine on Sunday night. I was at work and had little time to talk. Maybe it was the 18,000 tons of coal pushing me down a hill that had me distracted. Anyway he told me to contact him Monday. I called but no answer so I left a voicemail and emailed a list of basic questions to him. He answered back that it was sold. I assume that means I asked too many questions. At least I found out before the sale what type of person I was dealing with. Thanks again to all that responded. I’ll keep your suggestions for future reference. BTW, know anyone with a new or low time 912uls for sale at a reasonable price?
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_________________
Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: used 912uls |
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Scott, Here's another tip I picked up while attending classes at Lockwood, a cheap way to check prop flange runout. Get a magnetic dial indicator base from Harbor Freight Tools. If you hit one of their specials they're about $7. Unscrew the post from the magnet base, it's the same thread as the bosses for the prop controller on the side of the 912 gear box. Get an inexpensive dial indicator that reads in .0001" increments, Enco Mfg., Penn Tool and MSC have them for about $50. Now you can check the prop flange for both axial and radial runout.
Rick
On Jan 23, 2008 9:20 AM, icrashrc <icrashrc(at)aol.com (icrashrc(at)aol.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "icrashrc" <icrashrc(at)aol.com (icrashrc(at)aol.com)>
John, Rick, and Mike,
Thank you for the quick and informative responses. Mark Spencer in Cheektowaga New York returned my original call about his engine on Sunday night. I was at work and had little time to talk. Maybe it was the 18,000 tons of coal pushing me down a hill that had me distracted. Anyway he told me to contact him Monday. I called but no answer so I left a voicemail and emailed a list of basic questions to him. He answered back that it was sold. I assume that means I asked too many questions. At least I found out before the sale what type of person I was dealing with. Thanks again to all that responded. I'll keep your suggestions for future reference. BTW, know anyone with a new or low time 912uls for sale at a reasonable price?
--------
Scott
www.ill-EagleAviation.com
do not archive
Read this topic online here:
[quote][b]
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: used 912uls |
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Good luck on finding your 912-S, its a great engine. Its expensive, but well worth the money... Reliable and the smoothest running 4 stroke I have ever flown, much less vibration than a 172 or similar plane.
Mike
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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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