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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

If I have proven one thing to myself it’s that I suck using the archives. I review them each time before I post a question with limited success.  

It is time to make a Cowl Fastener decision. I plan on using Skybolt STYLE CLoc adjustable fasteners on part of my cowl assembly. I remember a discussion on the list that suggested alternate brands or styles of these fasteners. Does anyone have a preference as to the fastener you would choose as my archive search has been fruitless.  

   

Thanks,  

Robin  

RV-4      Sold  

RV-6A   New Front Gear Leg and Fork  

RV-10    Getting closer to getting closer  

      [quote][b]

prtrotter

Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 14

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

Robin C

  6nbsp;

 The 2 suppliers I know of are Skybolt and Milspec E 6nbsp; I have Milspec myself E 6nbsp; I think the products are comparable but I don 7t know the current pricing for either one E 6nbsp; Jeremy at Milspec is very easy to work with and I recommend calling him if you have any questions E 6nbsp; I bought mine when we had a group buy a couple of years ago and I wanted to change the length of the studs and he did so with no hassle at all even though it was quite awhile later E 6nbsp; www Emilspecproducts Ecom

  6nbsp;

 Paul



---

chuck(at)chuckdirect.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

I agree.  I haven't been able to make the archives work  for me for years.  Way too much time involved with research and I usually  don't find the answer I need.  Perhaps a different search  format?

 Chuck

 [quote]   ---

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

Me too. I find the archives pretty much useless.

David Maib



On Feb 12, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Chuck Weyant wrote:

I agree.  I haven't been able to make the archives work for me for years.  Way too much time involved with research and I usually don't find the answer I need.  Perhaps a different search format?

Chuck

[quote]---

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:36 am Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

Part of the problem is the huge number of messages in the archive that don't have any useful info.  Many people forget to add "do not archive" to messages that won't be useful in the future.  Other people think that the computer program that does the archive will somehow know that "DNA" should be expanded to "do not archive".  



Kevin Horton

do not archive



On Feb 12, 2008 11:15 PM, David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com (dmaib(at)mac.com)> wrote:

 [quote] Me too. I find the archives pretty much useless.



David Maib



On Feb 12, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Chuck Weyant wrote:

  I agree.  I haven't been able to make the archives work for me for years.  Way too much time involved with research and I usually don't find the answer I need.  Perhaps a different search format?

  Chuck

[quote]---

2thman(at)cablespeed.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:05 am Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

I'm continually surprised that builders want to use individual fasteners

along the composite cowls of their airplanes.  Even the certified producers

are going to hinge attachments now.  Look at the Columbia.  Does anyone know

how the Cirrus does it?



This is partly a shameless plug because my company makes and sells Carbinge

graphite piano hinges that is used in so many home builts so be suspicious

of anything I say, but take the time to ask your colleagues who have used

hinges instead of fasteners.



Regards,



John Barrett, CEO

Leading Edge Composites

PO Box 428

Port Hadlock, WA 98339

www.carbinge.com

  

3:20 PM

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

Hi Robin et al-



RE:  > It is time to make a Cowl Fastener decision. I plan on using Skybolt

 	  Quote: 	
		   STYLE CLoc adjustable fasteners on part of my cowl assembly. I 

 remembera discussion on the list that suggested alternate brands 

 or styles of

 these fasteners. Does anyone have a preference as to the 

 fastener you

 would choose as my archive search has been fruitless.


	


A while back Aircraft Spruce had RV cowl fastener kits available.  IIRC

they were Skybolt hardware.  The RV-8 kit was about half the cost of all

the others for some reason.  If that offer is still out there, it might be

a good source for the hardware for any RV.



FWIW-



glen matejcek

aerobubba(at)earthlink.net

bo124rs(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

Perfect example here gang.  Some is going to do a search of "cowl fasteners" and get:  "Me too.  I find the archives pretty much useless".  I'm just sayin'



Dana Overall  

Richmond, KY i39 

RV-7 slider "Black Magic"  Flying

O 360 A1A, C/S C2YR-1BF/F7666A4 

http://rvflying.tripod.com/firstflight_010.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMi05-WU2D0#GU5U2spHI_4

http://rvflying.tripod.com 

do not archive 



[quote]From: dmaib(at)mac.com

Subject: Re: Cowl Fasteners

Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 22:15:08 -0600

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com



 Me too. I find the archives pretty much useless.

David Maib



On Feb 12, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Chuck Weyant wrote:

I agree.  I haven't been able to make the archives work for me for years.  Way too much time involved with research and I usually don't find the answer I need.  Perhaps a different search format?

Chuck

[quote]---

maurv8(at)compuplus.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

Hey, Robin, checkout 

  

 http://home.mindspring.com/~rv6/RV6site/camlocks.htm



This may give you some help.

  

 Mauri

 RV-8 still finishing

 Polson, MT

 [quote]   ---

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

John,

	I am happy to have the shameless plug I didn't know about graphite hinges. My plan was to use the individual fasteners only on the upper firewall curve and the underside of the bottom cowl. I do not think the curved piano hinge on the upper portion of the cowl works well and I really don't care for the two tabs sticking out of the cowl. 

	That being said I especially like the concept of bonding composite to composite. What I don't care for is the difference in pricing between metal & composite hinges. From my brief search a 6 foot piano hinge runs about $11.00 while a 4 foot Carbinge Piano Hinge is $160.00 before the $32.00 Carbinge Keeper. Did I find the wrong source for these hinges? As a rough estimate if I were to do my entire Sam James Cowl with graphite hinges would it take 5 sets of hinges to complete. If so that would put the cost of hinges at 80% of the cost of the cowl. 

	Please don't get me wrong, I have shown a willingness to spend more than I should on small improvements and creature comforts for this plane but nearly $1,000 for cowl hinges seems excessive even to me... Did I miscalculate? I finally figured out why a loaded Cirrus or Columbia is pushing $600,000, the hinges!



Thanks,

Robin




I'm continually surprised that builders want to use individual fasteners

along the composite cowls of their airplanes.  Even the certified producers

are going to hinge attachments now.  Look at the Columbia.  Does anyone know

how the Cirrus does it?



This is partly a shameless plug because my company makes and sells Carbinge

graphite piano hinges that is used in so many home builts so be suspicious

of anything I say, but take the time to ask your colleagues who have used

hinges instead of fasteners.



Regards,



John Barrett, CEO

Leading Edge Composites

PO Box 428

Port Hadlock, WA 98339

www.carbinge.com

  

3:20 PM

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

Hi John,



I don't doubt what you are saying but...

I put hinges on the lower part of my cowl and only 1 year later I know have

to completely redo it.  Most of the eyelets are broke off in this area and I

will need to replace this with skybolt fasteners like I used on the top

curved part.  I love those and hate the hinges.



I also used hinges down the side and the mating surface.  I have no problem

with the sides but the mating surface is a real pain to install and remove.

I can't imagine what I would think if I had used hinges over the top curve.

The sides and mating seam are not breaking and it does make a good looking

seam so I won't replace those ones.  I have heard others complain about the

lower hinges breaking eyes off so there must be some vibration there.



Does your Carbinge graphite hinges hold up well in high vibration areas?



Tim

Maybe the tag should be "to Archive" rather than "Do Not archive".



[quote] --

rnewman(at)tcwtech.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

Regarding cowl fastners and hinging.    As we have done with our Glastar, we 

are going to use 1/4 turn fastners around the firewall/cowl intersection and 

a hinge between the upper and lower cowl halves.   However,   we will not be 

using the Van's supplied rolled hinging.   The far superior extruded hinge 

material is the way to go.   Its available from spruce.

-Bob Newman

TCW Technologies

www.tcwtech.com

panamared5(at)brier.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

At 09:00 AM 2/13/08, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I'm continually surprised that builders want to use individual fasteners

along the composite cowls of their airplanes.  Even the certified producers

are going to hinge attachments now.  Look at the Columbia.  Does anyone know

how the Cirrus does it?


	




I tried to use hinges on my cowl.  After about 30 hours of trying to 

get the top hinges to fit around the curve, I gave up and ordered 

fasteners.  Also the hinges all broke in the bottom of the cowl, and 

the parts of the cowl where I did use hinges, they are not that user 

friendly to the surrounding paint, the cowl, or the ripped up skin on 

my hands and fingers.



I would have loved to use $15.00 worth of hinges rather than the 

$400+ for the fasteners.  But, sometimes you just have to do what you 

have to do!



Fasteners Vs Hinges, this is a case of a real bad solution or a 

really bad solution, in my opinion.



Bob

RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"

deanpichon(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

I am in the middle of replacing the hinges on my -4 with Skybolt fasteners.  I have completed the section connecting the upper cowl half to the firewall and will soon start on the joint between upper and lower cowl halves.

 

I had the rolled hinges as supplied with the kit and have broken a few eyelets.  I much prefer the extruded hinge (to the rolled), but am concerned the (tighter?) tolerances of the extruded hinge may make it difficult or impossible to install the hinge pin along the curved surface of the cowl halves

Mark Phillips in TN

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia, TN

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

In a message dated 02/13/2008 12:47:46 PM Central Standard Time, panamared5(at)brier.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Also the hinges all broke in the bottom of the cowl, and 

the parts of the cowl where I did use hinges, they are not that user 

friendly to the surrounding paint, the cowl, or the ripped up skin on 

my hands and fingers. 	


 >>>

 Also consider countersunk 8-32 screws (six each side) for the bottom, with platenuts mounted on a strip riveted to lower firewall flange.  Not a problem in 450+ hours on my RV-6A.

  

 Mark



The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards.  AOL Music takes you there.

  [quote][b]

_________________
From The PossumWorks...

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

Part of the problem is the huge number of messages in the archive that don't have any useful info.  Many people forget to add "do not archive" to messages that won't be useful in the future.  Other people think that the computer program that does the archive will somehow know that "DNA" should be expanded to "do not archive".  



Kevin Horton

do not archive



On Feb 12, 2008 11:15 PM, David Maib <dmaib(at)mac.com (dmaib(at)mac.com)> wrote:

 [quote] Me too. I find the archives pretty much useless.



David Maib



On Feb 12, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Chuck Weyant wrote:

  I agree.  I haven't been able to make the archives work for me for years.  Way too much time involved with research and I usually don't find the answer I need.  Perhaps a different search format?

  Chuck

[quote]---

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:08 pm Post subject: Re: Cowl Fasteners

 	  khorton01(at)rogers.com wrote: 	
		  Part of the problem is the huge number of messages in the archive that don't have any useful info.  Many people forget to add "do not archive" to messages that won't be useful in the future.  Other people think that the computer program that does the archive will somehow know that "DNA" should be expanded to "do not archive".  	




A lot of folks don't use the e-mail list so the do not archive command makes no sense for folks accessing by Web-based softward.



Plus, I've never been able to understand why a message that has no value i the future, would have any in the present?



One thing you might want to try is the RV search engine

http://rvhotline.expercraft.com/articles/search.html



Or even better, just use regular Google (the RV search engine is basically Google with the crap filtered out) . If it's out there... anywhere... it's GOT to be indexed by Google.



Do not archive

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

dmaib@me.com

Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

Guilty as charged! Mea Culpa!

Do not archive



David Maib

On Feb 13, 2008, at 9:39 AM, Dana Overall wrote:

Perfect example here gang.  Some is going to do a search of "cowl fasteners" and get:  "Me too.  I find the archives pretty much useless".  I'm just sayin'



Dana Overall 

Richmond, KY i39 

RV-7 slider "Black Magic" Flying

O 360 A1A, C/S C2YR-1BF/F7666A4 

http://rvflying.tripod.com/firstflight_010.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMi05-WU2D0#GU5U2spHI_4

http://rvflying.tripod.com 

do not archive 



[quote]From: dmaib(at)mac.com

Subject: Re: Cowl Fasteners

Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 22:15:08 -0600

To: rv-list(at)matronics.com



Me too. I find the archives pretty much useless.

David Maib



On Feb 12, 2008, at 9:55 PM, Chuck Weyant wrote:

I agree.  I haven't been able to make the archives work for me for years.  Way too much time involved with research and I usually don't find the answer I need.  Perhaps a different search format?

Chuck

[quote]---

_________________
David Maib
RV-10 #40559
New Smyrna Beach, FL

baremetl(at)gvtc.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:33 pm Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

I have hinges only for fasteners on my -4 and have had almost zero problems  in 1435 hours. The only problem so far was a rivet broke behind the spinner  where the hinges (extruded type) join the top and bottom cowl halves. This area  is subject to the most stress and if I were doing another, I would use 2 or  3 screws instead. Otherwise, I have had no broken eyes or chipped paint, etc. I  was pretty careful when bonding and riveting to make sure there was no built-in  stress on the hinge halves. The cowl attaches to the fuselage with 1/8" hinges,  but uses a 3/32" pin on the highly curved top half. It sure is easy to remove  for maintenance. Just another data point.

  

 Ivan Haecker    -4   1435 hrs.     S. Cen. TX   

 [quote]   ---

2thman(at)cablespeed.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: Cowl Fasteners

 	  Quote: 	
		  From Ivan Haecker  et al:


	




  In a message dated 02/13/2008 12:47:46 PM Central Standard Time, 

panamared5(at)brier.net writes:

    Also the hinges all broke in the bottom of the cowl, and 

    the parts of the cowl where I did use hinges, they are not that user 



    friendly to the surrounding paint, the cowl, or the ripped up skin 

on 

    my hands and fingers.

  >>>

  Also consider countersunk 8-32 screws (six each side) for the bottom, 

with platenuts mounted on a strip riveted to lower firewall flange.  Not 

a problem in 450+ hours on my RV-6A.



  Mark

*******************

As we have discussed for years on the Lancair Mail List, there are lots of

reasons to avoid screws or camlock type fasteners on composite cowls.  Among

the reasons include weight, difficulty of installation, dinging up the

cowling when removing and replacing cowl, appearance, frictional drag and so

on.



So almost all of us on that list agree that hinges are the better way to go.

I would surmise the poster of the above message used aluminum hinges and

bent them tightly around the front turn in the cowl.  Perhaps he also had to

place some sort of home made retention system as well to keep the pin from

vibrating forward into the prop while in flight.  



We have pretty well perfected the use and installation of graphite hinges

for plastic cowls.  The matchup results in easy installation, an attachment

that holds at every point along the cowl instead of at intervals, one that's

very simple and easy to remove and replace.  There are no rivet divots in

the paintjob and there won't be any of these working loose as hours pass on

the airframe.  We use a product called Carbinge Keepers to avoid a clumsy,

difficult to manage and unsightly retention system for the pins.  The

Keepers utilize a recessed allen screw welded to the end of the pin and a

female button that is bonded into the cowl and the pin/screw arrangement

simple is screwed into the button leaving only a depression of less than

1/4" diameter in the forward edge of the cowl on each side.  You won't find

any of those who have used this system complaining about dinging up their

fingers or having parts come loose.  We have well over 1,000 hours of many

of our installations and we have had no reports of failures or problems

where the installations were done correctly.



Once again this is a shameless plug and I urge all to seek out colleagues

who have used our system.  See web site below.

Regards,



John Barrett, CEO

Leading Edge Composites

PO Box 428

Port Hadlock, WA 98339

www.carbinge.com

  



9:00 AM

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