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grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

After a long wait I finally got to fly my mark III today. What a nice flying airplane! Its amazing how much different it is in yaw stability vs a challenger II.  My instructor helped me get a lot of little things checked and fixed before flying. I got down there to his airport (2.25 hour drive) at 10 am and we finally finished a little after 4pm. He flew it at 4:30 to give it an initial check and by 5:30 I took my 1st flight in it with him!



The 503 performed very well just as good as his challenger. The Kolb will cruise nicely at 50 to 55mph at 5 to 5500 rpms..



Indicated stall speed seems a bit higher than i though it would be. Empty weight on the plane is 425# + me 150+ instructor 165+ fuel 60= 800# gross



Indicated power off  stall was around 43 mph clean no flaps. Does that sound about right? temp today was about 75 degrees elevation 185 MSL



Solo stall speed was about 41mph with a gross of about 700#. The plane has to have at least 195# in the seat to be within the W/B.



What kind of indicated stall speed are you all getting?

All in all I had a great time! I really like the Kolb! Landing is a tad tricky with the tail wheel but takeoffs are very easy.

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

Grant I will give you the same advice that Travis at TNK gave me when I was bending gear legs with great regularity. Learn to wheel land it like a sail plane and you'll find it's the sweetest landing airplane, tailwheel or no. Once you get that down you can start learning to three point it if you want, but you really should learn the wheel landing first. Just my opinion, but I have the hydraulic press time straightening landing gear legs to back it up. 

 

Rick



On Feb 16, 2008 10:08 PM, grantr <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com (grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com (grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com)>



After a long wait I finally got to fly my mark III today. What a nice flying airplane! Its amazing how much different it is in yaw stability vs a challenger II.  My instructor helped me get a lot of little things checked and fixed before flying. I got down there to his airport (2.25 hour drive) at 10 am and we finally finished a little after 4pm. He flew it at 4:30 to give it an initial check and by 5:30 I took my 1st flight in it with him!

 

The 503 performed very well just as good as his challenger. The Kolb will cruise nicely at 50 to 55mph at 5 to 5500 rpms..



Indicated stall speed seems a bit higher than i though it would be. Empty weight on the plane is 425# + me 150+ instructor 165+ fuel 60= 800# gross

 

Indicated power off  stall was around 43 mph clean no flaps. Does that sound about right? temp today was about 75 degrees elevation 185 MSL



Solo stall speed was about 41mph with a gross of about 700#. The plane has to have at least 195# in the seat to be within the W/B.

 

What kind of indicated stall speed are you all getting?

All in all I had a great time! I really like the Kolb! Landing is a tad tricky with the tail wheel but takeoffs are very easy.





Read this topic online here:

  [quote][b]

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

Oh, yeah, congrats on the first flight.



Rick



On Feb 16, 2008 10:31 PM, Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] Grant I will give you the same advice that Travis at TNK gave me when I was bending gear legs with great regularity. Learn to wheel land it like a sail plane and you'll find it's the sweetest landing airplane, tailwheel or no. Once you get that down you can start learning to three point it if you want, but you really should learn the wheel landing first. Just my opinion, but I have the hydraulic press time straightening landing gear legs to back it up. 

  

Rick

On Feb 16, 2008 10:08 PM, grantr <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com (grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "grantr" <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com (grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com)>



After a long wait I finally got to fly my mark III today. What a nice flying airplane! Its amazing how much different it is in yaw stability vs a challenger II.  My instructor helped me get a lot of little things checked and fixed before flying. I got down there to his airport (2.25 hour drive) at 10 am and we finally finished a little after 4pm. He flew it at 4:30 to give it an initial check and by 5:30 I took my 1st flight in it with him!

  

The 503 performed very well just as good as his challenger. The Kolb will cruise nicely at 50 to 55mph at 5 to 5500 rpms..



Indicated stall speed seems a bit higher than i though it would be. Empty weight on the plane is 425# + me 150+ instructor 165+ fuel 60= 800# gross

  

Indicated power off  stall was around 43 mph clean no flaps. Does that sound about right? temp today was about 75 degrees elevation 185 MSL



Solo stall speed was about 41mph with a gross of about 700#. The plane has to have at least 195# in the seat to be within the W/B.

  

What kind of indicated stall speed are you all getting?

All in all I had a great time! I really like the Kolb! Landing is a tad tricky with the tail wheel but takeoffs are very easy.





Read this topic online here:

       



[b]

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: Finally flying my MK III!!!

Grant,



Your experience with the higher stall speeds is normal.  Adding VG's to your Kolb will get that stall speed down to where you want it.  I had close to the same stall speeds with my MK III Xtra, which is much heavier than yours, and putting VG's on it made a new airplane out of it, not just in stall speed, but the way it felt throughout the lower speed range.  Below is a shot of my panel during slow, right on the edge of stall, level flight.   



I put about 140 VG's on my wings, from the center right out to the very tips of the wings.  Its critical to install them very precisely, but if you do you will be well rewarded.



Mike

AerialUltralightKolbMikePerformanceFloridaHomestead07-09-2007-009.JPG

Description:

Level flight with VG's

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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:53 am Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

> I put about 140 VG's on my wings, from the center right out to the very 

tips of the wings.  Its critical to install them very precisely, but if you 

do you will be well rewarded.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mike


	




Mike B:



Has a critically precise location been established for placement of VG's on 

Kolb wings?



Of note when determining stall speeds in Kolbs.  Kolbs are notorious for 

creating a low pressure area in the cockpit.  If your pressure gauges are 

not being fed an accurate source of static pressure, indications will be 

wrong.  It does not take much static pressure error to indicate large 

airspeed errors.  Most Kolb aircraft I have flown in this situation have air 

speed indicators that are at least10 mph fast.



In days past, I flew with a very accurate Winter Venturi Operated Air Speed 

Indicator on my Ultrastar and Firestar.  This airspeed indicator was 

designed for gliders and is extremely accurate, especially at slow speeds, 

since we take "static pressure" out of the equation.  My US and FS both 

stalled at exactly 25 mph indicated.  As long as the needle was on 25 mph it 

was flying.  Let the needle drop a needle width below 25 and they were 

mushing.



My mkIII stalls between 30 and 35 mph at altitude.  It breaks as the needle 

is going through 30 in ground effect.



Why is there such a large difference, 15 to 20 mph, in stall speeds between 

these three aircraft and Kolbs being flown today?  I build heavy airplanes, 

normally flown with a lot of barn dust on top of wings and tail surfaces.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

At 08:50 AM 2/17/2008, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Of note when determining stall speeds in Kolbs.  Kolbs are notorious for 

creating a low pressure area in the cockpit.  If your pressure gauges are 

not being fed an accurate source of static pressure, indications will be 

wrong.  It does not take much static pressure error to indicate large 

airspeed errors.  Most Kolb aircraft I have flown in this situation have 

air speed indicators that are at least10 mph fast.


	


I don't have a "cockpit" on my US, but yes, it stalled at an indicated 35 

mph.  The previous owner hadn't connected the ASI's static port so it was 

just reading the low pressure inside the instrument pod.  Every time I 

moved my foot the reading changed.  Making a proper concentric pitot/static 

tube fixed that, though I still have to calibrate it a bit better.



Anybody know how accurate the old Hall (floating disk) airspeed indicators 

are?  I borrowed one from a friend to check my ASI, but cold weather has 

kept me from getting a chance to mount it yet.



-Dana

--

  Of all the forces in the world, only the Federal Government has enough 

power left to destroy America.

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Finally flying my MK III!!!

Mike,



After I finish the repairs on my FS I, I plan to put VGs on it. You stated that precise location of the VGs is important. Since all the Kolb wings use the same airfoil (I've heard) I would think what works for the MkIII will work pretty well with the rest of the Kolbs. Would you post the details of your VG installation?  Various Kolbers have posted their methods of locating their VGs but, I'd like to hear about yours too.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:18 am Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

Dana, that feature could be handy, a life-saver in fact!  If you feel  

you are about to stall

just move your foot a little and resume flying.  Patent applied for.

BB

do not archive

On 17, Feb 2008, at 9:50 AM, Dana Hague wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 08:50 AM 2/17/2008, John Hauck wrote:

> Of note when determining stall speeds in Kolbs.  Kolbs are  

> notorious for creating a low pressure area in the cockpit.  If  

> your pressure gauges are not being fed an accurate source of  

> static pressure, indications will be wrong.  It does not take much  

> static pressure error to indicate large airspeed errors.  Most  

> Kolb aircraft I have flown in this situation have air speed  

> indicators that are at least10 mph fast.

 I don't have a "cockpit" on my US, but yes, it stalled at an  

 indicated 35 mph.  The previous owner hadn't connected the ASI's  

 static port so it was just reading the low pressure inside the  

 instrument pod.  Every time I moved my foot the reading changed.   

 Making a proper concentric pitot/static tube fixed that, though I  

 still have to calibrate it a bit better.

 Anybody know how accurate the old Hall (floating disk) airspeed  

 indicators are?  I borrowed one from a friend to check my ASI, but  

 cold weather has kept me from getting a chance to mount it yet.

 -Dana

 --

  Of all the forces in the world, only the Federal Government has  

 enough power left to destroy America.

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Finally flying my MK III!!!

Not sure how to wheel land a sail plane but I think my instructors has the landings down.



The 1st few test flights he was making the approaches at 60mph and on his 2nd landing the plane landed on the tail wheel 1st which then resulted in a rather hard main wheel landing! Luckily it didn't bent the gear!



Almost all of or landings were at idle. 



Anyway he proceeded to approach a bit faster 65 to 70 and that resulted in feather like touchdowns on the mains 1st.



I am interested in the VGs as well. Do you have a plan/ drawing to follow to make these? Did you use aluminum flashing material? 



I don't know where the static port is for the asi right now. I think it might be run under the seats. Where should it be located to correct the airspeed?

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:40 am Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

> Anybody know how accurate the old Hall (floating disk) airspeed 

indicators

 	  Quote: 	
		   are?  I borrowed one from a friend to check my ASI, but cold weather has 

 kept me from getting a chance to mount it yet.



 -Dana


	




Dana:



If you have the bucks, this is the way to go for accurate airspeed 

indication.  I notice the Winter Venturi ASI range is up to 100 mph.  Back 

in the early 1980's range topped out at 75 mph.  The price is about 5 times 

as much too.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:50 am Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

> If you have the bucks, this is the way to go for accurate airspeed

 	  Quote: 	
		   indication.


	


http://www.airstuff.com/eshop/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=WINASI-Venturi



Before everybody gets their panties in a wad, here is the url I forgot to 

post in my last.



jhauck

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Finally flying my MK III!!!

I have had an outside static source on my Kolb from the beginning, so there are no pressure errors in my system.   I have also checked my airspeed readings with the GPS you see in the picture under no wind conditions, and again everything is accurate.



Precise placement of the VG's has been determined by the manufacturer, they are not airplane specific, but its about the same for most general aviation airfoils.  The angles of the VG's into the wind are especially critical as is thier design.  I put them on exactly per the instructions, and the result was an incredible difference.  You can get the VG's at:



http://www.landshorter.com/



There is another Kolb MK III with a 912 based at my field, its "Fat Albert" as some of you remember that plane.  The difference between landing that plane and landing my plane is huge, the other MK III has to be landed very fast, and with power to keep it from dropping hard onto the runway much the same as described by Grant.   My MK III can be landed engine off, approaching at 50 MPH and result in a soft landing.  The "Fat Albert" pilot could not believe the difference between the two MK III's.    



In a nutshell, the VG's eliminate the "Kolb Quit" where the plane just drops into the runway if you get it to slow.   I generally do three point landings, but many times I touch the tailwheel first at less than 30 MPH indicated, no problem, the mains just come down very nicely.  I will take some videos of this and post them on You Tube.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Finally flying my MK III!!!

Mike,



Many of us make our own VGs and would like to know the precise location (and angle) you used per the manufacturer's instructions. Will you give us this information? Of course, you are under no obligation to do so but, if I don't ask, I won't know. How about it?

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

At 08:50 AM 2/17/2008, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>



 

 > I put about 140 VG's on my wings, from the center right out to the very tips of the wings.  Its critical to install them very precisely, but if you do you will be well rewarded.

  	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mike 	
	




  If you are going to use the "Landshorter" VG's  you would naturally follow their instructions on where to put them, as they seem to have already done the wind tunnel tests and are selling them to the ultralight community knowing the type of planes we are putting them on. Mine are at the suggested 10% to 12% (of the cord of the wing - including the ailerons) back from the leading edge = about 6.5 inches as measured thru the cord.  www.landshorter.com I went to an "auto paint store" and got the "good" double stick tape.

  Automotive Acrylic Plus Attachment Tape

  Stick it on the bottoms of the VGs, then cut around the edges with an 

  exacto knife.

  When you putting them on your wings, you just pull the paper off the 

  botton and stick them down.

  Haven lost one yet.

  The instructions say put them on 10 to 12% of the wing cord (including the

  ailerons)

  back from the leading edge.  Too far forward and they will slow down the cruise

  speed, too far back and they become ineffective.



  I put mine about 11% or 6 1/2 inches back from the leading edge as measured

  through the middle of the cord of the wing - average cord.

  But you better check with the instructions.



  The instructions say VG's should be placed about 1% of the wingspan apart.

  I have a 27' 9" wing span.

  So I put two in each valley and used the 2.75 inch spacing guide

  to "kind of space them out" between each rib and false rib etc.

  Just a guess, but it seemed to work out OK.

  I used the guide they sent with the little "rectangles" cut

  out where the VG's go, so I could just stick them in the holes

  and move the guide to the next valley.

  I just put two on at a time and moved the guide to the next set of ribs.

  I used the T-square method like Ben Ransom for the set back



  It took more time to put the tape on each VG than it did

  to put the VGs on the plane.

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_________________
Possum

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Finally flying my MK III!!!

Sure Tom,



The angle into the wind is 15 degrees " Nose In " between each rib valley.  Spacing is 2 1/2 inches all across the wing, but centered in each rib valley.  They are placed 10 % of the chord back from the leading edge of the wing.   I am flying at work right now, but if you like I will give you the measurements of the VG's when I get home.  BTW, the VG's at www.landshorter.com are cheap, only 100 dollars per 100, and they are much nicer looking and stronger than I could ever make them.   Attached is a picture of the VG's on my plane, I used about 140 of them.



Mike

UltralightKolbMikezVGsFloridaHomestead07-11-2007-176.JPG

Description:

VG's on my MK III Xtra

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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Finally flying my MK III!!!

Thanks, Possum. Very helpful.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: Re: Finally flying my MK III!!!

One Correction,



Possums is correct about the spacing being 10 % -  12 % of the wing cord back from the leading edge, I put them right in the middle at 11 %.   Also, remember not to measure the curved part of the wing, that distance is straight back from the leading edge not measuring along the curve of the wing.  I used a carpenters L up against the leading edge of the wing, with the side of the L parallel with the bottom of the wing to measure this distance.  This way I could measure accurately how far back on the top of the wing without the curve in the airfoil throwing my measurement off.



On the MK III the ribs are spaced at 5 inches apart, so 2 1/2 inches allows you to center them in the valleys and have constant spacing along the entire wing.   You might have to vary the spacing just a hair between VG's from one valley to the next to get them in the middle each valley, but they recommend that each "Pair" be centered in each valley.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

ez(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

On Feb 17, 2008, at 8:50 AM, John Hauck wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		    normally flown with a lot of barn dust on top of wings and tail  

 surfaces.


	


Ah, but  your barn dust  must be strategically and critically precise  

located barn dust.  < g >

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

Grant



Congratulations on your first flight.



You are getting alot of information from some low time Kolb pilots and some 

of it is good. I'm also a low time Kolb pilot in comparison to John H and 

others. The information I would like to give you is Kolbs fly just fine as 

they were designed.



VGs likely help but don't help as much as you are being led to believe. In a 

recent side by side fly off the difference wasn't real noticeable.



John H correctly made a point that airspeed indicators in Kolbs can be 

inaccurate and at higher angles of attack they get even more so.



The term I hear "kolb quit" is plain and simple a stall no matter how much 

these newbies want to believe otherwise. Our airplanes slow down very 

quickly when you flair for landing. This is a good thing but if your not 

ready for it, it will bite you. There are at least three ways to deal with 

it. Land faster, land with power, and/or flair closer to the ground. VGs 

will help some but it still takes airspeed to provide lift. Using flaps 

makes it slow down quicker so don't use them till you are proficient in your 

airplane.



I almost always do three point landings and some times tail wheel first and 

usually grease it in. No I don't have VGs. Three point landings are easer 

for me and I land slower so....



As usual the advice is worth what you paid for it.



Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: Finally flying my MK III!!!

 	  Quote: 	
		   Ah, but  your barn dust  must be strategically and critically precise

 located barn dust.  < g >


	




Gene:



I tried a Kolb Archive search, but turned up nada on "strategically and 

critically precise located barn dust".



If I hang out long enough, somebody will adddress this problem.



I flew down to Lucedale, MS, last week, with a load of barn dust, bug crap, 

and cow manure.  Did 380 sm in 4.2 hours.  Believe if I cleaned her up I 

could have done a lot better.  Every time I wash my 1992 Dodge/Cummins it 

seems to run twice as good.  Maybe I should try that with the mkIII.



Reference VG's:  I flew a FSII with VG's last October in SE Oregon.  After 

we got her tuned and tightened up, the major difference I could determine 

from a clean wing and VG wing was landing.  I think my Bassett Hound Ernie 

could grease that FSII on with VG's.  Landings seemed to be a no brainer. 

Low time pilots should have no problem greasing them on.



Other than landings, I couldn't find any other improvement over the clean 

wing.  My test was not all inclusive.  I did not do top speed WOT flight. 

Did a lot of stalls in different configurations, but no spins.



For my money, I'll continue to fly my Kolbs clean, as I have for a long 

time.  Should I get to the point I can no longer make a satisfactory landing 

with a clean wing, then I'll probably quit flying.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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