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Why can't the tower hear me?

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SteveR

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Aledo, TX

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

I fly an open cockpit experimental (Pietenpol).  My radio is a Vertex  

Standard VXA-150 (handheld), powered by an external 8AH/12v battery.   

I have an antenna mounted on a ground plane on the belly, in front of  

the gear.  I have no problems communicating air to air with other  

planes, I have actually maintained contact air-air with friends at  

distances over 125NM.  My calls were reported as loud and clear.  I  

was based at a class D airport (KFTW) for about one year, and never  

had trouble with the tower there.



Two years ago, I moved to a new area, near a class D airport that I  

occasionally go to (KOUN in Norman, OK).  I often have trouble being  

understood by the tower, even though all pilots indicate that my  

transmissions are loud and clear.  Last weekend I tried to enter the  

class D, but both times I called, the tower responded saying that my  

transmissions were "scratchy and unintelligable".  I was about 6NM  

away and could actually see the tower.  I immediately switched to  

another frequency, and heard traffic on the CTAF at KGYI, about 95NM  

away.  I called them and asked for a radio check.  That pilot replied  

that I was loud and clear.  Not wanting to bother the tower or cause  

trouble in their airspace, I turned away before entering.



I am baffled by this.  What would cause me to be unintelligable to the  

KOUN tower repeatedly, when no one else has trouble understanding me,  

even at long distances?  I was on a heading for the tower, and I know  

my transmission strength in that direction (forward) is good.  AND it  

was only six miles away.



My only theory is that the tower doesn't like the wind noise in my  

mic...but I have a noise cancelling mic, with a leather wind-blocking  

mic cover, AND other pilots report my transmissions as clear.



Any thoughts on what might cause this would be appreciated.  It is  

difficult to trouble shoot because I have to bother the tower to  

replicate the problem.



Steve Ruse

handainc(at)madisoncounty
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

Steve -



This is strange!  I fly into KOUN regularly.  When I fly in, I'm 

communicating with flight following with no problems, and transfer off 

to KOUN okay.  The next day, sitting on the ramp, radio cold, they tell 

me that my radio is unreadable.  I've had the radio checked out 

throughly by two different radio shops now 4 times.  Now it is starting 

to happen at another airport KSAG. Yet, I taxi across the field at 

KASG,  the radio shop does a check, call up tower, and everything is 

normal.  Makes no sense and I think something is wrong with THEIR 

radios.  And no, it isn't wind noise.  I've tried everything, even my 

handheld, and at KOUN, they say they cannot understand it either, 

although at KASG, the handheld usually works.  I keep telling them that 

they have something wrong with their system, which has now made me 

almost persona non grata at their facility.  I'm using an ICOM radio and 

have had absolutely no problems with anyone else reading me other than 

those two places, and was all over California, Texas, New Mexico, and 

Arizona with it last December and January, with no problems whatsoever.  

I use flight following on every flight, and occasionally someone will 

tell me my radio has some background noise, but I've gotten in the habit 

of asking for radio checks and always get a good report.  The only 

places I have problems is KOUN and KASG, and usually only on initial 

call up.  Once I'm airborne, they can generally hear me fine.



I'd say we have a similar problem - let's stay in touch until we find 

some way to resolve it. 



M. Haught



Steve Ruse wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <steve(at)wotelectronics.com>



 I fly an open cockpit experimental (Pietenpol).  My radio is a Vertex 

 Standard VXA-150 (handheld), powered by an external 8AH/12v battery.  

 I have an antenna mounted on a ground plane on the belly, in front of 

 the gear.  I have no problems communicating air to air with other 

 planes, I have actually maintained contact air-air with friends at 

 distances over 125NM.  My calls were reported as loud and clear.  I 

 was based at a class D airport (KFTW) for about one year, and never 

 had trouble with the tower there.



 Two years ago, I moved to a new area, near a class D airport that I 

 occasionally go to (KOUN in Norman, OK).  I often have trouble being 

 understood by the tower, even though all pilots indicate that my 

 transmissions are loud and clear.  Last weekend I tried to enter the 

 class D, but both times I called, the tower responded saying that my 

 transmissions were "scratchy and unintelligable".  I was about 6NM 

 away and could actually see the tower.  I immediately switched to 

 another frequency, and heard traffic on the CTAF at KGYI, about 95NM 

 away.  I called them and asked for a radio check.  That pilot replied 

 that I was loud and clear.  Not wanting to bother the tower or cause 

 trouble in their airspace, I turned away before entering.



 I am baffled by this.  What would cause me to be unintelligable to the 

 KOUN tower repeatedly, when no one else has trouble understanding me, 

 even at long distances?  I was on a heading for the tower, and I know 

 my transmission strength in that direction (forward) is good.  AND it 

 was only six miles away.



 My only theory is that the tower doesn't like the wind noise in my 

 mic...but I have a noise cancelling mic, with a leather wind-blocking 

 mic cover, AND other pilots report my transmissions as clear.



 Any thoughts on what might cause this would be appreciated.  It is 

 difficult to trouble shoot because I have to bother the tower to 

 replicate the problem.



 Steve Ruse

simon(at)synchronousdesig
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:55 pm Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

--

bobf(at)feldtman.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

I suspect it is the tower radios. I believe that many still use vaccum tubes - Jurassic radios I used to play with in the 60s as a ham! Anyway, I suspect the govt is wasting out precious airport tax monies (yes they collect taxes on every airline flight we make).... on programs other than aviation safety and upgrades. That's what will happen if the put further tax on GA as well. I frequently have problems with ARTCC in my glastar and a GX65 radio.. not them hearing me - but me hearing them. their transmission are so weak and unreadable

 

bobf



On 2/13/08, Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com (steve(at)wotelectronics.com)> wrote:[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Steve Ruse <steve(at)wotelectronics.com (steve(at)wotelectronics.com)>



I fly an open cockpit experimental (Pietenpol).  My radio is a Vertex

Standard VXA-150 (handheld), powered by an external 8AH/12v battery.

 I have an antenna mounted on a ground plane on the belly, in front of

the gear.  I have no problems communicating air to air with other

planes, I have actually maintained contact air-air with friends at

distances over 125NM.  My calls were reported as loud and clear.  I

 was based at a class D airport (KFTW) for about one year, and never

had trouble with the tower there.



Two years ago, I moved to a new area, near a class D airport that I

occasionally go to (KOUN in Norman, OK).  I often have trouble being

 understood by the tower, even though all pilots indicate that my

transmissions are loud and clear.  Last weekend I tried to enter the

class D, but both times I called, the tower responded saying that my

transmissions were "scratchy and unintelligable".  I was about 6NM

 away and could actually see the tower.  I immediately switched to

another frequency, and heard traffic on the CTAF at KGYI, about 95NM

away.  I called them and asked for a radio check.  That pilot replied

that I was loud and clear.  Not wanting to bother the tower or cause

 trouble in their airspace, I turned away before entering.



I am baffled by this.  What would cause me to be unintelligable to the

KOUN tower repeatedly, when no one else has trouble understanding me,

even at long distances?  I was on a heading for the tower, and I know

 my transmission strength in that direction (forward) is good.  AND it

was only six miles away.



My only theory is that the tower doesn't like the wind noise in my

mic...but I have a noise cancelling mic, with a leather wind-blocking

 mic cover, AND other pilots report my transmissions as clear.



Any thoughts on what might cause this would be appreciated.  It is

difficult to trouble shoot because I have to bother the tower to

replicate the problem.

  [quote][b]

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

Hi All-



Sounds like perhaps it's time for phone calls to the tower chief to make

sure that he/she knows of the issue.  If that gets no results, a letter to

the regional office.  Make sure to delineate all the steps you guys have

taken to verify your own equipment ops.  



You can also call them to let them on the phone to coordinate a NORDO

arrival.  Just be sure to review the light gun signals.  Also, remember to

keep you Piet under 200 KIAS  



As an aside, I've a good friend who is a controller who has provided me

with various insights.  Included in those were that although they can't

upgrade equipment, they do get new leather furniture.  Makes one proud of

the system.



glen matejcek

aerobubba(at)earthlink.net

handainc(at)madisoncounty
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

Steve -



If you decide to call the tower chief, contact me off line and I will 

provide my info and approximate dates.  It is probably better for one of 

us rather than both to contact them, but I will be glad to provide 

support. 



M. Haught

glen matejcek wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi All-



 Sounds like perhaps it's time for phone calls to the tower chief to make

 sure that he/she knows of the issue.  If that gets no results, a letter to

 the regional office.  Make sure to delineate all the steps you guys have

 taken to verify your own equipment ops.  



 You can also call them to let them on the phone to coordinate a NORDO

 arrival.  Just be sure to review the light gun signals.  Also, remember to

 keep you Piet under 200 KIAS  



 As an aside, I've a good friend who is a controller who has provided me

 with various insights.  Included in those were that although they can't

 upgrade equipment, they do get new leather furniture.  Makes one proud of

 the system.



 glen matejcek

 aerobubba(at)earthlink.net

Fergus Kyle

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 291
Location: Burlington ON Canada

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

Cheers,

	A few emails indicated unfamiliarity with radio transmission and

reception.

	I ain't no expert, but Ham radio has useful lessons:

[1]	A message not acknowledged was not received;

[2]	A message not received was never sent;

[3]	Radios are actually two units, a receiver and a transmitter, seldom

on at once.



	The site of under-belly antenna might indicate a strange receiver

antenna site 	at the offending airfield. There are peculiar beliefs

amongst installers when it 	comes to siting. The site of the tower

antenna farm might just satisfy needs 	when the aircraft antenna is 8 feet

above ground, but not when within inches 	of the earth. Also, tower

folk ON OCCASION assume the qualities of a dish-	washer salesman -

vast knowledge, centuries-old experience and an 	assumption that

pilots are new and vulnerable.

	Plus, those tower antennas are out in the weather a thousand or more

times 	than aircraft ones, and probably get one thousandth the attention.

It might be 	that these two airfields share equal histories.

Ferg

gyoung

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Republic of Texas

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

I've called our tower a couple of times and found them to be very cordial

and very much interested to hear from pilots. If the chief/supv is not on

then ask for the controller in charge. It's amazing what you can learn and

what they are already aware of. I called about a "trainee" who after at

least a year on duty totally lost track of only 3 airplanes (I was one of

them) while working ground. Turns out that what everyone thought was a

trainee is a burn-out 2 weeks away from mandatory retirement. They were well

aware of the problem and keeping him on duties where he couldn't hurt

anyone. Yup, makes one proud of the system.



Regards,

Greg Young

 



[quote] --

handainc(at)madisoncounty
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

Cordiality wasn't in evidence at KOUN.  I was told in no uncertain terms that it wasn't their fault that my radio was junk, but they would give me light signals to get me out.  I tried to explain that I've had the radio worked on a number of times and their facility was the only place I was having any trouble, which was true at the time, and got the reply - "If you want light signals to get out, then tell me, but don't blame our equipment for your radio problems."  I was on a telephone talking to them from the service office - wouldn't see me face to face.  They see lots of high power stuff and cater to it - my old ratty looking Pacer was consider "junk".  I took the light signals and the radio was working fine by the time I got to the end of the taxiway.  Called up OK City immediately after leaving the pattern, had radio check and was told "five x five".  Next time I go in, (I've got my hand held set up on an external antenna as a backup radio ), as soon as I power down, I'm going to call up tower for radio check on the Icom, and then do the same thing with the handheld on rubber ducky antenna.  Next day, if I have problems, I'll try the rubber ducky antenna again, as using the external antenna on the hand held also resulted in unreadable transmissions.  Just doesn't make sense that two different radios are having the same problem on the same day.  

 

 M. Haught 

 

 

 Greg Young wrote: [quote]   [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Young" <gyoung(at)cs-sol.com> (gyoung(at)cs-sol.com)



I've called our tower a couple of times and found them to be very cordial

and very much interested to hear from pilots. If the chief/supv is not on

then ask for the controller in charge. It's amazing what you can learn and

what they are already aware of. I called about a "trainee" who after at

least a year on duty totally lost track of only 3 airplanes (I was one of

them) while working ground. Turns out that what everyone thought was a

trainee is a burn-out 2 weeks away from mandatory retirement. They were well

aware of the problem and keeping him on duties where he couldn't hurt

anyone. Yup, makes one proud of the system.



Regards,

Greg Young

 



       [quote]--

deej(at)deej.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

H. M. Haught Jr. wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Just doesn't make sense that two different radios are having the same 

 problem on the same day. 


	


    At KLEB I can't talk to the tower on any radio if I am in front of 

the big hangar.  If I taxi out 20-30 feet then it is a clear signal.  

You might both be correct - it is neither your radios or the tower 

radios, but simply a "radio dead zone" on one part of the taxiway on the 

ground due to interference of some sort.  Radio wave propagation can be 

an interesting beast.



-Dj



-- 

Dj Merrill - N1JOV

Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 N421DJ

http://deej.net/sportsman/



"Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an 

airplane."  --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005

matronics(at)rtist.nl
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

Just a thought on this.. Maybe your radio is actually transmitting a bit off 

frequency. Most radio's including those of other pilots are designed to 

operate at 25kHz channel space. If you are off by a few kHz they will still 

hear you load and clear.



However, the tower might already be equipped with 8.33kHz radio's. They use 

narrow channels to accomodate more frequencies, but this also means that a 

few kHz off really puts you near the edge of their channel. This can result 

in a situation where everyone with 25kHz equipment hears you just fine, but 

those with newer 8.33kHz radios can hardly hear you.



Have your radio checked out for frequency accuracy, every maintenance shop 

with a decent freqency counter can tell you if this is the issue.



Rob



---

handainc(at)madisoncounty
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

Rob - This isn't Steve, but I've had problems with KOUN too, as I've 

posted here. 



Last week a local radio tech and I checked nearly every frequency with a 

counter  - checked from each extreme range, in the center, and then on 

either side of the two frequencies that were giving me problems.  Radio 

was right on frequency with practically no deviation.  Even checked my 

handheld, both with rubber duckie antenna and the external mounted 

antenna.  All of them were right on spec.  Planning a trip back to KOUN 

in a couple of weeks, and intend to be ready for them!!  I just cannot 

find a single thing wrong with either of my radios.  But if there is 

something there, I want to correct the problem. 



M. Haught





Rob Turk wrote:

[quote] 



 Just a thought on this.. Maybe your radio is actually transmitting a 

 bit off frequency. Most radio's including those of other pilots are 

 designed to operate at 25kHz channel space. If you are off by a few 

 kHz they will still hear you load and clear.



 However, the tower might already be equipped with 8.33kHz radio's. 

 They use narrow channels to accomodate more frequencies, but this also 

 means that a few kHz off really puts you near the edge of their 

 channel. This can result in a situation where everyone with 25kHz 

 equipment hears you just fine, but those with newer 8.33kHz radios can 

 hardly hear you.



 Have your radio checked out for frequency accuracy, every maintenance 

 shop with a decent freqency counter can tell you if this is the issue.



 Rob



 ---

Bret Smith

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

Sounds to me like the tower controller and the radio shop repairman have

quite a gimmick going  

Bret Smith

ASN 1A3

Blue Ridge, Ga

www.FlightInnovations.com



--

_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp)

earl_schroeder(at)juno.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

-- "Bret Smith" <smithhb(at)tds.net> wrote:




Sounds to me like the tower controller and the radio shop repairman have

quite a gimmick going  



Way to go Bret!  I had not thought of that possibility.  



Make a deal with the tower.. if there is a problem the pilot pays, if no problem is found, the tower pays!  Wait a minute.  That should apply to lawyers too!!



Do not archive.

_____________________________________________________________

Click for a credit repair consultation, raise your FICO score.

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3m2LaCvCCQ72bKwjqniP7CCZT3E9poGv177tlRtkTIsQ9Bw9/

Mark Phillips in TN

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia, TN

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

In a message dated 02/14/2008 6:46:17 PM Central Standard Time, smithhb(at)tds.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Planning a trip back to KOUN in a couple of weeks,

and intend to be ready for them!! 	


 >>

 Perhaps a slip of the tongue, such as "KOUN tower, Piper 12345, 7 miles south, 3000 feet, landing KOUN" and see if they respond.  "Piper 12345 announce 3 mile left base for XX"  "Uhh, tower this is EXPERIMENTAL 12345, 7 south inbound- sorry for the mixup, I was in the Cherokee last time I came through."

  

 Maybe they just don't like Piets?

  

 Mark

 do not archive



The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards.  AOL Music takes you there.

  [quote][b]

_________________
From The PossumWorks...

ornerycuss2001(at)yahoo.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

You might try filing an ASRS.  NASA will follow up with the FAA which might get a real technician out there to check the tower's radios and maybe any dead spots on the field.



Greg



"H. M. Haught Jr. " <handainc(at)madisoncounty.net> wrote:[quote]        Cordiality wasn't in evidence at KOUN.  I was told in no uncertain terms that it wasn't their fault that my radio was junk, but they would give me light signals to get me out.  I tried to explain that I've had the radio worked on a number of times and their facility was the only place I was having any trouble, which was true at the time, and got the reply - "If you want light signals to get out, then tell me, but don't blame our equipment for your radio problems."  I was on a telephone talking  to them from the service office - wouldn't see me face to face.  They see lots of high power stuff and cater to it - my old ratty looking Pacer was consider "junk".  I took the light signals and the radio was working fine by the time I got to the end of the taxiway.  Called up OK City immediately after leaving the pattern, had radio check and was told "five x five".  Next time I go in, (I've got my hand held set up on an external antenna as a backup radio ), as soon as I power down, I'm going to call up tower for radio check on the Icom, and then do the same thing with the handheld on rubber ducky antenna.  Next day, if I have problems, I'll try the rubber ducky antenna again, as using the external antenna on the hand held also resulted in unreadable transmissions.  Just doesn't make sense that two different radios are having the same problem on the same day.  

 

 M. Haught 

 

 

 Greg Young wrote: [quote]   [quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Greg Young" <gyoung(at)cs-sol.com> (gyoung(at)cs-sol.com)  I've called our tower a couple of times and found them to be very cordial and very much interested to hear from pilots. If the chief/supv is not on then ask for the controller in charge. It's amazing what you can learn and what they are already aware of. I called about a "trainee" who after at least a year on duty totally lost track of only 3 airplanes (I was one of them) while working ground. Turns out that what everyone thought was a trainee is a burn-out 2 weeks away from mandatory retirement. They were well aware of the problem and keeping him on duties where he couldn't hurt anyone. Yup, makes one proud of the system.  Regards, Greg Young           [quote]--

bobf(at)feldtman.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: Why can't the tower hear me?

Filing the NASA safety form is the BEST idea you can do. I'd also make a copy and send it to the closest Fed Communication Commision (FCC) field office. Just cause they are both fed gov't doesn't necessarily mean they will "cover" for each other. A bad transmitter is a bad transmitter. FCC might jack 'em up a notch or two - at least make them uncofmortable in the new leather chairs as they talk on their vaccuum tube jurassic radios.

 

I'm not kiddin.



bobf



On 2/14/08, glen matejcek <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net (aerobubba(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "glen matejcek" <aerobubba(at)earthlink.net (aerobubba(at)earthlink.net)>



 Hi All-



 Sounds like perhaps it's time for phone calls to the tower chief to make

  sure that he/she knows of the issue.  If that gets no results, a letter to

 the regional office.  Make sure to delineate all the steps you guys have

 taken to verify your own equipment ops.



 You can also call them to let them on the phone to coordinate a NORDO

  arrival.  Just be sure to review the light gun signals.  Also, remember to

 keep you Piet under 200 KIAS  



 As an aside, I've a good friend who is a controller who has provided me

 with various insights.  Included in those were that although they can't

  [quote][b]

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