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Michel
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Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 966 Location: Norway
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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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Quote: | From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Here's an example of a good save! And we thought our Foxes are a rudder
workout!
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Yes, I have just seen it on the Norwegian television, tonight. Now, I don't want to to sound arrogant toward a professional pilot with thousands of hours but ...
To me, it looks like he is coming in crabbing, then righten up with the runway at the last second. The left rudder movement plus the side wind lifts the right wing up and the left wing is so close to the ground that an accident is barely avoided.
With my tiny Kitfox, I have train for that and come in in a side slip, keeping the windward wing low and a foot on the other pedal, ready to avoid weathercocking. It means, of course, to land on only one gear, the windward one. I have done it as a training and the most wind (from the nearby ATIS) I have experienced is 12 knots. Nothing in comparison to this aircraft but ... probably the most I dare to experience with my Kitfox 3.
Again, I don't want to be arrogant; just saying what I would have done if I was him. Please, fire at me; I hope to learn in the process.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
do not archive
<pre><b><font size color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
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KITFOXZ(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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Still, I'll bet this Airbus pilot could gain some skill level by landing your 3 in a 20 mph cross-wind! --Even though he was dealing with some component of 155 mph! Pat yourself on the back. With your Fox, you don't have the help of slats, spoilers, and lots of thrust to help you out! I wonder how lightly loaded he was?
John P. Marzluf "John Z"
Columbus, Ohio
Series V Outback (still out back in the garage)
Do Not Archiven
In a message dated 3/3/2008 1:45:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, michel(at)online.no writes:
Quote: | > From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Quote: | Here's an example of a good save! And we thought our Foxes are a rudder
workout!
|
Yes, I have just seen it on the Norwegian television, tonight. Now, I don't want to to sound arrogant toward a professional pilot with thousands of hours but ...
To me, it looks like he is coming in crabbing, then righten up with the runway at the last second. The left rudder movement plus the side wind lifts the right wing up and the left wing is so close to the ground that an accident is barely avoided.
With my tiny Kitfox, I have train for that and come in in a side slip, keeping the windward wing low and a foot on the other pedal, ready to avoid weathercocking. It means, of course, to land on only one gear, the windward one. I have done it as a training and the most wind (from the nearby ATIS) I have experienced is 12 knots. Nothing in comparison to this aircraft but ... probably the most I dare to experience with my Kitfox 3.
Again, I don't want to be arrogant; just saying what I would have done if I was him. Please, fire at me; I hope to learn in the process.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
do not archive
Quote: | http://www.matronics.com/Navigato-> |
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mscotter
Joined: 15 Jan 2006 Posts: 49 Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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If I'm not mistaken, airline procedures typically call for the 'crabbing' technique as some heavies can easily touch an engine or wingtip down when using the slipping technique and getting close to the ground.
[quote]-------------- Original message --------------
From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Still, I'll bet this Airbus pilot could gain some skill level by landing your 3 in a 20 mph cross-wind! --Even though he was dealing with some component of 155 mph! Pat yourself on the back. With your Fox, you don't have the help of slats, spoilers, and lots of thrust to help you out! I wonder how lightly loaded he was?
John P. Marzluf "John Z"
Columbus, Ohio
Series V Outback (still out back in the garage)
Do Not Archiven
In a message dated 3/3/2008 1:45:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, michel(at)online.no writes:
Quote: | > From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Quote: | Here's an example of a good save! And we thought our Foxes are a rudder
workout!
|
Yes, I have just seen it on the Norwegian television, tonight. Now, I don't want to to sound arrogant toward a professional pilot with thousands of hours but ...
To me, it looks like he is coming in crabbing, then righten up with the runway at the last second. The left rudder movement plus the side wind lifts the right wing up and the left wing is so close to the ground that an accident is barely avoided.
With my tiny Kitfox, I have train for that and come in in a side slip, keeping the windward wing low and a foot on the other pedal, ready to avoid weathercocking. It means, of course, to land on only one gear, the windward one. I have done it as a training and the m ost wi nd (from the nearby ATIS) I have experienced is 12 knots. Nothing in comparison to this aircraft but ... probably the most I dare to experience with my Kitfox 3.
Again, I don't want to be arrogant; just saying what I would have done if I was him. Please, fire at me; I hope to learn in the process.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
do not archive
Quote: | http://www.matronics.com/Navigato-> |
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It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
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l.morris(at)tx.rr.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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The crabbing techique is used on jet aircraft becuse of the sweep wing design---- Do Not Archive-- Leon Morris/Classic 4/60%/ Flower Mound,TX
---- mscotter(at)comcast.net wrote:
Quote: | If I'm not mistaken, airline procedures typically call for the 'crabbing' technique as some heavies can easily touch an engine or wingtip down when using the slipping technique and getting close to the ground.
-------------- Original message --------------
From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Still, I'll bet this Airbus pilot could gain some skill level by landing your 3 in a 20 mph cross-wind! --Even though he was dealing with some component of 155 mph! Pat yourself on the back. With your Fox, you don't have the help of slats, spoilers, and lots of thrust to help you out! I wonder how lightly loaded he was?
John P. Marzluf "John Z"
Columbus, Ohio
Series V Outback (still out back in the garage)
Do Not Archiven
In a message dated 3/3/2008 1:45:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, michel(at)online.no writes:
> From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
> Here's an example of a good save! And we thought our Foxes are a rudder
> workout!
Yes, I have just seen it on the Norwegian television, tonight. Now, I don't want to to sound arrogant toward a professional pilot with thousands of hours but ...
To me, it looks like he is coming in crabbing, then righten up with the runway at the last second. The left rudder movement plus the side wind lifts the right wing up and the left wing is so close to the ground that an accident is barely avoided.
With my tiny Kitfox, I have train for that and come in in a side slip, keeping the windward wing low and a foot on the other pedal, ready to avoid weathercocking. It means, of course, to land on only one gear, the windward one. I have done it as a training and the most wind (from the nearby ATIS) I have experienced is 12 knots. Nothing in comparison to this aircraft but ... probably the most I dare to experience with my Kitfox 3.
Again, I don't want to be arrogant; just saying what I would have done if I was him. Please, fire at me; I hope to learn in the process.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
do not archive
http://www.matronics.com/Navigato->
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
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Rex Hefferan
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Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 147 Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"
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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:32 pm Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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I'm sure Kurt S. could tell us about this if he's around. I'm reminded
of the crosswind test landings of airliners on another video.
www.metacafe.com/watch/39256/*crosswind*s/
Worth watching again and I love the music.
Rex
SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
Michel Verheughe wrote:
Quote: | >From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
>Here's an example of a good save! And we thought our Foxes are a rudder
>workout!
>
>
Yes, I have just seen it on the Norwegian television, tonight. Now, I don't want to to sound arrogant toward a professional pilot with thousands of hours but ...
To me, it looks like he is coming in crabbing, then righten up with the runway at the last second. The left rudder movement plus the side wind lifts the right wing up and the left wing is so close to the ground that an accident is barely avoided.
With my tiny Kitfox, I have train for that and come in in a side slip, keeping the windward wing low and a foot on the other pedal, ready to avoid weathercocking. It means, of course, to land on only one gear, the windward one. I have done it as a training and the most wind (from the nearby ATIS) I have experienced is 12 knots. Nothing in comparison to this aircraft but ... probably the most I dare to experience with my Kitfox 3.
Again, I don't want to be arrogant; just saying what I would have done if I was him. Please, fire at me; I hope to learn in the process.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
do not archive
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N740GP - M2/582
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KITFOXZ(at)aol.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:31 pm Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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Yes! Those are some beautiful, seemingly, unmanageable cross-wind landings! I can almost hear Kurt singing praises to the virtues of the great 777. In some of those clips, it almost seems like the main gear extends down ahead of the rest of the fuselage to meet mother earth and grab hold of terra firma. Like a giant eagle clawing for her perch. One clip looks like the nose pivots 20 degrees before planting the nose gear parallel to the center line. Awsome!
John Z. Columbus Ohio
do not archive
In a message dated 3/3/2008 4:35:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hefferans(at)gmail.com writes:
Quote: | www.metacafe.com/watch/39256/*crosswind*s/
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It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
[quote][b]
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LarryM
Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Posts: 63 Location: Genoa, IL
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Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Cross-Wind T & G |
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I always land every that I've flown in a slip. This covers general aviation, fighters and airline. I learned on a tailwheel and that's the only way Dad would allow landing. I have found no reason to use any other technique. The max cross wind was in the sim with a MD11 was 90 degrees at 50kts.
My question to the pilot of that Airbus is why did he even attempt to approach let alone land while there was a storm that produce 155mph wind?! Life is too short, not to mention careers. A professional pilot would have been miles away sipping on something!
larry
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Float Flyr
![](images/avatars/6347796944bf72a583fa4.jpg)
Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 2704 Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:44 am Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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I wonder if they can actually use all the tires again after a landing like that?? 155 mph I thought it was only 50... (at)150 he should have landed across the runway. ( just joking)
[img]cid:image001.jpg(at)01C87DE0.21344880[/img]
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 7:57 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Cross-Wind T & G
Yes! Those are some beautiful, seemingly, unmanageable cross-wind landings! I can almost hear Kurt singing praises to the virtues of the great 777. In some of those clips, it almost seems like the main gear extends down ahead of the rest of the fuselage to meet mother earth and grab hold of terra firma. Like a giant eagle clawing for her perch. One clip looks like the nose pivots 20 degrees before planting the nose gear parallel to the center line. Awsome!
John Z. Columbus Ohio
do not archive
In a message dated 3/3/2008 4:35:24 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hefferans(at)gmail.com writes:
It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
Quote: | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List | 0123456789
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Michel
![](images/avatars/24951973843c379233f66b.gif)
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 966 Location: Norway
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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Thanks Dick and everyone else; I know now that you don't land an airliner other than by crabbing. I'll remember that for the day we are told that the crew is sick and they need a pilot to land the bird!
Quote: | From: Noel Loveys [noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]
I wonder if they can actually use all the tires again after a landing like
that??
|
I was wondering ... from what I can see, I am not sure the wheels went on the ground at all. What's you opinion, guys?
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
do not archive
<pre><b><font size color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
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Tom Jones
![](images/avatars/12173518354c347421a8052.jpg)
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 752 Location: Ellensburg, WA
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Cross-Wind T & G |
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Quote: | Quote:
From: Noel Loveys [noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]
I wonder if they can actually use all the tires again after a landing like
that??
I was wondering ... from what I can see, I am not sure the wheels went on the ground at all. What's you opinion, guys? |
The tires may okay but they will probably never get all those seats clean again. Do not archive
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Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:28 am Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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I remember being a passenger a few years ago on I think it was a 757, landing at MIA in what must have been a hellacious x-wind. I was seated on the left side, looking out the window at the numbers on the runway just prior to touchdown. I don't think anyone else even noticed. I did thank the pilot as I de-planed. Those guys are good.
do not archive
Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net> wrote:
[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones"
Quote:
From: Noel Loveys [noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]
I wonder if they can actually use all the tires again after a landing like
that??
I was wondering ... from what I can see, I am not sure the wheels went on the ground at all. What's you opinion, guys?
The tires may okay but they will probably never get all [quote][b]
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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:39 pm Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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Then again, some x-wind approaches are better executed than others, aren't they?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueJeC2pxxbM
Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no> wrote:
[quote]Thanks Dick and everyone else; I know now that you don't land an airliner other than by crabbing. I'll remember that for the day we are told that the crew is sick and they need a pilot to land the bird!
Quote: | From: Noel Loveys [noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]
I wonder if they can actually use all the tires again after a landing like
that??
|
I was wondering ... from what I can see, I am not sure the wheels went on the ground at all. What's you opinion, guys?
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
do not Be a better friend, newshound, and [quote][b]
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Float Flyr
![](images/avatars/6347796944bf72a583fa4.jpg)
Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 2704 Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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In Dec 1975 I was in a DC-8 that landed at gander Intl. Airport. The runways were extremely icy and the reverse thrusters didn’t seem to work at all. I was in a right hand seat overlooking the wing..... Watching the runway disappear in front of me as the plane slid down the runway sideways at what seemed to be the speed of light. It was runway 31 and I could see the lights of the town getting closer at an alarming rate!
Somehow or the other the plane ended up going down the runway backwards.. At least we didn’t have to see what was happening! If you die that way you’ll never get into heaven...St. Peter would never believe it! Any way the pilots got the darn thing stopped without leaving the runway for a tour of the town. We taxied back to the terminal where we slid the last twenty feet or so before the engines were shut down.... Bad move... The DC – 8 didn’t have an APU and ground power wasn’t available for close to an hour while the crews outside were fighting ice to allow the power wagons to get close enough to the plane to hook up. There we sat in the dark quiet cold for close to an hour before they would get the power on for heat and light ... Then we got to wait another fifteen minutes while the walkway to the terminal ( no jetways... Still don’t have ‘em) was being de-iced. There must have been some minor power in the plane because the pilot used the intercom to make the announcements about the cold and dark and to apologize for shutting down the last engine before ground power was hooked up.
[img]cid:image003.jpg(at)01C87E39.7E15C250[/img]
Noel Loveys
Campbellton, NL, Canada
CDN AME intern, PP-Rec
C-FINB, Kitfox III-A
582 B box, Ivo IFA, Aerocet 1100 floats
[url=noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca[/url]
noel
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 1:53 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Cross-Wind T & G
I remember being a passenger a few years ago on I think it was a 757, landing at MIA in what must have been a hellacious x-wind. I was seated on the left side, looking out the window at the numbers on the runway just prior to touchdown. I don't think anyone else even noticed. I did thank the pilot as I de-planed. Those guys are good.
do not archive
Tom Jones <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net> wrote:
Quote: |
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones"
Quote:
From: Noel Loveys [noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]
I wonder if they can actually use all the tires again after a landing like
that??
I was wondering ... from what I can see, I am not sure the wheels went on the ground at all. What's you opinion, guys?
The tires may okay but they will probably never get all Quote: | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List | 0123456789 |
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Viewed: |
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Rex Hefferan
![](images/avatars/128378018043c3cde57625b.jpg)
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 147 Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"
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moosepileit
Joined: 10 Dec 2007 Posts: 26 Location: USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: Re: Cross-Wind T & G |
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I see the same thing- the crab transition to slip for touchdown did not work. Either poor technique or exceeded limits or a combo of both. Obviously I think the 155mph was the approach speed. I flew on a C-17 that day into Germany, winds were 50+ mph until a few hundred feet, then 30 MPH at touchdown, but mostly down the runway. I think we'll find out the winds were right at the limits for the aircraft and the decrab was performed too high.
I don't fly the Bus, so I don't know if it is allowed to touchdown with crab. If so, it might have been necessary to do so in that wind! By decrabbing there may have not been enough aileron and/or spoiler mix to keep the upwind wing LOW. When the right wing comes up, centerline was lost.
ALways a camera on you!
Moosepileit
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mikelaundy(at)yahoo.co.uk Guest
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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I have just retired from commercial flying in heavy jets and the technique we used for crosswinds was wing down and land on the into wind wheels.The maximum crosswind I have landed in, using that technique was about 40 kts and pretty interesting!
The airbus in the film clip on TV looked as if it was using crab technique, where the danger with a swept wing aircraft is a powerful rolling couple when applying a large rudder input, and it looked as if that is what happened. There is a further problem with the Airbus (which I flew in the mid 90s) in that its fly by wire control system automatically reduces control effectiveness when close to the ground to prevent pilot over controlling. The theory being that the flight control computer would maintain the ac attitude in turbulence without a control input by the pilot. Personally I did not like that aspect of the Airbus as it reduced the roll rate significantly when near the ground and on a few occasions in moderate turbulence I had full deflection side stick with the aircraft still rolling the other way for a brief period, not a nice feeling!
Another possibility is mutual interference by the pilots as the side stick controls in the Airbus work independently, it is possible for the pilots to put in opposite control inputs (i.e. the captain may want to override the copilot), in that event the computer takes the average of the 2 inputs!
I find in my Kitfox 3 there is little adverse roll when applying rudder so I use crab technique and kick the drift off just before touchdown, with a short burst of power to give me more slipstream over the rudder and elevators to increase their effectiveness.
Mike Laundy
Kitfox 3
England
mscotter(at)comcast.net wrote:[quote] If I'm not mistaken, airline procedures typically call for the 'crabbing' technique as some heavies can easily touch an engine or wingtip down when using the slipping technique and getting close to the ground.
[quote]-------------- Original message --------------
From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Still, I'll bet this Airbus pilot could gain some skill level by landing your 3 in a 20 mph cross-wind! --Even though he was dealing with some component of 155 mph! Pat yourself on the back. With your Fox, you don't have the help of slats, spoilers, and lots of thrust to help you out! I wonder how lightly loaded he was?
John P. Marzluf "John Z"
Columbus, Ohio
Series V Outback (still out back in the garage)
Do Not Archiven
In a message dated 3/3/2008 1:45:22 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, michel(at)online.no writes:
Quote: | > From: KITFOXZ(at)aol.com
Quote: | Here's an example of a good save! And we thought our Foxes are a rudder
workout!
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Yes, I have just seen it on the Norwegian television, tonight. Now, I don't want to to sound arrogant toward a professional pilot with thousands of hours but ...
To me, it looks like he is coming in crabbing, then righten up with the runway at the last second. The left rudder movement plus the side wind lifts the right wing up and the left wing is so close to the ground that an accident is barely avoided.
With my tiny Kitfox, I have train for that and come in in a side slip, keeping the windward wing low and a foot on the other pedal, ready to avoid weathercocking. It means, of course, to land on only one gear, the windward one. I have done it as a training and the m ost wi nd (from the nearby ATIS) I have experienced is 12 knots. Nothing in comparison to this aircraft but ... probably the most I dare to experience with my Kitfox 3.
Again, I don't want to be arrogant; just saying what I would have done if I was him. Please, fire at me; I hope to learn in the process.
Cheers,
Michel Verheughe
Norway
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200
do not archive
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It's Tax Time! [quote][b]
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Float Flyr
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Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 2704 Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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Funny thing is it seems as if it only happened yesterday... It ewas so faxt
I didn't even get the chance to ....
Noel
582 out
Waiting on parts to put 912 in!
--
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_________________ Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
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kj7sr(at)earthlink.net Guest
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:55 am Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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I agree with Michael, I flew large acft from 727s to 747s and found the low wing technique to be best. Before you would drag an engine you will scare yourself to the point you will correct the bank, (or should). With that technique you only have to worry about landing straight ahead you are not realigning to a runway, battling a crosswind and landing all at the same time.
Chuck
do not archive
Kitfox Model 1
kj7sr(at)earthlink.net (kj7sr(at)earthlink.net)
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
[quote][b]
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jose_m_toro(at)yahoo.com Guest
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: Cross-Wind T & G |
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IMHO, for strong cross wind, cross controls (low wing and opposite rudder) is the ONLY correct technique...and this is NOT what the pilot of the A320 did.
Jose
ex-Kitfox II/582 (still fly it)
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