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propeller slip clutch

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Mark.Summers(at)lwbref.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:07 am Post subject: propeller slip clutch

My terminology is probably not correct, but does anyone use the slip-clutch on their prop on a 582? I have heard it will allow you to idle lower with less vibration. Looking for pro’s and con’s and where you would buy one. Thanks Mark  

      [quote][b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: Re: propeller slip clutch

Slipper clutch, well on floats they would be an asset. 

yes you can idle your engine lower anytime



BUT  and a BIG BUT   >>  You will gain one  hell of a lot of drag when it is windmilling. 

If you want one, I sell new  ones  I will have to look but I think they about 500$ or so.

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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:45 am Post subject: propeller slip clutch

I have the RK400 clutch on my M2 Mark. Got it from LEAF ($470 then). I installed it for the very reason you cite, to reduce that crazy vibration at idle. It's supposed to engage the prop at about 2400 rpm. My problem is that since install, I haven't been able to adjust idle lower than about 2500. I've tried everything short of a carb mod that was suggested by someone on the list (check the archives for that). 

   

  So, at least for me, it hasn't really done much. Also, in the back of my head lurks the concern that if I ever lose power, the drag created by the windmilling prop will greatly reduce my options. No small consideration. 

   

  When I do my 300 hr rebuild, I'll probably pull it out and sell it.



"Summers, Mark" <Mark.Summers(at)lwbref.com> wrote:

  [quote]              My terminology is probably not correct, but does anyone use the slip-clutch on their prop on a 582? I have heard it will allow you to idle lower with less vibration. Looking for pro’s and con’s and where you would buy one. Thanks Mark<?xml:namespace    [quote][b]

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: propeller slip clutch

I have done tests with my Model IV-1200 using 912ULS with engine at idle and with prop stopped.  Would have to take a lot more care at measurements to see much difference.  Plan on doing that.  Clint

  	  Quote: 	
		    Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 11:40:20 -0800

From: msm_9949(at)yahoo.com

Subject: Re: propeller slip clutch

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 I have the RK400 clutch on my M2 Mark. Got it from LEAF ($470 then). I installed it for the very reason you cite, to reduce that crazy vibration at idle. It's supposed to engage the prop at about 2400 rpm. My problem is that since install, I haven't been able to adjust idle lower than about 2500. I've tried everything short of a carb mod that was suggested by someone on the list (check the archives for that). 

 So, at least for me, it hasn't really done much. Also, in the back of my head lurks the concern that if I ever lose power, the drag created by the windmilling prop will greatly reduce my options. No small consideration. 

 When I do my 300 hr rebuild, I'll probably pull it out and sell it.

"Summers, Mark" <Mark.Summers(at)lwbref.com> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		    .ExternalClass EC_p.MsoNormal, .ExternalClass EC_li.MsoNormal, .ExternalClass EC_div.MsoNormal {margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman';} .ExternalClass a:link, .ExternalClass EC_span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass a:visited, .ExternalClass EC_span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} .ExternalClass EC_span.EmailStyle17 {font-family:Arial;color:windowtext;} (at)page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in;} .ExternalClass EC_div.Section1 {page:Section1;}     My terminology is probably not correct, but does anyone use the slip-clutch on their prop on a 582? I have heard it will allow you to idle lower with less vibration. Looking for pro’s and con’s and where you would buy one. Thanks Mark 	  Quote: 	

arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

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LarryM

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Genoa, IL

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: propeller slip clutch

Could there be a reason why your 582 is idling rough?  I use a 2 blade Culver 76" prop with a 3:1 C box.  I can idle clear down to 1400 rpm with no bad vibrations.  (in the winter)I've been as low as 1000 running smooth.  Mind you this is not routine, and it happened with a preheated  engine, and an air temp of about 15-20F.  I'm still trying to figure out the "perfect" idle mixture, but form my experience, I think suggested the idle jet is way rich.  I am currently using #45 ( 55 is the "book" figure), and it idles much better in the winter than summer.  I know that the Rotax idle is suppose to be 2000, but I thought that is in consideration of the A or B box, not engine.  (I always set 2000 to let it warm up.)  This summer, if it doesn't idle as nice as it does now, I plan to get a smaller idler jet.

  Hoping to provoke thought.......



larry

chenoweth(at)gwi.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: propeller slip clutch

Larry,

I am using a 45 idle jet also but can't get the engine to idle as smoothly 

as you have.  I've found that there is a big impact of midrange set-up on 

idle.  In order to keep the egts in line in the winter I run fairly rich in 

the mid range and suffer with a fairly poor idle.  In that context I'm 

motivated to ask you what you are using for needle, needle clip position, 

and needle jet.

Bill

IV-1200

Blue head 582

---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: propeller slip clutch

At 08:04 AM 2/2/2008, you wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  My terminology is probably not correct, but does anyone use the slip-clutch on their prop on a 582? I have heard it will allow you to idle lower with less vibration. Looking for pro’s and con’s and where you would buy one. Thanks Mark 	


         Love it. All pro and no con so far, though it's a little bit of a hassle if it's blowing hard. Just make sure you use a spinner so you can get out and stop it without killing yourself. Then you can lash it down. Today I had a bit of fun with it. One of our flight of 5, a Cessna 170, had a dead battery so they had to hand prop it in front of the restaurant. Once they got it going I ran up to my Kitfox and gave the prop a mighty heave, (with no one inside, of course,) and it looked like it started. A couple of Bonanza drivers parked next to me nearly soiled their shorts. I got a good laugh out of it.

         I've only got 210 hours so far so I can't speak to the longevity, but so far I wouldn't be without it.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: propeller slip clutch

At 11:40 AM 2/2/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  So, at least for me, it hasn't really done much. Also, in the back 

of my head lurks the concern that if I ever lose power, the drag 

created by the windmilling prop will greatly reduce my options. No 

small consideration.


	


         Not sure about the carb problem. That's a stumper, assuming 

you've tried all the obvious. What I've found with the clutch is that 

if I pull to idle during a descent, the clutch stays engaged and the 

prop drives the engine. (Got to watch that EGT!) The only way to get 

the clutch to disengage is to slow down until the engine drops below 

2400. Then the engine will drop to idle, (1500,) and the prop will 

wind up like crazy. I'm not sure what would happen in an engine out, 

but I'm betting the clutch would eventually disengage and I'd get the 

drag. One nice thing about my Kitfox is that the minimum sink occurs 

at a very slow 45-55mph. (The curve is almost flat from stall to 

55mph.) The prop will make less of a difference there.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:27 am Post subject: Re: propeller slip clutch

 	  Quote: 	
		   One nice thing about my Kitfox is that the minimum sink occurs 

at a very slow 45-55mph. (The curve is almost flat from stall to 

55mph.) The prop will make less of a difference there. 	


Guy,  It would be a good test to try some dead sticking with that prop/clutch combo.  I would best that you will get a faster decent rate with mags off totally dead stock.  once you  kill the mags just pull up nose to about 40 mph or so till the clutch dis-engages or you might have to stall it . I have never tried with a clutch setup but I only guessing .   



One more drawback of the clutch as you stated in previous post is that you cannot handprop.  I handprop alot when cold out as the started needs to spin about 270 rpm to get the ducati ignition to trigger a spark. at 250 rpm it will not fire. With  the 3 to 1 box  it will fire with handprop alot better I find.

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: propeller slip clutch

Larry, at 650' msl my 582 idled rough also.  The factory supplied #55 is 

just too much jet for the idle and when I spoke with Gerry at Greensky 

Adventures, he said it was a common problem and to go with the #45 which 

fixed the problem permanently--year round.  I suspect at higher altitudes an 

even smaller jet would be better.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert





---

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:56 am Post subject: propeller slip clutch

About the slip clutch,  there was one posted for sale on Barnstormers 2 days ago.  Look under experiments.  Jim Chuk,  Avid MK IV, Jab,  Mn

[quote] From: fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: propeller slip clutch

 Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:58:14 -0500

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>

 Larry, at 650' msl my 582 idled rough also. The factory supplied #55 is 

 just too much jet for the idle and when I spoke with Gerry at Greensky 

 Adventures, he said it was a common problem and to go with the #45 which 

 fixed the problem permanently--year round. I suspect at higher altitudes an 

 even smaller jet would be better.

 Deke Morisse

 Mikado Michigan

 S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT

 "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

 - Joseph Joubert

 ---

thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: propeller slip clutch

Sorry about the spelling,  look in experimentals   

do not archive

 [quote]  From: thesupe(at)hotmail.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: propeller slip clutch

Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 18:51:40 +0000

   .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_body.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}  About the slip clutch,  there was one posted for sale on Barnstormers 2 days ago.  Look under experiments.  Jim Chuk,  Avid MK IV, Jab,  Mn

[quote] From: fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: propeller slip clutch

 Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:58:14 -0500

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "fox5flyer" <fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>

 Larry, at 650' msl my 582 idled rough also. The factory supplied #55 is 

 just too much jet for the idle and when I spoke with Gerry at Greensky 

 Adventures, he said it was a common problem and to go with the #45 which 

 fixed the problem permanently--year round. I suspect at higher altitudes an 

 even smaller jet would be better.

 Deke Morisse

 Mikado Michigan

 S5/Subaru/CAP 355+ TT

 "The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

 - Joseph Joubert

 ---

LarryM

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Genoa, IL

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: propeller slip clutch

I "think" that I am jetted as follows: 165 main, 2.72 mid, 45 idle, clip #4, standard book needle.  850' msl Winter OATs  10F  EGT 1075-1110 at 50-6000 rpm.  Summer same except clip #3.  I say "think" because the clip position would normally be at 4 this time of year, but I didn't write it down.  The other jets are definite.



  I always find the idle mixture difficult to adjust - I can never hear a difference.  I usually just tweak it as the oat  temps warm up.  (robotically) This year I'm going to try just switching to a 40 jet, leaving the mixture screw as they are, as the 45 runs great when real cold.  The digital egt gauge reads with 25F from idle on up.



larry

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: propeller slip clutch

I have been flying my brothers KF with the clutch and it is the shiznit.  On floats it is great as it does not try to run away from the dock / beach during warm up. A buddy has a B box on his Avid and it is alot rougher at idle especially when cold.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

chenoweth(at)gwi.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:21 am Post subject: propeller slip clutch

Larry,

My jetting is the same as your except for a 2.74 with the needle in the 

fourth slot.  I tried a 40 idle jet and couldn't keep the engine running at 

idle so went back to 45.  My arrangement produces an ok idle at about 2000 

when the temps are in the 20s or lower.  In flight I'm getting about 1100 at 

these OATs.  Since I'm using the cheap analog EGT gauges I really have no 

clear idea what the temps are other than I hope I'm seeing something within 

100 degrees of what really is (the plugs look good).  I'm operating from OWK 

in Maine which is 270 msl.  I end up having to change main, needle clip, and 

needle jet each major season change (not to mention the inevitable prop 

pitch change) and I find it a real pain.  There are some two-stroke people 

here who don't change anything ever and seem to do fine.  So I'm hoping that 

when I install a 912S this summer at least this sort of problem will go away 

(to be replaced with problems as yet unknown, I suppose).

Bill

IV-1200

---

LarryM

Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
Location: Genoa, IL

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Re: propeller slip clutch

Bill.



  I wonder why you need to change so much with the season?  We go from a density altitude of about minus 1500' to plus 3000'.  I only have to change the clip position, and I'm trying for a better summer idle.  I have a fixed pitch prop.  It's funny how they idle better at 20F than at the summer temps.  That leads me to believe that it is too rich in the summer.  Perhaps the #40 is too small and can be adjusted by the mixture screws?  



larry

chenoweth(at)gwi.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: propeller slip clutch

Larry,

I have wondered the very same thing for the four years I've been using this 

engine.  I've had conversations with just about everyone including Lockwood 

and other experts with no luck.  When I changed from a GSC 3 blade to an IVO 

medium two blade most of my problems with high midrange egts went away which 

left me with just the seasonal stuff.  I strongly suspect that the 

instrumentation (Westach) is not helping.  You may know that the 

temperatures seen on these EGT gauges are based on a temperature of 75 

degrees at the back of the instrument.  This makes for uncertainty given the 

cold winter temps around here coupled with the changing temp behind the 

panel during normal operation.

Regarding the 40.  During the brief period I tried the 40 I tried to fix the 

too lean idle condition with idle air screw adjustments.  Didn't work very 

well so that's why I went back to 45.

Bill

---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: propeller slip clutch

When you say the plugs look good,  What colour are they? 

Running at 1100 F with the needle on bottom clip at 20 F ?  What RPM is that at ? 

What do you get static with the IVO Med and what is your WIDE open Throttle RPM ? 



Dave 



 	  Quote: 	
		  Larry, 

My jetting is the same as your except for a 2.74 with the needle in the 

fourth slot. I tried a 40 idle jet and couldn't keep the engine running at 

idle so went back to 45. My arrangement produces an ok idle at about 2000 

when the temps are in the 20s or lower. In flight I'm getting about 1100 at 

these OATs. Since I'm using the cheap analog EGT gauges I really have no 

clear idea what the temps are other than I hope I'm seeing something within 

100 degrees of what really is (the plugs look good). I'm operating from OWK 

in Maine which is 270 msl. I end up having to change main, needle clip, and 

needle jet each major season change (not to mention the inevitable prop 

pitch change) and I find it a real pain. There are some two-stroke people 

here who don't change anything ever and seem to do fine. So I'm hoping that 

when I install a 912S this summer at least this sort of problem will go away 

(to be replaced with problems as yet unknown, I suppose). 

Bill 

IV-1200

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