 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest
|
 Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: The Lightning Builder's Manual |
 |
|
Quote "Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?" end quote
There are rudder stops. That's what the bulge on the rudder with the flat edge does. I can't remember if it touches on the horizontal or on the vertical tail assembly, but when it's all together I gaurantee there's a limit to rudder travel.
As far as the rest goes, I'm sure that you're right, that one day that most Lightning's will have to be built at home. At some point in the growth process that will have to be the case as it's just not feasable to have enough space and build assisstants for a huge scale operation. I know that the current build manuals were a lot to do with building the prototype and therefore there are some differences, but I'm willing to bet that Nick and Mark et al will constantly be revising this document. The plane itself is going through many changes. Small things such as an updated and improved canopy latch system to much bigger changes like a new and longer wing. At some point it will be more smaller than larger changes being made and will make keeping up with a build manual much easier.
One thing that I would suggest would be to make the build manual available online and all updates to be saved online at the same time that they are saved to the PC. This way the users at home can download Revision XXX dated MM/DD/YYYY and know that they have the latest and greatest, even if the kit takes them a year or more to build. Having the Operating Manual online would probably be nice too since a lot of people want a peek at operating procedures and testing data. I know that it's all easier said than done, but I think would make for a user-friendly company. There's still things that folks will find or confuse I'm sure, but perhaps a good thing to try. Brian W.
| Quote: | Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 20:55:37 -0700
From: sales(at)billandruth.net
To: vettin74(at)yahoo.com; mark.stauffer1(at)gmail.com
Subject: The Lightning Builder's Manual
Hi one and all,
First, I want to say that at least one at Arion got the humor in the "secret code phrase" post regarding the builder's manual. That's a good thing. However, this kit still lacks a concerted effort to get the manual up to par with the rest of the kit building providers out there. The company's emphasis on builder's assistance in the kit build process takes much of the fuss out of the build and that is just fine. However, not everyone can afford that route. Those of us who want to build or who must build on our own, don't have the benefit of the accumulated experience the builder assist program provides. The manual and tech support phone calls are our only recourse. I called Arion about an elevator control horn install question on Friday and there was not a single person available because they all were in an engine clinic. So, a wasted building weekend was the result.
If the Lightning is to be a real success with the kit building community, a quality builder's manual has to be produced and soon. Otherwise, problems in the build process could very well start to become a theme that will negatively impact sales. I know that the company wants to place a higher priority on getting this done. I've been told that several times. But, lip service does not produce results. Commitment to the builder/buyer does and it helps everyone! The stand alone builder will eventually dominate the build process, in my view, and more Lightning sales will result because of that fact. Consequently, he/she deserves much more consideration and respect than is being provided right now.
I know that many of you on the "list" will find this to be a very harsh criticism of Arion. I am sorry that I may have offended you and them, if that is the case. However, I believe that this kit has got the potential to take a big chunk out of Van's market share. There is a builder two hangars down building an RV-7A and all he says when I discuss a building issue with him is you don't have plans and therefore you need a really good builder's manual. I don't have an adequate response to that comment.
If the Lightning is going to really catch on with those who have considered Van's kits, the manual will need to be a much better product.
I highly encourage every stand alone builder to contact Arion and communicate every single manual deficiency you have encountered in the build process and what you had to do to resolve the problem/s encountered so far.
I look forward to the day when sixty Lighnings will arrive in mass at Air Venture and give Van's "Air Force" a real run for their money. That day will come much sooner when everyone has access to a top-notch builder's manual.
Enough with the soap box, Bill with kit #49 in mid sixties weather in Tucson still working on the elevator control horn install (Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?) 
| Quote: |
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. Play now! [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Lightning-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Kayberg(at)aol.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:20 am Post subject: The Lightning Builder's Manual |
|
|
Since the writer of the below posting felt free to make what he perceived to be harsh criticism, I trust he wont mind if I return the favor.
First, the effort on the Lightning builders manual is actually very good as compared to the rest of homebuilding. It has been a CONCERTED EFFORT and at considerable expense for a kitplane company that has shipped LESS THAN 100 kits. To have color pictures in a loose-leaf notebook page is exceptional for such a new company.
To compare any of the Lightning to Van's products is to compare Ferrari to a Chevy truck. Of course Van's has sold a zillion kits (the Chevy). Not so hard to afford to work on the ol manual. But for years the Van's birds did not have good plans and paperwork, so there were many "support groups" formed. Entire EAA chapters were devoted to assisting people to actually complete a plane. Lots of complaints about the build manual. Not to mention that it normally took about 10 years to build one.
But IMHO, the biggest issue isnt the manual but the builder. As the importer of a kitplane that has sold over 150 kits, I also got complaints about the build manual. At first they had a point, since the manual was in French! So a video was made to show EXACTLY how to build it. Then the manual was rewritten to be very explicit. AND there is a Yahoo group with 1,000 members. We STILL get calls from some builders about every detail.....on a bird that can be built in 150 -250 hours!!!!
Every airplane has its build difficulties. The problem is that those vary depending on the builder. Van's deals with builder problems by SEVERELY LIMITING the time of day they will take builder calls. At least Arion will take your calls and TRY to assist. I would expect them to occasionally be preoccupied. Since the engine seminar is not given that often, I would not expect a repeat. It is too bad the writer wasted a weekend because he could not fit his rudder. I'm a little surprised that there was not something else to work on.
But any builder of a plane would probably identify with the tone of frustration that comes through. I dont think the manual is the sole cause of it; there are few things that compare with the building of a possible aircraft. Building seems to be both a source of joy and anger at the same moment. Build manuals can easily be a lightning (?) rod for that frustration.
Doug Koenigsberg
In a message dated 2/2/2008 10:59:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sales(at)billandruth.net writes:
| Quote: | Hi one and all,
First, I want to say that at least one at Arion got the humor in the "secret code phrase" post regarding the builder's manual. That's a good thing. However, this kit still lacks a concerted effort to get the manual up to par with the rest of the kit building providers out there. The company's emphasis on builder's assistance in the kit build process takes much of the fuss out of the build and that is just fine. However, not everyone can afford that route. Those of us who want to build or who must build on our own, don't have the benefit of the accumulated experience the builder assist program provides. The manual and tech support phone calls are our only recourse. I called Arion about an elevator control horn install question on Friday and there was not a single person available because they all were in an engine clinic. So, a wasted building weekend was the result.
If the Lightning is to be a real success with the kit building community, a quality builder's manual has to be produced and soon. Otherwise, problems in the build process could very well start to become a theme that will negatively impact sales. I know that the company wants to place a higher priority on getting this done. I've been told that several times. But, lip service does not produce results. Commitment to the builder/buyer does and it helps everyone! The stand alone builder will eventually dominate the build process, in my view, and more Lightning sales will result because of that fact. Consequently, he/she deserves much more consideration and respect than is being provided right now.
I know that many of you on the "list" will find this to be a very harsh criticism of Arion. I am sorry that I may have offended you and them, if that is the case. However, I believe that this kit has got the potential to take a big chunk out of Van's market share. There is a builder two hangars down building an RV-7A and all he says when I discuss a building issue with him is you don't have plans and therefore you need a really good builder's manual. I don't have an adequate response to that comment.
If the Lightning is going to really catch on with those who have considered Van's kits, the manual will need to be a much better product.
I highly encourage every stand alone builder to contact Arion and communicate every single manual deficiency you have encountered in the build process and what you had to do to resolve the problem/s encountered so far.
I look forward to the day when sixty Lighnings will arrive in mass at Air Venture and give Van's "Air Force" a real run for their money. That day will come much sooner when everyone has access to a top-notch builder's manual.
Enough with the soap box, Bill with kit #49 in mid sixties weather in Tucson still working on the elevator control horn install (Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?)
|
Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Lightning-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pete(at)flylightning.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:19 am Post subject: The Lightning Builder's Manual |
|
|
Let’s put this into perspective just a bit. In 1989 I built a Van’s RV 6. I started the Kit (I think it was the 636th one started) with the plans and manuals Van provided. At that point in the development of his company he had been in business for close to 10 years and over 1000 kits were sold between RV 3, 4, and 6. The plans I received were poor and the instructions were minimal at best. Now after 20 years Van’s manuals are pretty good.
Lightning has been offered as a kit for a little over a year and a half. Our manuals are far better than Van’s were for my RV-6. Those of us who have had exposure to many kit builds will recognize that the Lightning manuals are better than most that are provided with kits but not yet as good as they will be.
The point I should make here is that the manuals are more than adequate to build the plane. It’s been proven many times by builders. It just requires a bit more thought and initiative from the builders than a manual that instructs a builder on every little thing.
I do hope that we will be competitive with Vans and become a bigger player in the kit aircraft industry. It will not happen overnight, though.
You can tell your buddy with the RV-7 that he should be glad he was not building an RV in the late 80’s as I’m sure he would have been baffled by inaccurate plans and vague, sketchy directions with no photos to help out. We had to wait for the newsletter every other month to clear up some of the inaccuracies, then build the part over again with the right dimensions.
I do take offense at your comment that there is no “concentrated effort” to improve the manual. I see the effort every day and it is substantial on the part of our one man product design, technical writing, test flying, aircraft construction, sales and marketing department. You are way off base there. You can see some of the effort in the seven new manual sections completed in January alone and posted on line with their revision dates in the owners’ area.
As far as commitment to the buyer – I know for a fact that our builders get more help from Arion Aircraft and its dealers than any other kit out there. We don’t set limited hours for technical assistance like Vans or Sonex. We answer the phone and email promptly. You have a dealer right next door to you where you can see Lightnings under construction and Lightnings that are completed. Take more advantage of that local resource and change your attitude that since the dealer is not as technically educated as you are that he can’t advise you. The help is there, the manual is all you need to build a good aircraft. I know because I’ve built great aircraft (including a Vans) with a lot less.
And Bill, you might consider moderating your tone a bit when you talk with Chasity or Dana in our office. They may soon get to the point of responding in kind or hanging up on you as you do to them when you don’t get your way immediately. As for wasting a weekend – I’m sure you had plenty of other areas you could work on or you could have seen first hand how the elevator horn goes together by calling or visiting your dealer just a few miles away from you.
As far as rudder stops – what kit are you looking at? Rudder stops are built into the rudder. Stop looking for something in a book and look at the airplane in front of you!
Pete Krotje
From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sales Email Account
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 9:56 PM
To: nick otterback; mark.stauffer1(at)gmail.com
Subject: The Lightning Builder's Manual
Hi one and all,
First, I want to say that at least one at Arion got the humor in the "secret code phrase" post regarding the builder's manual. That's a good thing. However, this kit still lacks a concerted effort to get the manual up to par with the rest of the kit building providers out there. The company's emphasis on builder's assistance in the kit build process takes much of the fuss out of the build and that is just fine. However, not everyone can afford that route. Those of us who want to build or who must build on our own, don't have the benefit of the accumulated experience the builder assist program provides. The manual and tech support phone calls are our only recourse. I called Arion about an elevator control horn install question on Friday and there was not a single person available because they all were in an engine clinic. So, a wasted building weekend was the result.
If the Lightning is to be a real success with the kit building community, a quality builder's manual has to be produced and soon. Otherwise, problems in the build process could very well start to become a theme that will negatively impact sales. I know that the company wants to place a higher priority on getting this done. I've been told that several times. But, lip service does not produce results. Commitment to the builder/buyer does and it helps everyone! The stand alone builder will eventually dominate the build process, in my view, and more Lightning sales will result because of that fact. Consequently, he/she deserves much more consideration and respect than is being provided right now.
I know that many of you on the "list" will find this to be a very harsh criticism of Arion. I am sorry that I may have offended you and them, if that is the case. However, I believe that this kit has got the potential to take a big chunk out of Van's market share. There is a builder two hangars down building an RV-7A and all he says when I discuss a building issue with him is you don't have plans and therefore you need a really good builder's manual. I don't have an adequate response to that comment.
If the Lightning is going to really catch on with those who have considered Van's kits, the manual will need to be a much better product.
I highly encourage every stand alone builder to contact Arion and communicate every single manual deficiency you have encountered in the build process and what you had to do to resolve the problem/s encountered so far.
I look forward to the day when sixty Lighnings will arrive in mass at Air Venture and give Van's "Air Force" a real run for their money. That day will come much sooner when everyone has access to a top-notch builder's manual.
Enough with the soap box, Bill with kit #49 in mid sixties weather in Tucson still working on the elevator control horn install (Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?) | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
0123456789
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Lightning-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sales(at)billandruth.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: The Lightning Builder's Manual |
|
|
Hi All,
Thanks Pete for your quick response. It's obvious that I hit some very sensitive nerves with my post. Build manuals always lag behind the kit, that's just the nature of the beast. However, there are good manuals out there right now and they could be used as exemplary examples for our manual. We don't have to start where Vans did all those many years ago to produce them now. And Nick, your self admitted do everything guy is, in my estimation, a super guy worthy of great praise for his endurance and perseverance. He just could use some help. Your definition of "concerted effort" is obviously different than mine. One person responsible for a multitude of tasks simply does not translate into a "concerted effort."
Regarding the ladies in your office, I have NEVER treated them with disrespect and I never will! Your comment is way off base here. I have never hung up on them once. I have had several dropped calls using my cell phone in my hangar after being placed on hold for several minutes. When that happened I did not assume that they had hung up on me. I just called back! I don't recall them doing the same for me and did not expect them to.
Regarding the rudder, mine hits the elevator control horn before it hits the sides of the vertical fin. That is because the manual says in section 21 the following: "Temporarily install the rear elevator bell-crank, there is no need to bolt it in place just slide a couple of bolts in place." There is no guidance provided for locating those bolt holes. Consequently, it is very easy to drill those holes in the wrong place. That was why I called Arion.
I don't want to spend any more of the list's time responding to the comments you have made. Suffice it to say that you can build the Lightning with the existing manual. I am but, I have decided to name my Lightning "Swiss Cheese" because of all of the extra holes I've had to make to get it right.
Bill, the Ogre in Tucson.
Pete wrote:
[quote] v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Let’s put this into perspective just a bit. In 1989 I built a Van’s RV 6. I started the Kit (I think it was the 636th one started) with the plans and manuals Van provided. At that point in the development of his company he had been in business for close to 10 years and over 1000 kits were sold between RV 3, 4, and 6. The plans I received were poor and the instructions were minimal at best. Now after 20 years Van’s manuals are pretty good.
Lightning has been offered as a kit for a little over a year and a half. Our manuals are far better than Van’s were for my RV-6. Those of us who have had exposure to many kit builds will recognize that the Lightning manuals are better than most that are provided with kits but not yet as good as they will be.
The point I should make here is that the manuals are more than adequate to build the plane. It’s been proven many times by builders. It just requires a bit more thought and initiative from the builders than a manual that instructs a builder on every little thing.
I do hope that we will be competitive with Vans and become a bigger player in the kit aircraft industry. It will not happen overnight, though.
You can tell your buddy with the RV-7 that he should be glad he was not building an RV in the late 80’s as I’m sure he would have been baffled by inaccurate plans and vague, sketchy directions with no photos to help out. We had to wait for the newsletter every other month to clear up some of the inaccuracies, then build the part over again with the right dimensions.
I do take offense at your comment that there is no “concentrated effort” to improve the manual. I see the effort every day and it is substantial on the part of our one man product design, technical writing, test flying, aircraft construction, sales and marketing department. You are way off base there. You can see some of the effort in the seven new manual sections completed in January alone and posted on line with their revision dates in the owners’ area.
As far as commitment to the buyer – I know for a fact that our builders get more help from Arion Aircraft and its dealers than any other kit out there. We don’t set limited hours for technical assistance like Vans or Sonex. We answer the phone and email promptly. You have a dealer right next door to you where you can see Lightnings under construction and Lightnings that are completed. Take more advantage of that local resource and change your attitude that since the dealer is not as technically educated as you are that he can’t advise you. The help is there, the manual is all you need to build a good aircraft. I know because I’ve built great aircraft (including a Vans) with a lot less.
And Bill, you might consider moderating your tone a bit when you talk with Chasity or Dana in our office. They may soon get to the point of responding in kind or hanging up on you as you do to them when you don’t get your way immediately. As for wasting a weekend – I’m sure you had plenty of other areas you could work on or you could have seen first hand how the elevator horn goes together by calling or visiting your dealer just a few miles away from you.
As far as rudder stops – what kit are you looking at? Rudder stops are built into the rudder. Stop looking for something in a book and look at the airplane in front of you!
Pete Krotje
From: owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-lightning-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Sales Email Account
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 9:56 PM
To: nick otterback; mark.stauffer1(at)gmail.com (mark.stauffer1(at)gmail.com)
Subject: The Lightning Builder's Manual
Hi one and all,
First, I want to say that at least one at Arion got the humor in the "secret code phrase" post regarding the builder's manual. That's a good thing. However, this kit still lacks a concerted effort to get the manual up to par with the rest of the kit building providers out there. The company's emphasis on builder's assistance in the kit build process takes much of the fuss out of the build and that is just fine. However, not everyone can afford that route. Those of us who want to build or who must build on our own, don't have the benefit of the accumulated experience the builder assist program provides. The manual and tech support phone calls are our only recourse. I called Arion about an elevator control horn install question on Friday and there was not a single person available because they all were in an engine clinic. So, a wasted building weekend was the result.
If the Lightning is to be a real success with the kit building community, a quality builder's manual has to be produced and soon. Otherwise, problems in the build process could very well start to become a theme that will negatively impact sales. I know that the company wants to place a higher priority on getting this done. I've been told that several times. But, lip service does not produce results. Commitment to the builder/buyer does and it helps everyone! The stand alone builder will eventually dominate the build process, in my view, and more Lightning sales will result because of that fact. Consequently, he/she deserves much more consideration and respect than is being provided right now.
I know that many of you on the "list" will find this to be a very harsh criticism of Arion. I am sorry that I may have offended you and them, if that is the case. However, I believe that this kit has got the potential to take a big chunk out of Van's market share. There is a builder two hangars down building an RV-7A and all he says when I discuss a building issue with him is you don't have plans and therefore you need a really good builder's manual. I don't have an adequate response to that comment.
If the Lightning is going to really catch on with those who have considered Van's kits, the manual will need to be a much better product.
I highly encourage every stand alone builder to contact Arion and communicate every single manual deficiency you have encountered in the build process and what you had to do to resolve the problem/s encountered so far.
I look forward to the day when sixty Lighnings will arrive in mass at Air Venture and give Van's "Air Force" a real run for their money. That day will come much sooner when everyone has access to a top-notch builder's manual.
Enough with the soap box, Bill with kit #49 in mid sixties weather in Tucson still working on the elevator control horn install (Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?) 0 1
2 [b]
| | - The Matronics Lightning-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vettin74(at)yahoo.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: The Lightning Builder's Manual |
|
|
the build manual is avalible on line you must be an owner to access it...
nick
Brian Whittingham <dashvii(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote] .hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma }
Quote "Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?" end quote
There are rudder stops. That's what the bulge on the rudder with the flat edge does. I can't remember if it touches on the horizontal or on the vertical tail assembly, but when it's all together I gaurantee there's a limit to rudder travel.
As far as the rest goes, I'm sure that you're right, that one day that most Lightning's will have to be built at home. At some point in the growth process that will have to be the case as it's just not feasable to have enough space and build assisstants for a huge scale operation. I know that the current build manuals were a lot to do with building the prototype and therefore there are some differences, but I'm willing to bet that Nick and Mark et al will constantly be revising this document. The plane itself is going through many changes. Small things such as an updated and improved canopy latch system to much bigger changes like a new and longer wing. At some point it will be more smaller than larger changes being made and will make keeping up with a build manual much easier.
One thing that I would suggest would be to make the build manual available online and all updates to be saved online at the same time that they are saved to the PC. This way the users at home can download Revision XXX dated MM/DD/YYYY and know that they have the latest and greatest, even if the kit takes them a year or more to build. Having the Operating Manual online would probably be nice too since a lot of people want a peek at operating procedures and testing data. I know that it's all easier said than done, but I think would make for a user-friendly company. There's still things that folks will find or confuse I'm sure, but perhaps a good thing to try. Brian W.
| Quote: | Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 20:55:37 -0700
From: sales(at)billandruth.net
To: vettin74(at)yahoo.com; mark.stauffer1(at)gmail.com
Subject: The Lightning Builder's Manual
Hi one and all,
First, I want to say that at least one at Arion got the humor in the "secret code phrase" post regarding the builder's manual. That's a good thing. However, this kit still lacks a concerted effort to get the manual up to par with the rest of the kit building providers out there. The company's emphasis on builder's assistance in the kit build process takes much of the fuss out of the build and that is just fine. However, not everyone can afford that route. Those of us who want to build or who must build on our own, don't have the benefit of the accumulated experience the builder assist program provides. The manual and tech support phone calls are our only recourse. I called Arion about an elevator control horn install question on Friday and there was not a single person available because they all were in an engine clinic. So, a wasted building weekend was the result.
If the Lightning is to be a real success with the kit building community, a quality builder's manual has to be produced and soon. Otherwise, problems in the build process could very well start to become a theme that will negatively impact sales. I know that the company wants to place a higher priority on getting this done. I've been told that several times. But, lip service does not produce results. Commitment to the builder/buyer does and it helps everyone! The stand alone builder will eventually dominate the build process, in my view, and more Lightning sales will result because of that fact. Consequently, he/she deserves much more consideration and respect than is being provided right now.
I know that many of you on the "list" will find this to be a very harsh criticism of Arion. I am sorry that I may have offended you and them, if that is the case. However, I believe that this kit has got the potential to take a big chunk out of Van's market share. There is a builder two hangars down building an RV-7A and all he says when I discuss a building issue with him is you don't have plans and therefore you need a really good builder's manual. I don't have an adequate response to that comment.
If the Lightning is going to really catch on with those who have considered Van's kits, the manual will need to be a much better product.
I highly encourage every stand alone builder to contact Arion and communicate every single manual deficiency you have encountered in the build process and what you had to do to resolve the problem/s encountered so far.
I look forward to the day when sixty Lighnings will arrive in mass at Air Venture and give Van's "Air Force" a real run for their money. That day will come much sooner when everyone has access to a top-notch builder's manual.
Enough with the soap box, Bill with kit #49 in mid sixties weather in Tucson still working on the elevator control horn install (Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?)
| Quote: | | " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
|
Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. Play now! [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Lightning-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dashvii(at)hotmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: The Lightning Builder's Manual |
|
|
Sounds like you guys have a pretty good setup then if you got it online and are always updating it. Probably even better technology and therefore quicker updates than probably half of kitplane manfacturers out there I bet! One thing that I'd caution everybody to stop and think about before being too critical is that
a document is written by one person, or maybe a few people. Then the builder gets it and goes through it and interprets what is presented. Some folks interpret things differently and some have
a harder time understanding things either because of how it is written or because of how they decode the messages. Now 90 out of a 100 people might understand it just fine, but 10 out of a hundred
might just not be on the same wavelength. That is fine, and fairly normal, but don't jump to the conclusion that something is written horribly just because you don't like the way it is written. A 90%
rate of acceptence would still be really exceptional, even if all of the 10% that didn't get it were all friends and thus had others that they knew that didn't get it too.
In my line of work it is important to try to make sure that both parties or sometimes 5-6 different parties understand correctly every detail. Sometimes each party speaks a different primary language,
and even if they don't, English speaking from the UK from Australia, New Zealand, from the US in New York and US in Tennessee, are all on very different wavelengths. (as we've already established, the folks from down under have to have the inverted fuel and oil systems in their Lightnings) Sometimes you can read between the lines and figure it out, but other times you need to pick up the phone and call to get some clarification. I feel that the guys at Arion will give you the attention that you need. I don't even have anything to do with the company anymore, as far as being a builder, owner, sales person, or flyer, but I've maintained my interest in the project and I can still call or send an email to Nick or Mark or Pete and get a response within 24 hours and they know that they're not making any money off of me! My best advise is to use the carpenter's rule of thumb, "measure twice, cut once." Brian W.
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 17:39:14 -0800
From: vettin74(at)yahoo.com
Subject: RE: The Lightning Builder's Manual
To: lightning-list(at)matronics.com
| Quote: |
the build manual is avalible on line you must be an owner to access it..
nick
Brian Whittingham <dashvii(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_body.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}
Quote "Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?" end quote
There are rudder stops. That's what the bulge on the rudder with the flat edge does. I can't remember if it touches on the horizontal or on the vertical tail assembly, but when it's all together I gaurantee there's a limit to rudder travel.
As far as the rest goes, I'm sure that you're right, that one day that most Lightning's will have to be built at home. At some point in the growth process that will have to be the case as it's just not feasable to have enough space and build assisstants for a huge scale operation. I know that the current build manuals were a lot to do with building the prototype and therefore there are some differences, but I'm willing to bet that Nick and Mark et al will constantly be revising this document. The plane itself is going through many changes. Small things such as an updated and improved canopy latch system to much bigger changes like a new and longer wing. At some point it will be more smaller than larger changes being made and will make keeping up with a build manual much easier.
One thing that I would suggest would be to make the build manual available online and all updates to be saved online at the same time that they are saved to the PC. This way the users at home can download Revision XXX dated MM/DD/YYYY and know that they have the latest and greatest, even if the kit takes them a year or more to build. Having the Operating Manual online would probably be nice too since a lot of people want a peek at operating procedures and testing data. I know that it's all easier said than done, but I think would make for a user-friendly company. There's still things that folks will find or confuse I'm sure, but perhaps a good thing to try. Brian W.
| Quote: | Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 20:55:37 -0700
From: sales(at)billandruth.net
To: vettin74(at)yahoo.com; mark.stauffer1(at)gmail.com
Subject: The Lightning Builder's Manual
Hi one and all,
First, I want to say that at least one at Arion got the humor in the "secret code phrase" post regarding the builder's manual. That's a good thing. However, this kit still lacks a concerted effort to get the manual up to par with the rest of the kit building providers out there. The company's emphasis on builder's assistance in the kit build process takes much of the fuss out of the build and that is just fine. However, not everyone can afford that route. Those of us who want to build or who must build on our own, don't have the benefit of the accumulated experience the builder assist program provides. The manual and tech support phone calls are our only recourse. I called Arion about an elevator control horn install question on Friday and there was not a single person available because they all were in an engine clinic. So, a wasted building weekend was the result.
If the Lightning is to be a real success with the kit building community, a quality builder's manual has to be produced and soon. Otherwise, problems in the build process could very well start to become a theme that will negatively impact sales. I know that the company wants to place a higher priority on getting this done. I've been told that several times. But, lip service does not produce results. Commitment to the builder/buyer does and it helps everyone! The stand alone builder will eventually dominate the build process, in my view, and more Lightning sales will result because of that fact. Consequently, he/she deserves much more consideration and respect than is being provided right now.
I know that many of you on the "list" will find this to be a very harsh criticism of Arion. I am sorry that I may have offended you and them, if that is the case. However, I believe that this kit has got the potential to take a big chunk out of Van's market share. There is a builder two hangars down building an RV-7A and all he says when I discuss a building issue with him is you don't have plans and therefore you need a really good builder's manual. I don't have an adequate response to that comment.
If the Lightning is going to really catch on with those who have considered Van's kits, the manual will need to be a much better product.
I highly encourage every stand alone builder to contact Arion and communicate every single manual deficiency you have encountered in the build process and what you had to do to resolve the problem/s encountered so far.
I look forward to the day when sixty Lighnings will arrive in mass at Air Venture and give Van's "Air Force" a real run for their money. That day will come much sooner when everyone has access to a top-notch builder's manual.
Enough with the soap box, Bill with kit #49 in mid sixties weather in Tucson still working on the elevator control horn install (Did you know there are no rudder stops to limit rudder motion?)
| Quote: | | " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
|
Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. Play now! | Quote: |
" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List
p://forums.matronics.com
blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
|
Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. Play now! [quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Lightning-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
N1BZRich(at)aol.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: The Lightning Builder's Manual |
|
|
Hi Bill,
This may not be a timely response to your message, as others have already answered, but I have been out of touch for a few days working on another project in NC. However, reading your message about the Lightning builder's manual, I have to ask which other kit aircraft have you built or which other kit builder's manuals you see as being better than the Lightning? Looking back on my 34 years of being involved in EAA, having built three airplanes, and having visited numerous different aircraft projects as an EAA Technical Counselor, I have only seen one that I would consider better, and that airplane is not available now. That one was the Christen Eagle (aerobatic bi-plane) which you may or may not remember. It certainly was not a quick build airplane, but the marketing, packaging, and all other builder information materials were outstanding.
My opinion (and that may be worth exactly what you paid for it) is that for quick build kits, the Lightning's build manual is the best out there at the moment. Sure, there is always room for making the Lightning build manual better and Arion's goal of constantly updating it by using feedback provided by builders is the best way to accomplish that. I am sure they will appreciate any suggestions to make the manual more current and user friendly. As to wasting a weekend because no one could take your call because of an engine seminar, I would think there would have been lots of other parts of the airplane that you could have worked on -that is unless everything else was completed. To really build a quick built kit "quickly" the key is time management. Develop a plan that efficiently uses your time whenever you are "in the shop" just like you have a plan every time you launch on a test flight.
Good luck in your efforts to get your Lightning up and flying. Everyone on the list is pulling for you and would enjoy regular updates on your progress. Your experiences building and flying your Lightning will likely result in more readers of this list deciding to build. And that goes for all other current Lightning builders and those that are already flying your Lightning. Give the list an update ever so often as to how things are going. Earl, when is your "round the world" flight?
Blue Skies,
Buz
Who's never won? Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Lightning-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Lightning-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
