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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: offstring forward pass

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Last edited by ashontz on Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:46 am; edited 2 times in total

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Aileron Fit

Add a shim between the rib flange and the skin, about .040" should do it.

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:59 pm Post subject: Aileron Fit

Andy



 Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your photos, but it looks to me like the 20-mm flange at the top of the front skin is bent out away from the aileron. In my kit (and in dwg. 6-W-2), the flange is bent inward and encloses the ribs. The attached photo shows the inboard end of my right aileron, so you can judge the fit I on mine.



 Terry



 

 At 05:15 PM 1/29/2008 -0800, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Just finished up bending the skin for one of my ailerons. Just wanted people's opinions on the fit of the rib to the skin and the joint where the hinge attaches. The rib appears to be about 1mm under.



 The picture with no clamps is before I fiddled with the rib flanges to make then exactly 90 degrees. 	
 

 

 Terry Phillips

 ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

 Corvallis MT

 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings

 http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/     [quote][b]

_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

Terry Phillips

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 346
Location: Corvallis, MT

Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: Aileron Fit

Andy



 Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your photos, but it looks to me like the 20-mm flange at the top of the front skin is bent out away from the aileron. In my kit (and in dwg. 6-W-2), the flange is bent inward and encloses the ribs. The attached photo shows the inboard end of my right aileron, so you can judge the fit I on mine.



 Whoops--here is the attachment.



 Terry



 

 At 05:15 PM 1/29/2008 -0800, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Just finished up bending the skin for one of my ailerons. Just wanted people's opinions on the fit of the rib to the skin and the joint where the hinge attaches. The rib appears to be about 1mm under.



 The picture with no clamps is before I fiddled with the rib flanges to make then exactly 90 degrees. 	
 

 

 Terry Phillips

 ttp44~at~rkymtn.net

 Corvallis MT

 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail, flaps, & ailerons are done; working on the wings

 http://www.mykitlog.com/N47TP/

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_________________
Terry Phillips
Corvallis, MT
ttp44<at>rkymtn.net
Zenith 601XL/Jab 3300 slow build kit - Tail feathers done; working on the wings.

Afterfxllc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: Aileron Fit

That's the way you build it for the hinged version. I assume that's what he  is doing. If he wasn't he can now LOL

  

  

 Jeff



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Fit

Yup, I'm making the hinged ailerons.



[quote="Afterfxllc(at)aol.com"]That's the way you build it for the hinged version. I assume that's what he  is doing. If he wasn't he can now LOL

  

  

 Jeff



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Fit

 	  Ron Lendon wrote: 	
		  Add a shim between the rib flange and the skin, about .040" should do it. 	




Thanks Ron, I may do that. I thought about remaking the rib form and ribs, but this sounds easier. Just wanted to see if anyone else encountered this alignment. May again be due to my router taking off just a little more of the form edge than it should do to the fact that to rout the edge the ball bearing needs to ride the edge of the form and when the form has an 80 degree edge instead of a 90 degree edge it'll take a little extra off, like about an extra mm. I tried to compensate for this by putting a shrink tube spacer on the router bearing to 'build it up' a bit, but it's still taking off a little extra. Just wanted to see if it was ok as is or if I should do something about it.



The effect is more pronounced on smaller pieces like this. Oddly enough, I had no problems with the flaps. As you can see with the clamps off the skin came out spot on, if anything you'd expect the larger piece to come out slightly 'off'. I've been having pretty good luck with my larger brake in that respect.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Fit

Now that I think about it, I'm probably just going to remake the ribs. Didn't take that long. Probably be easier than dealing with shims and whatnot. Plus, no point in adding weight when I can just back up, spend an hour and redo them the right way from the word go.



How are other people making their forms and putting the 1.8 radius on them. The way I'm doing it is layout the measurements, then cut on the bandsaw with the 10 degree springback angle, then route. But as I've explained before, routing with a bit that has a bearing on it actually cuts a little more than it should making the form ever so slightly undersized. Problem is, the router in the router table isn't any help either because the pointed edge changes dimension as you rout. If the angle was 90 degrees it'd be ok either way, router freehand or in the router table. Is anyone here cutting the form out with 90 degree sides, routing, AND THEN putting the springback angle in? That seems like the way to do it for perfect dimension sake, but then you run the risk of taking too much off the form in any given spot.

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dfmoeller

Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Austin, TX

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Fit

Andy,



Having been there; done that, I can vouch that the sequence you describe is backwards.  I found this out by experience!  The correct sequence is this:



1.  Cut your forming blocks to rough size first. 

2.  Sand to the desired dimension second.

3.  Put the radius on the block with a router as you describe third.

4.  Then, mark the block 10 mm down from the top on the sides and sand the springback angle into the block up to the mark you just made as the final step.



The above sequence ensures that the router roller is resting on the dimension that is actually desired.  The reverse sequence puts the roller on a somewhat smaller dimension, resulting in a slight smaller finished part than desired.  I learned this by viewing the Homebuilt Help video after I made the first set of aileron and flap forming blocks.  I wish I'd viewed it before.



Doug

 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  

How are other people making their forms and putting the 1.8 radius on them. The way I'm doing it is layout the measurements, then cut on the bandsaw with the 10 degree springback angle, then route. But as I've explained before, routing with a bit that has a bearing on it actually cuts a little more than it should making the form ever so slightly undersized. Problem is, the router in the router table isn't any help either because the pointed edge changes dimension as you rout. If the angle was 90 degrees it'd be ok either way, router freehand or in the router table. Is anyone here cutting the form out with 90 degree sides, routing, AND THEN putting the springback angle in? That seems like the way to do it for perfect dimension sake, but then you run the risk of taking too much off the form in any given spot.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Fit

I'm going to try making a spacer collar for router bit bearing to make up the difference and push the router bit back to where it's supposed to be. The procedure you described is overly time consuming and prone to error in my opinion, albeit it does take into account 'the problem'. If anyone is interested I can make them one of these router bearing spacer collars for $10.



Seems like sanding after the fact, you run the risk of possibly taking off too much plus it's just overly tedious and time consuming for something that a power tool setup should do for you.



 	  dfmoeller wrote: 	
		  Andy,



Having been there; done that, I can vouch that the sequence you describe is backwards.  I found this out by experience!  The correct sequence is this:



1.  Cut your forming blocks to rough size first. 

2.  Sand to the desired dimension second.

3.  Put the radius on the block with a router as you describe third.

4.  Then, mark the block 10 mm down from the top on the sides and sand the springback angle into the block up to the mark you just made as the final step.



The above sequence ensures that the router roller is resting on the dimension that is actually desired.  The reverse sequence puts the roller on a somewhat smaller dimension, resulting in a slight smaller finished part than desired.  I learned this by viewing the Homebuilt Help video after I made the first set of aileron and flap forming blocks.  I wish I'd viewed it before.



Doug

 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  

How are other people making their forms and putting the 1.8 radius on them. The way I'm doing it is layout the measurements, then cut on the bandsaw with the 10 degree springback angle, then route. But as I've explained before, routing with a bit that has a bearing on it actually cuts a little more than it should making the form ever so slightly undersized. Problem is, the router in the router table isn't any help either because the pointed edge changes dimension as you rout. If the angle was 90 degrees it'd be ok either way, router freehand or in the router table. Is anyone here cutting the form out with 90 degree sides, routing, AND THEN putting the springback angle in? That seems like the way to do it for perfect dimension sake, but then you run the risk of taking too much off the form in any given spot.

bill_dom(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:19 am Post subject: Aileron Fit

I do. Here is the order that I'm following for making my blocks:



- Cut the block slightly oversize to the cutting line with a jigsaw.



- Sand down to cutting line with a bench sander with the bed at 90 degrees.



- Round out the edge for proper bending radius  using  a moto-tool and with a 1/8 routing bit. There is no reduction in size.



- Create the 11 degrees spring back with the bench sander with the bed positioned at 11 degrees. Here I have to be careful because there is the possibility to over-sand but it is not difficult get it right.



- Create the relief for the crimps using a regular router with a 45 degree trimming bit. 

William Dominguez

Zodiac 601 XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message  posted by: "ashontz" 



Now that I think about it, I'm probably just going to remake the ribs. Didn't take that long. Probably be easier than dealing with shims and whatnot. Plus, no point in adding weight when I can just back up, spend an hour and redo them the right way from the word go.



How are other people making their forms and putting the 1.8 radius on them. The way I'm doing it is layout the measurements, then cut on the bandsaw with the 10 degree springback angle, then route. But as I've explained before, routing with a bit that has a bearing on it actually cuts a little more than it should making the form ever so slightly undersized. Problem is, the router in the router table isn't any help either because the pointed edge changes dimension as you rout. If the angle was 90 degrees it'd be ok either way, router freehand or in the router table. Is anyone here cutting the form out with 90 degree sides, routing, AND THEN putting the [quote][b]

John Bolding

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 281

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: Aileron Fit

I cut out the forms (I use oak)while right and left are bolted together on 

the bandsaw, close to the line,  next is the disc sander with the table at O 

degrees, sand to the line, separate the  forms,   blacken the edges with 

spray paint or markalot, set the disc sander table to 10 degrees or your 

favorite # and sand carefully until you have a uniform band of black 

remaining on the edge,  THEN hand sand the edge that forms the radius , 

leaving 1/8"-3/16" of black band all around the form.  Built a few dozen 

form blocks using this method,  try some scrap first.  MANY other ways to do 

it as well.   John





 Is anyone here cutting the form out with 90 degree sides, routing, AND THEN 

putting the springback angle in? That seems like the way to do it for 

perfect dimension sake, but then you run the risk of taking too much off the 

form in any given spot.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 --------

 Andy Shontz

Aerolitellc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: Aileron Fit

Andy if you have a router table it can be done using the proper bits and  setting your table at the proper angles and if your table doesn't tilt you can  make a angled template to run the form on. I have to agree with Doug and the  steps he outlined. Or you could just buy a mill.



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

  [quote][b]

Jugle

Joined: 04 Aug 2007
Posts: 47
Location: Victoria, Australia

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: Aileron Fit

Hi Andy,



 	  ashontz wrote: 	
		  

How are other people making their forms and putting the 1.8 radius on them. 	




Yep, I also did it in reverse to the way you describe-

-Rough cut the form

-Sand it to final dimensions on the disc sander at 90 degrees

-Rout the 1/8" round

-Run a marking gauge or pencil line right around the edge of the round

-Angle the sander table to 10 degrees, and carefully sand to the line... this is tricky as you have to stand right over the table to see, in good light, but if you take your time it works okay.



If I still had access to a spindle moulder, I would have used a sleeve with 10 degree blades in it to cut the springback angle.



Glenn

_________________
Glenn Andressen
601XL- Rudder, Stabiliser parts completed, Wing ribs, nose ribs done, 70% Fuselage parts made.

agustafson(at)chartermi.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:51 pm Post subject: Aileron Fit

I think I made three sets of ribs for ailerons (& one new aileron too), the 

last set after the skins were bent. I did not use form blocks but only cut 

out a pattern for tracing and bent them on the brake and finished with some 

home made hand forming pliers(cheap harbor freight pliers with some 1/8" 

plate brazed on).



You kit guys really miss out on a lot of fun. I made 3 ailerons, 2 rudders, 

3 wing fuel tanks, and lots of small parts twice. Educational project? You 

bet. I'm sure I made FAA happy in that regard! do not archive



Aaron G.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Now that I think about it, I'm probably just going to remake the ribs. 

 Didn't take that long. Probably be easier than dealing with shims and 

 whatnot. Plus, no point in adding weight when I can just back up, spend an 

 hour and redo them the right way from the word go.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   How are other people making their forms and putting the 1.8 radius on 

 them.

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Aileron Fit

The other way to make the skin is use the ribs for the measurements when making the bends.  Come on it's only an air deflector

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: Aileron Fit

back when I did that for a living, that was the way we always did it: cut and file the form block to precise footprint, file/work the radius, file/grind/sand/saw the springback compensation angle tangent to the radius circle. Note that you end up having to advance the radius over to the tangent face of the springback relief.



Sounds like a lot of work - but the parts always fit precisely at assembly...



ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 



Now that I think about it, I'm probably just going to remake the ribs. Didn't take that long. Probably be easier than dealing with shims and whatnot. Plus, no point in adding weight when I can just back up, spend an hour and redo them the right way from the word go.



How are other people making their forms and putting  the 1.8 radius on them. The way I'm doing it is layout the measurements, then cut on the bandsaw with the 10 degree springback angle, then route. But as I've explained before, routing with a bit that has a bearing on it actually cuts a little more than it should making the form ever so slightly undersized. Problem is, the router in the router table isn't any help either because the pointed edge changes dimension as you rout. If the angle was 90 degrees it'd be ok either way, router freehand or in the router table. Is anyone here cutting the form out with 90 degree sides, routing, AND THEN putting the springback angle in? That seems like the way to do it for perfect dimension sake, but then you run the risk of taking too much off the form in any given spot.



--------

Andy Shontz

CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





Read this topic online       Be a better friend, newshound, and  [quote][b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:11 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Fit

hey, that's a good idea, a 10 degree wedge on a router table. I like that.



I have a router table, I just didn't think to try a wedge. Good idea.



I'm not keen on the idea of having to go back and sand the 10 degree angle into the form after it's already been cut. Seems like that should be one step in an of itself and the routering should be one step. The wedge idea would work well.



[quote="Aerolitellc(at)aol.com"]Andy if you have a router table it can be done using the proper bits and  setting your table at the proper angles and if your table doesn't tilt you can  make a angled template to run the form on. I have to agree with Doug and the  steps he outlined. Or you could just buy a mill.



Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape in the new year. 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Aileron Fit

 	  Ron Lendon wrote: 	
		  The other way to make the skin is use the ribs for the measurements when making the bends.  Come on it's only an air deflector 	




Yeah, I've done that one other parts. This time around I made the ribs first. I also thought about putting one of the ribs back in the form and then forming a new rib around the rib in the form and see if that gives a little better fit, super-size the new rib slightly.

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