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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
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 Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:19 am Post subject: project engine |
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For those with ambition, patience, and maybe a high mental pain
threshold
here's something to look at:
(paste at eBay) 130201933456
BB
do not archive
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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:54 am Post subject: project engine |
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Bob/All
This would be a very inexpensive option for a Kolb. It would be a bit low on
power for one of the big Kolbs but with a two bladed prop, for slightly more
thrust, it might work ok. Robert seems happy. The laydown engine
configuration (more specifically the redrive or prop center line) might
allow one to use the stock Kolb engine mount. The lower thrust of this
engine would allow it to work with a slightly higher thrust line than an
engine with lots of thrust.
There has been talk of using a turbo on these engines. Wouldn't the turbo
shorten the life of the engine quite a bit? Would it become dangerous? If
the engine were designed to use a turbo and only used on takeoff maybe? Even
so you would have to run the engine at a higher power level than it is
designed for to even get a 65MPH cruise?
Would this be a better choice for a Firestar II??
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC
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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:16 pm Post subject: project engine |
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Rick N.,
If a person put a mild turbo on that one liter engine, I do not think it would shorten the life of the engine to any depreciable degree. The turbo I am mounting on my GEO 1.0L engine is about the littlest turbo you ever saw, in fact, I bet it is the littlest turbo you ever saw!! It is made by Garrett, the 1544 model, made for engines around 800 to 1000cc range. By its size alone, it couldn't produce much boost. Besides it's own limitations, I don't want it to put out too much boost. The stock engine computer can handle barimetric changes up to 5-6psi (above atmospheric). Meaning, if I limit the boost to 5psi, the O2 sensor and MAP (manifold air pressure) sensor can adjust the fuel flow automatically, by way of the standard throttle body fuel injection.
Most peoples knowledge of turbos come from automobile applications. In those situations, the engines are made to be borderline timebombs, sometimes doubling or tripling the original engines hp and torque rating. I read all kinds of ads on eBay about people claiming this turbo will produce 20lbs or 30 pounds , etc. of boost. For an airplane that would be obscene!! For a dragcar it's really cool! (for a few minutes)
For those that aren't very familiar with turbos and boost, here is some basics:
A normally aspirated engine has to suck air in as the pistons are on their downstroke. Atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi at sea level. As your car engine is running, the ECU (Electronic Control Unit) computer, by way of the fuel injection, supplies the perfect amount of fuel at a given atmospherpressure. If you climb in elevation,,,say, from Long Beach to Denver, the computer senses less oxygen (by way of the O2 sensor) and leans the fuel to the appropriate amount. If you happen to drive "down" to Death Valley where you are below sea level, the the computer richen the fuel level a bit, because atmospheric pressure is slightly greater below sea level. This ability to adjust the fuel/air ratio is one of the HUGE advantages of using an auto engine conversion. Especially if you are going to put a MILD turbo on it. If you want to build a screamer, then that's another matter, but for a little bit of boost, then things are just fine.
So, what the heck does adding boost do? Here's what:
Remember we said barometric pressure is 14.7 psi. According to the fundamentals of physics, if an engine is running properly with it's fuel/air ratio, and it is normally aspirated, and this engine produces....say 100 HP at 3900 rpm. If you force more air....say about 5 psi, by way of a turbo, and the computer makes the appropriate fuel adjustment, we will have increased the power the same amount as the boost percentage of atmospheric...which we said is 1/3 of atmospheric (we are assuming the 5psi is about 1/3rd of 14.7...yeah, I know, but it's close) Our power output in this example is now increased by 1/3rd, namely 133 HP. That's a fact, and one of the fundamentals of a "heat engine" (If you took Thermodynamics in college.) If we add 15 lbs. of boost(which would be 2 atmospheric pressures, our engine will produce TWICE it's original HP output, and if we give it 30 psi (that would be 3 atmos pressures, etc.)and so on.
But as usual, in physics, there ain't no free lunch, as they say!!! You do not get every bit of your added boost back in usable performance. Some energy is used up in turning the turbo (or supercharger, which is a belt driven turbo). Some energy is lost in the added back-pressure of spinning the turbo. So, you do lose "some" of the added power, to normal devices and friction, etc. to acheive this extra power, but you do get to keep the lion's share in raw added performance!!
In my particular application, I have a run-of-the-mill basic grocery getter GEO Metro engine. About 1000cc, and supposedly puts out about 62 HP. By adding a small turbo, I should see around 75-80 HP, and about 107 ftlbs. of torque. The GEO achieves these torque and horsepower figures of performance at about 1000rpm less than a Rotax 912 does.
A quick check of the Rotax 912 performance numbers says the 912UL has about 76 ftlbs of torque (at)4800 rpm. The 912S has about 96 ftlbs of torque (at) 5100 rpm. The GEO with a turbo (according to GEO Corp.) has 107 ftlbs. of torque at around 3900rpm. By allowing the significantly reduced lower cruise rpm, and corresponding noise/prop/fuel reduction, this is what I am told by those that have this setup obtain. We shall see!
If I set my cruise rpm to around 3500 (well into the power band and still possibly exceeding a Rotax 912S's
maximum torque), the propeller swings (at) 1555 rpm( I have a 2.25 to 1 reduction). By being able to adjust the prop pitch (by way of the Ivo Electric In-Flight adjustable propeller), this should make a very quiet, fuel efficient, fairly strong powerplant. This is also how a GEO and turbo combination is able to claim a fuel burn of about 1.75 gal/hr.
As I have previously said..."we'll see". These are the things I've heard, and read, and am told by those that have a GEO with turbo. I make no claims until I experience these results myself.
BFN, Mike Welch
Disclaimer:
This is email is NOT meant to be disparaging to any Rotax owners! If you have a Rotax, and are happy with it, then I am happy for you. Rotax is a fine engine. They're the best! You are NOT a fool, a moron, an idiot or any other insulting name if your opinion and experiences differ from mine. You do not need to agree with me, nor do you have to buy a GEO engine and try it out. You are not required to have a contest of a GEO against a Rotax, carried out in ideal weather conditions. And finally, the opinions stated here are my own, your mileage may vary, and that's okay by me.
_________________________________________________________________
Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: Re: project engine |
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Deleted, we need to get back to building and finding ways of improving our Kolbs.
I dont know if I would want to be the test case for this new engine, but I sure do like the aileron modification Mike is doing.
Mike
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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Last edited by JetPilot on Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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rowedenny(at)windstream.n
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: project engine |
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Mike,
The only time I have a problem with what some post is when a few
individuals like yourself put list politics, and saving face (((((above)))))
giving truthful and accurate information to the many people that read this
list.
| Quote: |
Mike Bigelow
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you
could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
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Mike,
I see the dislexia in this remark.
The comments Jetpilot refers to were well below your accurate information,
not above.
Heck it was even below your signature.
Denny Rowe
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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: project engine |
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| Quote: | Mike,
While you are claiming to be this nice guy that would never say anything bad, you are are taking any>opportunity you can to take a cheap shot at me here on the list. No matter what you say, your actions speak>louder than your words.
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Yes, Mike, I do apologize. I guess it was a bit of a cheap shot. Sorry. It's just that when you told me I didn't have more than a 5th grade education last year on one of your other tirades, I must have still had a burr under my saddle, as they say. I held back and chose not to get into an argument with you, at that time, even though you insulted me. Pent up hostilities, as it were.
Although you denigrated my grammatical skills last year, I chose to bite my tongue, and let it pass that you don't know the proper use of the adjective "too". As in "too" hot, or "too" fast, or "too" quick to judge. You endlessly misuse "their", not knowing the correct spelling, and proper placement. Sometimes you spell it there, or thier (note incorrect spelling). I know it's tough, getting all those grammatical expressions down pat!! But, I'm not going to point out your spelling and grammatical weaknesses, and call you a fool. Why, that just would be right!!
I should apologize for my wife's 3rd grade class. They laughed when they heard you don't know how to use the word "to" correctly. Shame on them, those little rascals. They learned back in November the proper uses of the words "to, too, and two". They should have some respect!! That's "know-it-alls" for you!!
And speaking of respect. Who assigned YOU as the authority for this list's accuracy monitor. The "keeper of facts, man", as it where. I didn't get that memo when I joined. However, soon after I got here, I sure learned who I was supposed to give in to. (This is one of those times when the proper spelling IS "tee oh")
As a matter of fact, I AM a nice guy. I said I joined this list for the fellowship and advice of other fine gentlemen, and a couple of (good looking) ladies. (There's some mighty handsome men, don't think I didn't notice, wink wink wink wink wink. And what's with this continual wink crap? Do you know how annoying that is???!!!)
I complimented Rex on his nose modification to his Xtra, when there were those who weren't as complimentary. I have stated that Rick G. is about as smart a guy as there is, and he backs up what he says with regulations and documented facts. And Jack Hart, he just plain funny!! And Beauford, ..he's a riot!! John H., more experience than most of us put together. The list goes on and on. ALL fine gentlemen! How in the world can you find it in yourself to insult these guys?? Have you never heard of the word "diplomacy"? What, because you are half our age, you know more than us. If we misspeak, it is your job to inform others what dumbasses we are. You are the gatekeeper to what is right and all others are "fools and idiots" because they believe differently than you. Perish the thought!!!
Like when Rick G. may have confused silicon with silicone. I didn't say "Hey, Moron, it's silicon!! You fool!!!"
My approach was and I quote "Respectfully, Rick, I think you may be confusing silicon with silicone". And politely noted the difference. It came as no surprise to me that he politely replied he use to work as an engineer for Boeing.
You see, polite discourse, without the use of insults. It is entirely possible it was I that was confusing silicon vs. silicone, in his context. Calling him a fool would make me look like an authoritative, know it all, inconsiderate butthead, would it?? Gosh, maybe there's a lesson here. ??
| Quote: |
There is also a very big difference between opinion and FACT. I dont care much about your or other peoples>opinions, that is up to them. When people dismiss FACTS and give bad information to others, then you could>use any of the terms in your above post to describe them.
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NO, I couldn't. But, you certainly do!! I would NOT them call any of terms I saidin my lampooning disclaimer, like fool, moron, stupid, etc. Those are your terms. To politely disagree. Fine. To respectfully show them they are misguided, with documented proof. Ok. But to try to "set them straight" to my way of thinking in such a rude manner, well, that just isn't me. Maybe that's your approach. No, wait. That IS your approach!!!
| Quote: | People come to this list to get good information, and it is our responsibility to give them the best information>possible. The only time I have a problem with what some post is when a few individuals like yourself put list>politics, and saving face above giving truthful and accurate information to the many people that read this list.
Mike Bigelow
You'll have to forgive me, but I can't recall when politics or saving face entered into my, or anyone elses, replies. No, that is NOT the only time you have a problem. I can't remember anyone who said VGs don't work. I DO recall a few fellow pilots who said they didn't want or need them. I don't believe they were arguing "their" (note correct spelling, please) validity, they just don't see the personal necessity for them. As a matter of record, I do see their value. But, forgive me, it's not because of your soap box rant. I have come to that conclusion on my own.
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Lastly, I am a nice guy. If this forum thinks I am rude, or chastizes me, I will not stick around. I couldn't imagine hanging around knowing everyone thought of me as a self-righteous, ego-centric, know it all basturd.
Could you?? Hmm?? Besides, I'd miss Ellery's stories! But, then that's just me. What do I know?
Mike Welch
Ps.I will NOT argue, debate, discuss, or in other manner continue this discourse. It is closed, and of course, you may continue, as you usually do, endlessly. Because, as we have ALL learned, you have to have the last word.Feel free to reply to your heart's content.
I assure you I won't read your reply. You'll just have to write it because it makes YOU feel good. I won't know. I miss Jim Kmet, and George. They quit this forum because of you. I might. Naw, I wouldn't. There are TOO many nice people here. It would be TOO hard for me TO quit.
Pss. Thanks for your recent help.
pss. do not archive
Lastly, my apologies to the rest of the Kolb group. I won't let this happen again. I'm through arguing with him.
Sorry.
_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: project engine |
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| Quote: |
Mike,
While you are claiming to be this nice guy that would never say anything
bad, you are are taking any opportunity you can to take a cheap shot at me
here on the list. No matter what you say, your actions speak louder than
your words.
There is also a very big difference between opinion and FACT. I dont care
much about your or other peoples opinions, that is up to them. When
people dismiss FACTS and give bad information to others, then you could
use any of the terms in your above post to describe them. People come to
this list to get good information, and it is our responsibility to give
them the best information possible. The only time I have a problem with
what some post is when a few individuals like yourself put list politics,
and saving face above giving truthful and accurate information to the many
people that read this list.
Mike Bigelow
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Mike B:
This is none of my business and I probably should not respond. However, it
does affect everyone on the Kolb List that reads it.
Since you didn't post a reference, I had no idea what you were talking
about.
Second, it is clear this message is between you and Mike.
Please take this type correspondence bc.
I know, I know, I have a delete key. I was hoping we could get beyond the
delete key, post Kolb stuff, and cease personal judgements.
Thanks,
john h
mkIII - Working on my first cup of coffee. Grey, cold, windy at hauck's
holler, alabama.
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: project engine |
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John H.
You are correct, I deleted this and my previous message off the forum about 5 minutes after posting it. Upon reading it after posting, I decided that this was just turning into a pissing match that was going nowhere, so I have deleted both my messages in this thread. I would rather talk about building and improving Kolbs than dealing with stuff like this.
The edit feature does not work for the email part of the list, so just delete the couple posts and we can get on with the more important business of talking about Kolbs 
Mike
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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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