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sales(at)billandruth.net
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 Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:08 am Post subject: Building update for kit #49 in Tucson |
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Hi Buz,
Thanks for your input. The last kit manual I worked with was that of the Kitfox model 7 and it was a quick build version also. The manual was quite explicit.
Time management is very important in the build process and there are always things you can do if you are stymied with something else. I have worked in quite a number of areas and I will list them for you here and the problems I had to resolve.
Fuselage: sanded and join seams filled, windows holes cut out and gel coat removed for window bonding with the new formed windows (very nice). No updated manual info on installing these new windows. Will hold off installing these until very close to painting as they are very easily scratched or marred. Created and Installed the brackets for the mid elevator bell crank and recommend that the aluminum elevator trim hook be formed and installed at this time so you won't need to remove it later in the build process where it is currently called for in the build manual.
Wings: installed wing tip vents, called about which way the 45 degree bevel should face regarding the relative wind. Glued and floxed them in and then read that the guidance provided by my dealer was incorrect and had to redo them. My dealer tries very hard to be helpful but, this time he didn't get it right. Have installed the gas caps and the fuel sending units. The sending units where the first installed in the field with the new larger tanks and they have a baffle that isn't placed consistently within the tank and the hole that they must pass through in the baffle was not placed at the same point in each tank. So I spent lots of hours carefully bending the probes to get them installed properly. They are in now and when current is applied appear to work OK.
Rudder install: Put the bearings in the rudder brackets and installed them in the vertical stab. This was a very time consuming process with a great deal of trial and error. You are working in a very limited access area and it is extremely difficult to mark the position of the holes for drilling in the stab spar. However, the rudder is installed and centered perfectly in the vertical spar and swings back and forth like greased lightning (pun intended). However, the bolt and castle nut combination is problematic for the lower hinge bolt install as one size bolt is too short and the other too long so this will need to be worked out in the final install. Swidged fittings on the rudder cables are stressed were the cable meets the fitting during side to side rudder movement. This is because there is no moveable bearing at the rudder cable attach point. I have not been able to find a suitable bearing to mitigate this issue.
Spar Box Install: This was accomplished after seemingly countless wings on wings off efforts. The incidence on the wings are within a tenth of a degree (digital level) and the wings match up well with the fuselage wing fillets except on the center upper edge of the right wing were the wing had to be built up with bondo. I have elected to drill and tap each of the incidence washers with 4 6-32 stainless machine screws as I did not like the stainless steel pop rivets for securing them at the wing attach point. We had one builder in Tucson who had a problem with this mounting method because the rivets pulled out and the washer could not be tightened or unscrewed. He had to cut a hole in the wing so he could grab the washer. Right wing is .25 inches longer than the left wing but Arion says this is OK. Gear legs needed to be sanded after removing and sanding inside of spar box mounting tubes. They are still a very tight fit. They require future work to get them right.
Stab install: brackets installed and stab installed into them and bolted securely. Bolts installed from inside the stab. Left stab is .25 inches longer than the right stab. Stab is installed 90 degrees to the vertical fin and dead level with the wings. Stab incidence is equal on both sides and lies at .4 degrees positive. No incidence setting enumerated in the build manual. Stab in prepped for bonding to the fuselage. Stab incidence bolts come in contact with seat belt cables as they lie in the same plain with each other. However, I don't believe this to be an issue.
Rudder pedal and master cylinder install: Completed. Rudder cable bracket holes had to be moved as the rudder cables rubbed across each other or the bottom of the spar box after they were initially installed. Would recommend that these holes be drilled after you determine the clearance issues related to the spar and nylon guides for the rudder pedals are determined. This is a two person process. One person puts tension on the cables after they pass through the guides while the other marks the hole in the firewall flange at its required spacing from the center of the fuselage carefully noting where they need to be placed so that they don't touch the spar or each other.
Elevator and push rod install: Hinges on stab and aligned after cutting and drilling them. Elevator hinges attached to elevators. Holes go through fiberglass and then a metal backer inside the elevator. Have fabricated the elevator push/pull tube and installed same to mid elevator bell crank. Have installed the elevator bell crank twice and its still not right. Either the rudder rubs on the cross tube part of the bell crank or the bell crank elevator horn rubs on the rudder. I did not recognize that the rudder is designed to rub up against the sides of the vertical fin and that they form the physical stop to limit rudder travel. This is not the case with the elevator pitch control module which has physical stops installed. Seems like there should be a better way to do this to prevent paint marring but, the rudder probably won't go there during typical operation anyway. The build manual does not address his fact.
What next? Fix the elevator bell crank install and begin working on the canopy (I have the new one and that, according to Arion, should be completed before the firewall install). Section 41 calls for forming 4 mounting brackets according to the drawing at the end of this section in the builder's manual. There is no drawing. I asked, via Email on the 29th of January, for a drawing but have not heard back from them as yet. I don't have the parts for the new canopy frame (pins and latch) but have requested them.
That's where I stand right now in the build process.............Bill in Tucson with kit #49.
N1BZRich(at)aol.com (N1BZRich(at)aol.com) wrote:
[quote] Hi Bill,
This may not be a timely response to your message, as others have already answered, but I have been out of touch for a few days working on another project in NC. However, reading your message about the Lightning builder's manual, I have to ask which other kit aircraft have you built or which other kit builder's manuals you see as being better than the Lightning? Looking back on my 34 years of being involved in EAA, having built three airplanes, and having visited numerous different aircraft projects as an EAA Technical Counselor, I have only seen one that I would consider better, and that airplane is not available now. That one was the Christen Eagle (aerobatic bi-plane) which you may or may not remember. It certainly was not a quick build airplane, but the marketing, packaging, and all other builder information materials were outstanding.
My opinion (and that may be worth exactly what you paid for it) is that for quick build kits, the Lightning's build manual is the best out there at the moment. Sure, there is always room for making the Lightning build manual better and Arion's goal of constantly updating it by using feedback provided by builders is the best way to accomplish that. I am sure they will appreciate any suggestions to make the manual more current and user friendly. As to wasting a weekend because no one could take your call because of an engine seminar, I would think there would have been lots of other parts of the airplane that you could have worked on -that is unless everything else was completed. To really build a quick built kit "quickly" the key is time management. Develop a plan that efficiently uses your time whenever you are "in the shop" just like you have a plan every time you launch on a test flight.
Good luck in your efforts to get your Lightning up and flying. Everyone on the list is pulling for you and would enjoy regular updates on your progress. Your experiences building and flying your Lightning will likely result in more readers of this list deciding to build. And that goes for all other current Lightning builders and those that are already flying your Lightning. Give the list an update ever so often as to how things are going. Earl, when is your "round the world" flight?
Blue Skies,
Buz
Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
[b]
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vettin74(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: Building update for kit #49 in Tucson |
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This is a much more informitive email and can be made useful.
Thank you
nick
Sales Email Account <sales(at)billandruth.net> wrote:
[quote]Hi Buz,
Thanks for your input. The last kit manual I worked with was that of the Kitfox model 7 and it was a quick build version also. The manual was quite explicit.
Time management is very important in the build process and there are always things you can do if you are stymied with something else. I have worked in quite a number of areas and I will list them for you here and the problems I had to resolve.
Fuselage: sanded and join seams filled, windows holes cut out and gel coat removed for window bonding with the new formed windows (very nice). No updated manual info on installing these new windows. Will hold off installing these until very close to painting as they are very easily scratched or marred. Created and Installed the brackets for the mid elevator bell crank and recommend that the aluminum elevator trim hook be formed and installed at this time so you won't need to remove it later in the build process where it is currently called for in the build manual.
Wings: installed wing tip vents, called about which way the 45 degree bevel should face regarding the relative wind. Glued and floxed them in and then read that the guidance provided by my dealer was incorrect and had to redo them. My dealer tries very hard to be helpful but, this time he didn't get it right. Have installed the gas caps and the fuel sending units. The sending units where the first installed in the field with the new larger tanks and they have a baffle that isn't placed consistently within the tank and the hole that they must pass through in the baffle was not placed at the same point in each tank. So I spent lots of hours carefully bending the probes to get them installed properly. They are in now and when current is applied appear to work OK.
Rudder install: Put the bearings in the rudder brackets and installed them in the vertical stab. This was a very time consuming process with a great deal of trial and error. You are working in a very limited access area and it is extremely difficult to mark the position of the holes for drilling in the stab spar. However, the rudder is installed and centered perfectly in the vertical spar and swings back and forth like greased lightning (pun intended). However, the bolt and castle nut combination is problematic for the lower hinge bolt install as one size bolt is too short and the other too long so this will need to be worked out in the final install. Swidged fittings on the rudder cables are stressed were the cable meets the fitting during side to side rudder movement. This is because there is no moveable bearing at the rudder cable attach point. I have not been able to find a suitable bearing to mitigate this issue.
Spar Box Install: This was accomplished after seemingly countless wings on wings off efforts. The incidence on the wings are within a tenth of a degree (digital level) and the wings match up well with the fuselage wing fillets except on the center upper edge of the right wing were the wing had to be built up with bondo. I have elected to drill and tap each of the incidence washers with 4 6-32 stainless machine screws as I did not like the stainless steel pop rivets for securing them at the wing attach point. We had one builder in Tucson who had a problem with this mounting method because the rivets pulled out and the washer could not be tightened or unscrewed. He had to cut a hole in the wing so he could grab the washer. Right wing is .25 inches longer than the left wing but Arion says this is OK. Gear legs needed to be sanded after removing and sanding inside of spar box mounting tubes. They are still a very tight fit. They require future work to get them right.
Stab install: brackets installed and stab installed into them and bolted securely. Bolts installed from inside the stab. Left stab is .25 inches longer than the right stab. Stab is installed 90 degrees to the vertical fin and dead level with the wings. Stab incidence is equal on both sides and lies at .4 degrees positive. No incidence setting enumerated in the build manual. Stab in prepped for bonding to the fuselage. Stab incidence bolts come in contact with seat belt cables as they lie in the same plain with each other. However, I don't believe this to be an issue.
Rudder pedal and master cylinder install: Completed. Rudder cable bracket holes had to be moved as the rudder cables rubbed across each other or the bottom of the spar box after they were initially installed. Would recommend that these holes be drilled after you determine the clearance issues related to the spar and nylon guides for the rudder pedals are determined. This is a two person process. One person puts tension on the cables after they pass through the guides while the other marks the hole in the firewall flange at its required spacing from the center of the fuselage carefully noting where they need to be placed so that they don't touch the spar or each other.
Elevator and push rod install: Hinges on stab and aligned after cutting and drilling them. Elevator hinges attached to elevators. Holes go through fiberglass and then a metal backer inside the elevator. Have fabricated the elevator push/pull tube and installed same to mid elevator bell crank. Have installed the elevator bell crank twice and its still not right. Either the rudder rubs on the cross tube part of the bell crank or the bell crank elevator horn rubs on the rudder. I did not recognize that the rudder is designed to rub up against the sides of the vertical fin and that they form the physical stop to limit rudder travel. This is not the case with the elevator pitch control module which has physical stops installed. Seems like there should be a better way to do this to prevent paint marring but, the rudder probably won't go there during typical operation anyway. The build manual does not address his fact.
What next? Fix the elevator bell crank install and begin working on the canopy (I have the new one and that, according to Arion, should be completed before the firewall install). Section 41 calls for forming 4 mounting brackets according to the drawing at the end of this section in the builder's manual. There is no drawing. I asked, via Email on the 29th of January, for a drawing but have not heard back from them as yet. I don't have the parts for the new canopy frame (pins and latch) but have requested them.
That's where I stand right now in the build process.............Bill in Tucson with kit #49.
N1BZRich(at)aol.com (N1BZRich(at)aol.com) wrote:
[quote] Hi Bill,
This may not be a timely response to your message, as others have already answered, but I have been out of touch for a few days working on another project in NC. However, reading your message about the Lightning builder's manual, I have to ask which other kit aircraft have you built or which other kit builder's manuals you see as being better than the Lightning? Looking back on my 34 years of being involved in EAA, having built three airplanes, and having visited numerous different aircraft projects as an EAA Technical Counselor, I have only seen one that I would consider better, and that airplane is not available now. That one was the Christen Eagle (aerobatic bi-plane) which you may or may not remember. It certainly was not a quick build airplane, but the marketing, packaging, and all other builder information materials were outstanding.
My opinion (and that may be worth exactly what you paid for it) is that for quick build kits, the Lightning's build manual is the best out there at the moment. Sure, there is always room for making the Lightning build manual better and Arion's goal of constantly updating it by using feedback provided by builders is the best way to accomplish that. I am sure they will appreciate any suggestions to make the manual more current and user friendly. As to wasting a weekend because no one could take your call because of an engine seminar, I would think there would have been lots of other parts of the airplane that you could have worked on -that is unless everything else was completed. To really build a quick built kit "quickly" the key is time management. Develop a plan that efficiently uses your time whenever you are "in the shop" just like you have a plan every time you launch on a test flight.
Good luck in your efforts to get your Lightning up and flying. Everyone on the list is pulling for you and would enjoy regular updates on your progress. Your experiences building and flying your Lightning will likely result in more readers of this list deciding to build. And that goes for all other current Lightning builders and those that are already flying your Lightning. Give the list an update ever so often as to how things are going. Earl, when is your "round the world" flight?
Blue Skies,
Buz
Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
[quote][b] [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Lightning-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
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N1BZRich(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: Building update for kit #49 in Tucson |
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Bill,
Great run down and just the type of feedback that is needed to insure an accurate, quality build manual. I know the SYI guys appreciate this type of effort. Other builders will certainly benefit from what you provided as well. This is the type of info sharing that this group needs. By the way, that is also the type of "record" keeping that you will need to show your local FSDO when you go for your FAA repairman's certificate. Some of us have been using Kit Log Pro, but the type of write up you have (with dates and photos) will suffice to show them that you actually did the work yourself. Good work.
As to the Kitfox, it has been about a year since I visited a quick build project for it and looked over it's build manual. This was the second aircraft this person had built and he said that the quick build kit was basically an assembly project since very little building had to be done. His previous experience probably helped him this second time around, but he had very high words of praise for the kit and build manual. He is retired and I think he said it had taken him about a year.
Blue Skies,
Buz
Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Lightning-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
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Kayberg(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: Building update for kit #49 in Tucson |
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In a message dated 2/4/2008 1:10:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sales(at)billandruth.net writes:
| Quote: |
Thanks for your input. The last kit manual I worked with was that of the Kitfox model 7 and it was a quick build version also. The manual was quite explicit.
|
I suppose there were a number of things that took Kitfox into bankruptcy, but the rumor I heard was that spent too much money on overhead, including a fine manufacturing plant.
It is not hard to make a very explicit manual if you are willing to spend a ton of money on it. By very carefully building a locked design (model 7 as opposed to model 1) surrounded by talented scribes and a large budget for printing, it is certainly possible.
It is very difficult to do one with reasonable budget constraints.
This is a very tough business to make money in. In my opinion, the Arion team have been doing all the right things. The same cannot be said for Kitfox.
Doug Koenigsberg
Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Lightning-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
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sales(at)billandruth.net
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: Building update for kit #49 in Tucson |
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Hi Doug,
Unfortunately for the Skystar, the last company that produced the Kitfox before its current owner began operations, there was an accident that occurred that started them down the road to bankruptcy. There hangar door was open and a runaway aircraft (under power) slammed into several of their completed aircraft, including their latest version, and destroyed them. They had no or very limited insurance nor did the owner of the runaway and they never recovered from this huge, to them, financial loss. This was the primary cause of their demise and is very instructive for those in this industry. A catastrophic loss of uninsured or underinsured capital assets will ultimately put you out of business even if you have a good well recognized product and sales are reasonable. Industry providers (Arion in particular, as they appear to me to be a startup company) should make very careful note of this fact. I would hate to see Arion take a hit like this. Companies in this business often are under capitalized and fail easily as a result. What is great about Arion is that their kit usually ships with all the unique kit parts necessary to the kit build that can't be provided by anyone else (without significant tooling investment). If the company fails, the new kit owner can produce the aircraft with the existing components they already have. This is one of the very best reasons to invest in a kit produced by Arion and one of the primary decision making factors in my kit purchasing analysis.
Bill in Tucson with kit #49.
Kayberg(at)aol.com (Kayberg(at)aol.com) wrote: [quote] In a message dated 2/4/2008 1:10:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sales(at)billandruth.net (sales(at)billandruth.net) writes:
| Quote: |
Thanks for your input. The last kit manual I worked with was that of the Kitfox model 7 and it was a quick build version also. The manual was quite explicit.
|
I suppose there were a number of things that took Kitfox into bankruptcy, but the rumor I heard was that spent too much money on overhead, including a fine manufacturing plant.
It is not hard to make a very explicit manual if you are willing to spend a ton of money on it. By very carefully building a locked design (model 7 as opposed to model 1) surrounded by talented scribes and a large budget for printing, it is certainly possible.
It is very difficult to do one with reasonable budget constraints.
This is a very tough business to make money in. In my opinion, the Arion team have been doing all the right things. The same cannot be said for Kitfox.
Doug Koenigsberg
Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
[b]
| | - The Matronics Lightning-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
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Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: Building update for kit #49 in Tucson |
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Thanks for the additional info.
My understanding was that they had really ramped up for S-LSA sales....about 2 years too soon. I recall that they had quite a heavy investment in buildings and tooling.
And the real problem is that either there is no insurance available or it is prohibitive if you are a manufacturer.
Doug
In a message dated 2/5/2008 10:50:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sales(at)billandruth.net writes:
| Quote: | Hi Doug,
Unfortunately for the Skystar, the last company that produced the Kitfox before its current owner began operations, there was an accident that occurred that started them down the road to bankruptcy. There hangar door was open and a runaway aircraft (under power) slammed into several of their completed aircraft, including their latest version, and destroyed them. They had no or very limited insurance nor did the owner of the runaway and they never recovered from this huge, to them, financial loss. This was the primary cause of their demise and is very instructive for those in this industry. A catastrophic loss of uninsured or underinsured capital assets will ultimately put you out of business even if you have a good well recognized product and sales are reasonable. Industry providers (Arion in particular, as they appear to me to be a startup company) should make very careful note of this fact. I would hate to see Arion take a hit like this. Companies in this business often are under capitalized and fail easily as a result. What is great about Arion is that their kit usually ships with all the unique kit parts necessary to the kit build that can't be provided by anyone else (without significant tooling investment). If the company fails, the new kit owner can produce the aircraft with the existing components they already have. This is one of the very best reasons to invest in a kit produced by Arion and one of the primary decision making factors in my kit purchasing analysis.
Bill in Tucson with kit #49.
Kayberg(at)aol.com (Kayberg(at)aol.com) wrote: |
Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Lightning-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
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