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Replace Needle?

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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:31 pm Post subject: Replace Needle?

All 582 drivers, past and present,

         I'm doing my 150 hour check and the book says I should 

change the needles and needle jets. Should I? Or does this date back 

to the days before the needle O-rings? Do these wear out from 

vibration? Anything else I should change out at 150 hours?



Thanks,

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Replace Needle?

Hi Guy,



Might be a few different opinions here, but really there should be only one which is follow the maint. schedule.

 Yes they can incur wear from the motion of the needle going up and down in the main jet. All I can say here is that some people do replace them at the specified time schedule and some don't ever replace them. The ones who don't replace them don't seem to have any major issues, but I'm sure with enough hours of use the fuel economy and anything associated with the fuel system must suffer a little. I just rebuilt my Bing type 64 carbs at 200 hrs. and the kit included all the "O" rings, needles, main jet, needle shut off valve and bowl gasket. Is your total time on the engine only 150 hrs. or do you have more?

 Doing the work is really quite easy. When you chose to fly I'm sure you intended to do the right maint. to keep you in the air and safe.



I believe in doing the right maint. and then you can't go wrong.

P.S.

If it came right down to it, my personal experience says that they would be ok, but would at least do them next time, but this is just my personal thought and you should do what you believe is right for you.

It's your hide not ours.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: Replace Needle?

At 07:41 AM 2/1/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Is your total time on the engine only 150 hrs. or do you have more?


	


         TT is about 210 hours. Interestingly my manual says nothing 

about rebuilding, it just says to clean and adjust every 50 hours, 

and to replace the needle and jet every 150 hours. I guess it's 

reasonable to assume the 150 hour replacement would come with a rebuild kit.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Replace Needle?

Hi Guy,



Your 582 rebuild kit comes with less parts and is cheaper. Your 2 stroke carb is a snap to rebuild. If you are going to take it apart you might as well use the rebuild kit and replace any "O" rings. With 210 hrs. it might not be a bad idea to just do it and be done with it. It will keep the engine healthier and you happier in the long run.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: Replace Needle?

I just rebuilt the carbs on my 912 yesterday, and I replaced the

needle and the jet, but I do not think it was necessary.  Now I have a

spare pair that will probably last forever.  I do believe it was

necessary to replace the O - rings and most of all the diaphragms and

the gaskets and the float needles.  Next time I will just order the

kit that contains these items.  These items were all showing their age

at 120 hours, and there was enough dirt to warrant a good disassembly

and cleaning.  I was not having any problems.  The only difficult part

was removing and replacing the throttle butterfly valve, because the

screws are peaned over to prevent them from getting loose and sucked

into the engine.  Peaning over the new ones and getting the throttle

assembly to operate correctly took some careful work.  I ended up

using a small vice grips to pinch the screws to get the ends of the

threads peaned over without hammering.   How have others done this?



Jack



On Jan 31, 2008 10:28 PM, Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 All 582 drivers, past and present,

          I'm doing my 150 hour check and the book says I should

 change the needles and needle jets. Should I? Or does this date back

 to the days before the needle O-rings? Do these wear out from

 vibration? Anything else I should change out at 150 hours?



 Thanks,

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:03 am Post subject: Replace Needle?

Jack Kuehn a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I just rebuilt the carbs on my 912 yesterday,.....


	


 	  Quote: 	
		     These items were all showing their age

 at 120 hours,

Hi all,
	




Just to say I am a bit astonished to hear some of you guys are in need 

of rebuilding their 912 carbs after such a short time as 120-200 hours.

Did you experience any particular trouble ?

In my area, the Rotax gurus advise a carb overhaul at engine midlife, ie 

600 hrs.

We have about 180 hrs on our 914 engine, and it runs like new. One of my 

buddies has just rebuilt his carbs at 780 hrs, and only the float bowl 

needle valves showed signs of wear.



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:59 am Post subject: Replace Needle?

The only time you need to replace the butterfly on the Bing 64 is if  

it is loose, damaged or the shaft is worn out. I've never replaced one  

on any of the 64s I've rebuilt. The last ones I serviced were on a  

Std. Category Katana with 912F which had well over 2,000 hours on it  

(engine had not been overhauled or replaced) with zero carb. service  

in the log book. It was way way past carb service time and had some  

serious starting and running problems due to lack of carb. service.  

The butterfly valves were in fine shape. After servicing and balancing  

the carbs. it ran like a sewing machine.



Thom in Buffalo

http://riddletr.googlepages.com/a%26pmechanix

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: Replace Needle?

The Bing Carb manual says very clearly to replace the diaphragms

yearly.  I think you are right about the needle and jet, but the float

valve and the diaphragm should be replaced BEFORE any problem is

encountered, and while you are in there, you might as well replace the

O-rings!  It is good to know you are able to go for so long, perhaps

the Bing folks are feathering their own nest!

Jack

On Feb 2, 2008 4:00 AM, Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-grenoble.fr> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Jack Kuehn a écrit :

 > 

 >

 > I just rebuilt the carbs on my 912 yesterday,.....

 >   These items were all showing their age

 > at 120 hours,

 Hi all,

 Just to say I am a bit astonished to hear some of you guys are in need

 of rebuilding their 912 carbs after such a short time as 120-200 hours.

 Did you experience any particular trouble ?

 In my area, the Rotax gurus advise a carb overhaul at engine midlife, ie

 600 hrs.

 We have about 180 hrs on our 914 engine, and it runs like new. One of my

 buddies has just rebuilt his carbs at 780 hrs, and only the float bowl

 needle valves showed signs of wear.

 Best regards,

 --

 Gilles

 http://contrails.free.fr

-- 

Jack Kuehn

5565 Brady Ln

Lolo, MT USA 59847

(406)273-6801

(406)546-1086 cell

jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com

(406)273-2563 fax

Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: Replace Needle?

Jack Kuehn a écrit :

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 The Bing Carb manual says very clearly to replace the diaphragms

 yearly.  


	


The advice I got is change the diaphragm every two to four years, 

whatever the flight hours.



 	  Quote: 	
		    It is good to know you are able to go for so long, perhaps

 the Bing folks are feathering their own nest!


	


Maybe 



Best regards,

-- 

Gilles

http://contrails.free.fr

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Replace Needle?

Hi Guys,



Rebuild times usually can be found in your operating handbook or scheduled maint. time table book. My book says rebuild at 200 hrs. I do agree that they were probably ok, but mine is an SLSA and I have a fairly strict time table for inspections.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

l_luv2_fly(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:46 pm Post subject: Replace Needle?

Hi All,



Well I had my 914 carbs overhauled at 650 hours by Lockwood Aviation in November.  I did this because according to the manual they were long over due, but the engine was running quite nicely.



To me honest, I sincerely regret messing with it.  It took me about 4 goes at trying to get the turbo manifolds sealed up again, I was messing with it for ages before I could get full boost at 10,000'.  Even now it is running richer than before and using more fuel and I am probably going to have to mess with the needle position to get then working properly again.



There is a lot to be said for, "if it ain't broke don't fix it".  I can say for sure I will not be rebuilding in  another 200 hours time.



Just my 2 cents worth



Paul

Europa N378PJ

http://www.europa.net.nz/363/index.html





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