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Koolmat Installation
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ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:22 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Ok - time for another really dumb question.
I am about to instal the Koolmat insulation on my firewall. The Koolmat has a silicone side that will
withstand continuous temps up to 500�F and a fiberglass side rated to 1100�F. The Koolmat site indicates that the glue is applied to the fiberglass side. If the Koolmat is installed on the cabin side of the firwall, the silicone side is exposed to cabin temperature (ie much less than 500�F). This is also a fairly typical use of Koolmat in cars. If the Koolmat is installed on the engine side of the firewall (as I plan), the silicone side will be exposed to full heat of the engine compartment (may approach 500�F??). see http://www.koolmat.com/aircraft.shtml
Why won't the silicone break down when exposed to the full engine heat? What am I not understanding here??
cheers,
Ron
trying to finish like everyone else. [quote][b]


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VHMUM(at)bigpond.com
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:46 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Ron I have just installed Koolmat on firewall as a fix to what some are having with tunnel temps!
Temps will never get that high unless you have a fire!!

Went on easy .

chris 40388
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acs(at)acspropeller.com.a
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:24 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Chris, I saw your old machine MUM at the Wagga meeting. Very impressive!
Did you guys get your Koolmat local?
John 40315
Do not archive


From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris , Susie Darcy
Sent: Wednesday, 15 November 2006 2:45 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Koolmat Installation


Ron I have just installed Koolmat on firewall as a fix to what some are having with tunnel temps!

Temps will never get that high unless you have a fire!!



Went on easy .



chris 40388
[quote]
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ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:43 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

G'day John,

Got mine from Spruce. Ordered some high temp adhesive as well, but that made the whole shipment 'hazardous' and increased freight by almost A$600! - so I went without the $12 glue .

Gave my koolmat qustion some more thought - unlikely that temps at the engine side of the firewall will exceed 200F or so, but I'm still interested in knowing whether continuous exposure to high temps will break down the silicone.

How was Wagga? I flew Adel-Syd-Sing-LHR-TelAviv on the Saturday and flew past Wagga - saw the airfield but not see much activity at 37k feet. Got back last friday and unpacked my GRT EFIS/EIS. Finishing the turtle deck, avionics, wiring, doors and windows, but still not half way 'cause I have not yet installed the windshield - blast Tim O Smile

cheers
Ron

do not archive

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VHMUM(at)bigpond.com
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:43 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Hi John no I got it from Aircraft spruce 4feet with some other bits that were missing from kit (got sick of contacting Vans!)

Chris
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acs(at)acspropeller.com.a
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:30 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Hey Ron, “Wings over Wagga” wasn’t bad although it should’ve been called “Winds over Wagga”. I must admit I didn’t spend much time there once I’d seen VH-VDM, Doug Montagues -10. (O-540, good ole steam gauges) It is impressive to see the RV-10 in the flesh. It certainly stands out from the crowd (bias?)
I also had a look at the GRT’s on display with Jon Johanson and they’re a good unit. He pointed out it was most important to take the time to set them up correctly to get the most out of them.
Good to see your time away from home hasn’t slowed you up any.
John
40315
Do not archive



From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Sent: Wednesday, 15 November 2006 3:42 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Koolmat Installation


G'day John,



Got mine from Spruce. Ordered some high temp adhesive as well, but that made the whole shipment 'hazardous' and increased freight by almost A$600! - so I went without the $12 glue .



Gave my koolmat qustion some more thought - unlikely that temps at the engine side of the firewall will exceed 200F or so, but I'm still interested in knowing whether continuous exposure to high temps will break down the silicone.



How was Wagga? I flew Adel-Syd-Sing-LHR-TelAviv on the Saturday and flew past Wagga - saw the airfield but not see much activity at 37k feet. Got back last friday and unpacked my GRT EFIS/EIS. Finishing the turtle deck, avionics, wiring, doors and windows, but still not half way 'cause I have not yet installed the windshield - blast Tim O Smile



cheers

Ron



do not archive

[quote]
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Dunne
Sent: Wednesday, 15 November 2006 3:53 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Koolmat Installation

Chris, I saw your old machine MUM at the Wagga meeting. Very impressive!
Did you guys get your Koolmat local?
John 40315
Do not archive


From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris , Susie Darcy
Sent: Wednesday, 15 November 2006 2:45 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Koolmat Installation


Ron I have just installed Koolmat on firewall as a fix to what some are having with tunnel temps!

Temps will never get that high unless you have a fire!!



Went on easy .



chris 40388
[quote]
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dmaib@me.com



Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 455
Location: New Smyrna Beach, Florida

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:11 am    Post subject: Re: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Getting ready to install Koolmat on the firewall and am wondering what different methods have been used to secure it. Some have used dabs of red RTV and others seem to have used high temp glue of some sort. I would like to be able to look behind the stuff at annual inspection time. Any thoughts or comments, especially from those who are flying with Koolmat installed would be appreciated.

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David Maib
RV-10 #40559
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apilot2(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:26 am    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Opinions differ, but I would install it on the cabin side of the
firewall, for the exact reason you mention...you can inspect the
firewall better at annual time without anything covering the engine
side. Nothing to absorb oil and gas.
On the inside, in some areas you may be able to friction fit it. Any
glue/RTV will make it difficult to remove.

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 6:11 AM, dmaib(at)mac.com <dmaib(at)mac.com> wrote:
Quote:

Any thoughts or comments, especially from those who are flying with

Koolmat installed would be appreciated.
Quote:

do not archive

--------
David Maib
RV-10 #40559


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163980#163980



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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:48 am    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Kelly McMullen wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "Kelly McMullen" <apilot2(at)gmail.com> (apilot2(at)gmail.com)

Opinions differ, but I would install it on the cabin side of the
firewall, for the exact reason you mention...you can inspect the
firewall better at annual time without anything covering the engine
side. Nothing to absorb oil and gas.
On the inside, in some areas you may be able to friction fit it. Any
glue/RTV will make it difficult to remove.
Well, the problem with it inside the cabin is that it's almost impossible to get to it to look at it anyway. I'll put mine on the inside and secure it well so that it won't come loose. YMMV
Linn

[quote]
Quote:


On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 6:11 AM, dmaib(at)mac.com (dmaib(at)mac.com) <dmaib(at)mac.com> (dmaib(at)mac.com) wrote:
Quote:
--> RV10-List message posted by: "dmaib(at)mac.com" (dmaib(at)mac.com) <dmaib(at)mac.com> (dmaib(at)mac.com)
Any thoughts or comments, especially from those who are flying with
Koolmat installed would be appreciated.
Quote:
do not archive

--------
David Maib
RV-10 #40559


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=163980#163980




[b]


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Kearney(at)shaw.ca
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:59 am    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Kelly

As the Koolmat is fiberglass / silicone C I don 7t think oil and gas absorbtion will be a problem E
6nbsp;
In my opinion C placing the mat on the cabin 6nbsp; side of the firewall will defeat the purpose of the mat as there will be little protection from gases that could come through firewall penetrations E On the engine side C the mat would perhaps cover some of the cracks and holes that would otherwise allow the gases through E
6nbsp;
I don 7t know how much risk there would be of AL rivets melting in the case of an enine fire C 6nbsp;but I have seen a video of the VAN 6nbsp;AL vents melting under heat E If this is a risk C the mat on the firewall side would provide protection E
6nbsp;
I would ask the A 6amp;Ps on the lis to chime in on the issue of firewall inspections E I do note that the 6nbsp;Koolmat website shows th mats on the engine side of the firewall E See:
6nbsp;
http://www Ekoolmat Ecom/aircraft Eshtml 6nbsp; 6nbsp;
6nbsp;
Another product to consider is : CONTEGO from A/C Spruce E See:
6nbsp;
http://www Eaircraftspruce Ecom/catalog/cspages/contego Ephp
6nbsp;
Perhaps his could be used to protect the penetrations as well E
6nbsp;
Cheers
6nbsp;
Les Keaney
340643
C-GCWZ (reserved)
6nbsp;
6nbsp;
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apilot2(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:40 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Les, just my opinion, and industry practice. You want to be able to
have a clear view of the firewall. They do get cracks or wrinkles from
hard landings, etc. You cannot see that from inside the cabin and you
can't inspect it if you have an insulating cover over it. Any material
that has a fabric or fiberglass mat will absorb oil, ultimately a fire
risk. I'd rather let air do the cooling of the firewall. The
insulation on the inside will do just as well at insulating. Any
sealing should be done at the seams and penetration holes, and no
insulation will improve that. Every certificated aircraft has the
insulation on the cabin side of the firewall. With the wiring and
cables that penetrate the insulation wherever you mount it, you are
not going to take it off unless you are doing an engine change. Far
too much labor. Materials used on the firewall assembly should be fire
resistant. I heartily agree with those that replace the AL vent boxes
with SS.

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 11:37 AM, LES KEARNEY <Kearney(at)shaw.ca> wrote:
[quote] Kelly

As the Koolmat is fiberglass / silicone, I don't think oil and gas
absorbtion will be a problem.

In my opinion, placing the mat on the cabin side of the firewall will
defeat the purpose of the mat as there will be little protection from gases
that could come through firewall penetrations. On the engine side, the mat
would perhaps cover some of the cracks and holes that would otherwise allow
the gases through.

I don't know how much risk there would be of AL rivets melting in the case
of an enine fire, but I have seen a video of the VAN AL vents melting under
heat. If this is a risk, the mat on the firewall side would provide
protection.

I would ask the A&Ps on the lis to chime in on the issue of firewall
inspections. I do note that the Koolmat website shows th mats on the engine
side of the firewall. See:

http://www.koolmat.com/aircraft.shtml

Another product to consider is : CONTEGO from A/C Spruce. See:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/contego.php

Perhaps his could be used to protect the penetrations as well.

Cheers

Les Keaney
#40643
C-GCWZ (reserved)


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Kearney(at)shaw.ca
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:27 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Hi Kelly
6nbsp;
I understand the need for inspections but surely no RV10 pilot would ever admit to a hard landing E
6nbsp;
I think the difference in view is that I am thinking more in terms of fire protection rather than insulation E As well C could not the firewall inspection for creases etc be done from the cabin side? I would think that if a hard landing (not that I would admit to it) was a concern C I would want to look at the interior weldments that are visable only from the interior E
6nbsp;
The Koolmat could also be installed so that it could be lifted for inspection of the firewall E
6nbsp;
As far as oil is concerned C given that I am in line for a Subaru C expect that oil leaks will be just a not so found memory of life with m Lyc O-3060 E
6nbsp;
Cheers
6nbsp;
Les

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apilot2(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:55 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Have you ever stuck your head in the footwells of your Cherokee to see
how straight your firewall is?
Ever worked in a Subie engine compartment? So you can get antifreeze
and oil accumulations..eh?

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 3:10 PM, LES KEARNEY <Kearney(at)shaw.ca> wrote:
[quote] Hi Kelly

I understand the need for inspections but surely no RV10 pilot would ever
admit to a hard landing.

I think the difference in view is that I am thinking more in terms of fire
protection rather than insulation. As well, could not the firewall
inspection for creases etc be done from the cabin side? I would think that
if a hard landing (not that I would admit to it) was a concern, I would want
to look at the interior weldments that are visable only from the interior.

The Koolmat could also be installed so that it could be lifted for
inspection of the firewall.

As far as oil is concerned, given that I am in line for a Subaru, expect
that oil leaks will be just a not so found memory of life with m Lyc O-3060.

Cheers

Les
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rnewman(at)tcwtech.com
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:00 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

I'm going to use Koolmat on my RV-10, I'm planning on putting it on the firewall side for the following reasons.

1) The Silicon side of koolmat is quite impervious to oil and fluids.
2) Heat transfer is a function of three modes: Convection, Conduction and Radiation. Limiting heat transfer into the passanger compartment should best be accomplished by reducing each of these factors. Insulation on either side of the firewall will be effective at reducing conduction, (convection should not be an issue because there's no airflow over the firewall per se) However, Only by insulating the firewall side can we reduce the effects of radiation. The radiated heat of the engine and exhaust system will land on the firewall and heat the firewall. With insulation only on the cabin side, the firewall effectively is heated and re-radiates into the cabin. The insulation on the cabin side only slows the progress of heat flow into the cabin it doesn't prevent it from occuring. With insulation on the firewall side, the radiated energy cannot heat the firewall to begin with and therefore should provide less cabin heating.
3) Accoustically it should be quieter. For the same reasons as in # 2 for heat, accoustically it should be quiter if the firewall is not radiated with sound energy. Theoretically! will see in practice hopefully the end of this year.


So those our my reasons for insulating the firewall side. note, I do plan on corrosion proofing the rivets on the firewall side before applying the koolmat.

FWIW


Bob Newman
TCW Technologies
www.tcwtech.com
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wcurtis(at)nerv10.com
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:21 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Kelly,

Based on your concerns below, I think the Koolmat may be a waste of money for you. You may be better served by looking at a product designed specifically for the cabin side of the firewall.

By placing the Koolmat on the cabin side of the firewall, you eliminate one of the principal benefits of the Koolmat, that of reduction of radiant heating of the firewall and everything that is attached to it. The fibers in the Koolmat are impregnated and would be difficult to absorb moisture. Certainly being able to inspect the firewall is valuable, however I think this could be done from the cabin side.

I used red RTV and the engine mount to hold mine in place. The most challenging part was neatly making all the cutouts for the various items passing through the firewall.

William
http://wcurtis.nerv10.com/
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
-- Dr. Suess

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rv10builder(at)bellsouth.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:46 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

I installed mine per the manufacturers suggestions...

http://www.koolmat.com/aircraft.shtml

Brian Sutherland
40308
Wheelpants, Inspection, then Fly!!!

Kelly McMullen wrote:
[quote]

Les, just my opinion, and industry practice. You want to be able to
have a clear view of the firewall. They do get cracks or wrinkles from
hard landings, etc. You cannot see that from inside the cabin and you
can't inspect it if you have an insulating cover over it. Any material
that has a fabric or fiberglass mat will absorb oil, ultimately a fire
risk. I'd rather let air do the cooling of the firewall. The
insulation on the inside will do just as well at insulating. Any
sealing should be done at the seams and penetration holes, and no
insulation will improve that. Every certificated aircraft has the
insulation on the cabin side of the firewall. With the wiring and
cables that penetrate the insulation wherever you mount it, you are
not going to take it off unless you are doing an engine change. Far
too much labor. Materials used on the firewall assembly should be fire
resistant. I heartily agree with those that replace the AL vent boxes
with SS.

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 11:37 AM, LES KEARNEY <Kearney(at)shaw.ca> wrote:

> Kelly
>
> As the Koolmat is fiberglass / silicone, I don't think oil and gas
> absorbtion will be a problem.
>
> In my opinion, placing the mat on the cabin side of the firewall will
> defeat the purpose of the mat as there will be little protection from gases
> that could come through firewall penetrations. On the engine side, the mat
> would perhaps cover some of the cracks and holes that would otherwise allow
> the gases through.
>
> I don't know how much risk there would be of AL rivets melting in the case
> of an enine fire, but I have seen a video of the VAN AL vents melting under
> heat. If this is a risk, the mat on the firewall side would provide
> protection.
>
> I would ask the A&Ps on the lis to chime in on the issue of firewall
> inspections. I do note that the Koolmat website shows th mats on the engine
> side of the firewall. See:
>
> http://www.koolmat.com/aircraft.shtml
>
> Another product to consider is : CONTEGO from A/C Spruce. See:
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/contego.php
>
> Perhaps his could be used to protect the penetrations as well.
>
> Cheers
>
> Les Keaney
> #40643
> C-GCWZ (reserved)
>
>
> ---


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Kearney(at)shaw.ca
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Kelly
6nbsp;
Now you have outed me E The whole RV world now knows I am a closet Piper driver E E E E
6nbsp;
I have been under my Cherokee panel C its not that bad - not great but not bad E But I do take your point E
6nbsp;
Cheers
6nbsp;
Les

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apilot2(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

I'm glad there is a difference in your mind. That is the only place
you will find any difference in R value or acoustic value.
If it is on the front side, you will NOT be able to properly inspect
the firewall.

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 4:10 PM, Bob-tcw <rnewman(at)tcwtech.com> wrote:
Quote:


I'm going to use Koolmat on my RV-10, I'm planning on putting it on the
firewall side for the following reasons.

1) The Silicon side of koolmat is quite impervious to oil and fluids.
2) Heat transfer is a function of three modes: Convection, Conduction and
Radiation. Limiting heat transfer into the passanger compartment should
best be accomplished by reducing each of these factors. Insulation on
either side of the firewall will be effective at reducing conduction,
(convection should not be an issue because there's no airflow over the
firewall per se) However, Only by insulating the firewall side can we
reduce the effects of radiation. The radiated heat of the engine and
exhaust system will land on the firewall and heat the firewall. With
insulation only on the cabin side, the firewall effectively is heated and
re-radiates into the cabin. The insulation on the cabin side only slows
the progress of heat flow into the cabin it doesn't prevent it from
occuring. With insulation on the firewall side, the radiated energy cannot
heat the firewall to begin with and therefore should provide less cabin
heating.
3) Accoustically it should be quieter. For the same reasons as in # 2 for
heat, accoustically it should be quiter if the firewall is not radiated
with sound energy. Theoretically! will see in practice hopefully the
end of this year.
So those our my reasons for insulating the firewall side. note, I do plan
on corrosion proofing the rivets on the firewall side before applying the
koolmat.

FWIW
Bob Newman
TCW Technologies
www.tcwtech.com



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:28 pm    Post subject: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Sorry about that Les, I thought everyone knew about your steam powered
airplane. In fact some folks in your old neighborhood were asking if
the RV would also be steam powered.
Do not archive

On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 5:51 PM, LES KEARNEY <Kearney(at)shaw.ca> wrote:
[quote] Kelly

Now you have outed me. The whole RV world now knows I am a closet Piper
driver....

I have been under my Cherokee panel, its not that bad - not great but not
bad. But I do take your point.

Cheers

Les

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Lew Gallagher



Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Koolmat Installation Reply with quote

Hey Guys,

We're not this far yet, but very interested in the discussion. If removable insulation is desirable, is there a velcro product that could be used here?

Later, - Lew


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