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Fuel System - What should I add?

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ptiller(at)lolacars.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

Hi,



I'm moving on with my build and am now thinking about the fuel system.  The tank and cockpit module are still out and so I have a blank canvas with regards to what I can do.



I note that various mods are available for this namely:  Mod 33 (Water Drain Valves), Mod 49 (Fuel Filter mod) and Mod 60 (Electric contents gauge).



 	  Quote: 	
		  From that list, Mod 49 sounds like a good idea as does Mod 33.  What do people think about Mod 60??  I'm favouring the 'keep it simple' approach on this build and would think that the sight gauge is a nice simple idea.  I've had a look at some previous comments on all this and it seems that maybe it isn't.


	


Anyway, what fuel system mods do people think are necessary and why?



Thanks,



Phil

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Fuel System - What should I add?

Phil,



You do not mention where you are.  Are you restricted to PFA

approval?

_________________
Ira N224XS

TheSchultzFamily(at)comca
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

Phil,

Sight gauge is a great quick look item during your walk around. I

"calibrated" mine with ty-wraps every 4 gallons. In flight you can still get

around to see it. I did place mine between the seats on the front side of

the back support. I HIGHLY recommend a fuel flow sensor Grand rapids,

Flowscan 450... Some thing that is accurate. I use the flowscan 450 with my

914 and with the flow and return sensor I am accurate to just about the last

drop out of the tank. There is a comm. Line available with most every flow

sensor to take GPS data and give you estimated gallons used , remaining and

time to empty.. All much more useful that F / 3/4 / 1/2 and empty.



I ran out of fuel once in a rented 172 with a stuck float and badly setup

engine and prop combination.... Flow sensors are the way to go with a sight

gauge as a quick look during your preflight and a cross check during flight.

--

ptiller(at)lolacars.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

Hi,



Sorry, yes, I'm in the UK and will be operating under PFA (now LAA) rules.



Phil

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

Phil, I would scrap the supplied filters and install an Andair

minigascolator under the luggage bay with a water drain in the bottom of it

with access thru a small flap beneath the plane. Also like Rich, strongly

recommend a fuel flow system if you can afford it. Only go for one with

Floscan transducer/s, such as JPI Fuel Scan 450. You then know precisely how

much fuel you have at any one time and can also accurately predict how far

you can travel at any one speed. If under LAA (ex PFA) jurisdiction you need

to keep the sight gauge in some form as a back up, but the rest you can

forget.

Regards, David Joyce, G-XSDJ

---

loboloda(at)execulink.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

Phil,



I've found the sight gauge to be useless in flight ( mine is between  

the seats)

The tubing quickly discolours and even with a float in the tubing I  

needed a flashlight

to check the level.

I've just installed a Westach fuel gauge and sender and removed the  

sight gauge,  I should have done it during the

build process, would have made life much easier.



I've never found any water in the water drain valves, so as yet have  

not found that mod to be of much use.

I tend to think that the gascolator on its own would have been enough.



Dave A061

On 15-Feb-08, at 8:39 AM, flyingphil2 wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <ptiller(at)lolacars.com>



 Hi,



 I'm moving on with my build and am now thinking about the fuel  

 system.  The tank and cockpit module are still out and so I have a  

 blank canvas with regards to what I can do.



 I note that various mods are available for this namely:  Mod 33  

 (Water Drain Valves), Mod 49 (Fuel Filter mod) and Mod 60 (Electric  

 contents gauge).



> From that list, Mod 49 sounds like a good idea as does Mod 33.   

> What do people think about Mod 60??  I'm favouring the 'keep it  

> simple' approach on this build and would think that the sight  

> gauge is a nice simple idea.  I've had a look at some previous  

> comments on all this and it seems that maybe it isn't.



 Anyway, what fuel system mods do people think are necessary and why?



 Thanks,



 Phil

 Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Fuel System - What should I add?

I also have found my between the seats level tube to be completely

unreliable!  I am designing a new fuel weight / quantity system, not too

different that previously published here.  I'm just using more expensive 

probes with amplification and temp compensation. Pity PFA wouldn't

like it (NIH syndrome)

_________________
Ira N224XS

gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

 	  Quote: 	
		  The tubing quickly discolours and even with a float in the tubing I  

needed a flashlight

to check the level.

Dave A061


	


Dave,

How quickly does the tubing discolor? Are we talking months, years, or?

Regards,

Greg

loboloda(at)execulink.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

Hi Greg,



Using Auto gas , the tubing would discolour in a few months.



My inspector would not accept the original tubing as it showed signs  

of deterioration,

I replaced this with clear polyurethane, then tried the blue Bing   

fuel line from A.S.

They all discoloured, and in flight I never had any worthwhile  

indication of the fuel level.



The Westach is non linear due to the tank shape, but was easy to  

install, and I now know

when I'm down to the last 20 litres.



Dave



On 15-Feb-08, at 3:05 PM, Greg Fuchs (FB) wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <gregoryf.flyboy(at)comcast.net>



> The tubing quickly discolours and even with a float in the tubing I

> needed a flashlight

> to check the level.

> Dave A061



 Dave,

 How quickly does the tubing discolor? Are we talking months, years,  

 or?

 Regards,

 Greg

fklein(at)orcasonline.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I also have found my between the seats level tube to be completely

 unreliable!


	


Ira,



Does the tubing leading to your "between the seats level tube" 

incorporate the supplied flow restrictor?



I have installed the flow restrictor in tubing leading to the typical 

footwell sight gauge...still under construction so I've no performance 

data. I have also installed a "between the seats" sight gauge, using 

Acft Spruce rigid pipe (sold as a Quickie fuel sight gauge) thinking 

that it would be most useful during refueling since it is readily 

visable; however, since I've assumed that the flow restrictor would 

create a time lag between what's in the tank and what shows on the 

sight gauge, I've omitted it. And FWIW, I've also installed the Europa 

mod fuel gauge.



Fred

-- 

This message has been scanned for viruses and

dangerous content by MailScanner, and is

believed to be clean.

craigb(at)onthenet.com.au
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:13 pm Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

Yep I went the westach fuel sender also, so it can talk to EFIS or just a

gauge, and ditched

the europa fliters in place of a gascolator with access through a hatch so

the bottom is clean

with no BITS hanging out. A lot of builders are also switching the rubber

hose for teflon lined stuff

or alloy lines with flare type fittings. Not sure if this is allowed by the

PFA (LAA) though.



craig



--

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel System - What should I add?

Hi All,



I agree that the Europa-supplied tubing discolors to yellow

within months.  Still transparent though.  If you place the diagonal

bars behind the tubing, the change in index of refraction makes

finding the meniscus much easier.  I also have run a strip of LED tape

alongside the sight tube for twilight / night ops.



For the the first 2 years of flying, I had no flow restrictor at the base

of the sight gauge.  The contents of the gauge was always high and the

tubing started to craze after 2 years.  When I replaced the tubing,

I discovered why it always was high at least.  I discovered that the 

upholsterer that FlightCrafter has found for me had stuffed the section of 

tubing from the top of the sight gauge to the vent line so tightly at the

back of the cockpit module that it was irretrievably crimped AND stuck

so I could not dislodge it.  I had to route a new vent return line and when

I replaced the cruddy sight tubing, I added the restricter.  I can't really

say that the accuracy is much improved over the following year.

_________________
Ira N224XS

kevann(at)gotsky.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

Hi All,



On a related note, regarding the Long Range Tank from Europa. I have 

plumbed mine in a bit differently than the factory directions.I 

installed G.S. fuel outlets so that I could use AN fittings on the 

primary tank.. I elected to not install a sight gauge, which left me 

with an unused threaded port on both main and reserve outlets.So I 

plumbed the long range outlet into the main tank outlet. This will make 

most all fuel in the long range tank usable, as opposed to the factory 

method of connecting to the reserve side at the filler fitting, which 

means you have more reserve, but you can't really use it unless you want 

to fly down to bottom of the reserve!



If anyone can think of a problem with this setup, please let me know...



Kevin

paul.the.aviator(at)gmail
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

Hi all,



My aircraft has been flying for 3 years, 700 hours and so far the fuel

system I have installed is working well.  Here is what I did.



1. Discarded the dual Europa filters

2. Installed a single gascolator

3. Installed the fuel totalizer system for my EIS

4. My fuel gauge system weighs the fuel in the tank and displays it on

a 10 bar LED segment.  It works perfectly, and gets around all of the

sight gauge / capacitance probe issues.

5. I used fuel injection hose instead of standard automotive rubber hose

6. I installed an aluminum elbow into the fuel tank.

7. I have the water drains and gascolator accessible via a single

hatch under the aircraft.



Take a look at  http://www.europa.net.nz/363/index.html under Jan 2001

for a few photos.



What would I do different ?

1. Use an Andiar fuel selector.

2. Use two gascolators, one for each side of the tank

3. Use very thin Nyloflow hose for the fuel/water drain feeds.

4. Install aluminum fuel lines, which is quite an undertaking.



Ron Parigoris has posted a bunch of photos on the

http://www.europaowners.org site.  Knowing what I know now I would

probably do something similar.



Just my 2 cents worth.



Paul

steven.pitt2(at)ntlworld.
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:52 am Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

I am surprised by the comments about the between the seats sight tube. I 

have had mine installed for 3 to 4 years although only been flying the 

aircraft for 1 1/2 years. In this time I have found it to be a useful gauge 

before and during flight, although you need to crane your neck to see in 

flight. Yes it has discoloured but with the 'barber pole' tape behind the 

tube the meniscus of the fuel is clear to see.

I do not have a fuel flow meter, just a fuel sender in the main tank 

(official club mod) and by calculation and observation I have been quite 

clear as to what fuel I have in the aircraft. When returning from 

Switzerland last year we were getting low but were able to see when the 

sight gauge showed down to the saddle and we changed tanks to reserve before 

we got any fuel stutter. We still had at least 3/4 hour fuel when we landed.

Regards

Steve Pitt

G-SMDH

rpwheelwright(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:32 am Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

I too am at the same stage as you Phil, and looking at different options. I do like Grahams Singleton’s Fuel mod. Which incorporates the fuel/water drains at the tank outlet. I would be interested to know if any UK LLA permit aircraft have used this method? Has any one had any problems with Ali hard line piping? Against using rubber tubing. Any picture would be helpful.

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

hagargs(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

Dump the plastic fuel tank its too much a pain in the  a_ _ to cut the

plane apart to get it out if it cracks! 



Steve Hagar

A143

Mesa AZ

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: flyingphil2 <ptiller(at)lolacars.com>

 To: <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 2/15/2008 6:53:02 AM

 Subject: Fuel System - What should I add?



 



 Hi,



 I'm moving on with my build and am now thinking about the fuel system. 

The tank and cockpit module are still out and so I have a blank canvas with
	


regards to what I can do.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I note that various mods are available for this namely:  Mod 33 (Water

Drain Valves), Mod 49 (Fuel Filter mod) and Mod 60 (Electric contents
	


gauge).

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 >From that list, Mod 49 sounds like a good idea as does Mod 33.  What do

people think about Mod 60??  I'm favouring the 'keep it simple' approach on
	


this build and would think that the sight gauge is a nice simple idea. 

I've had a look at some previous comments on all this and it seems that

maybe it isn't.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Anyway, what fuel system mods do people think are necessary and why?



 Thanks,



 Phil

 Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

josok-e(at)ukolo.fi
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

Graham's fuel mods, "versatube" alu lines and AN fittings. Andair fuel valve, with secured "off"position, andair gascolator, no in line filters. No gauze on the fuel tank outlets. Long range tank, all vents to he filler tube, one vent from the top  of the filler ending behind the flap. One way valve as extra vent into the cockpit.  Indicator tube between the seats. original supply, no discoloring. Capacitive fuel level sensor, which is checked to the 0-quarter-half 3quart and full positions on mogas. Switch to break the output of the 2nd fuel flow sensor, which gives the total throughput of the fuel system. So far, 51 hrs, happy. Problem was one bad flange n the versatube, leaking fuel. New flange,problem gone. Pictures on http://www.europaowners.org/kit600 fuel system. 



Regards,



Jos Okhuijsen

Visit -  www.EuropaOwners.org

europa(at)pstewart.f2s.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: Fuel System - What should I add?

A few thoughts.   The PFA will accept alternatives to the sight guage  

- they require two independent methods of determining fuel quantity.  

They have accepted our system based on the avalec capacitance gauge  

(what ever you think of it) as one and the other is the ability to  

dip the tank (as per 150's etc) via a 1/2"BSP hole in the Avalec  

mounting plate. They made no comment about loosing the sight gauge.    

Grahams tank fittings were developed from ours and again the PFA  

(sorry LAA) are happy with our system. It is also aluminum fuel line  

with SS braided teflon hose connecting to the engine itself. There  

are some pics in the forum gallery.  I have the PFA application  

somewhere if anyone in the UK needs the reference to help with their  

own applications to LAA.



Regards



Paul

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