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Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

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rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

At some point I'll want to add an autopilot to my 601xl.  I seem to  

remember seeing something about someone having a problem with the  

hingeless ailerons because the force needed to move them caused the  

clutch to slip.  Anybody have any experience with autopilots on a  

601?  My kit ailerons are hingeless and I'm really not wanting to  

modify them for hinges, but want to avoid problems down the road.



Ron

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

Actually I was told by an owner of an XL with *hinged* ailerons that his

Trio Avionics servo slipped. But since he had a two axis system I don't know

which servo was slipping. The installation of the altitude hold servo was a

little unusual on this plane. It was mounted on the firewall (pictures

attached).



BTW: this was one of the two "twin" XLs built at Quality Sport Planes in

California by Alan and Steve Smith. I can't recall if it was Alan or Steve

who mentioned the slippage. But their two planes are essentially identical.



http://www.qualitysportplanes.com/qsp-2006_072.htm



Others have said that in flight most of the stick force comes from the wind

over ailerons and that the type of hinge was only a small factor.



-- Craig



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bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 3:53 pm Post subject: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

One of the guys at my home field also has a Zodiac with the hingeless  

ailerons. He installed an auto-pilot in his and seems to have no  

problems with it. I believe it was a Tru-Trak system. A group of us  

flew from the Detroit area to the Zenith open hangar day a few of  

years ago and he had no issues with it on that trip.

On Mar 23, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Ronald Steele wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 At some point I'll want to add an autopilot to my 601xl.  I seem to  

 remember seeing something about someone having a problem with the  

 hingeless ailerons because the force needed to move them caused the  

 clutch to slip.  Anybody have any experience with autopilots on a  

 601?  My kit ailerons are hingeless and I'm really not wanting to  

 modify them for hinges, but want to avoid problems down the road.



 Ron


	


-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

Great, this is just the kind of info I was hoping would show up.   

Hingeless it is!

Ron

On Mar 23, 2008, at 7:49 PM, Bryan Martin wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <bryanmmartin(at)comcast.net>

 One of the guys at my home field also has a Zodiac with the  

 hingeless ailerons. He installed an auto-pilot in his and seems to  

 have no problems with it. I believe it was a Tru-Trak system. A  

 group of us flew from the Detroit area to the Zenith open hangar  

 day a few of years ago and he had no issues with it on that trip.

 On Mar 23, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Ronald Steele wrote:

> 

>

> At some point I'll want to add an autopilot to my 601xl.  I seem  

> to remember seeing something about someone having a problem with  

> the hingeless ailerons because the force needed to move them  

> caused the clutch to slip.  Anybody have any experience with  

> autopilots on a 601?  My kit ailerons are hingeless and I'm really  

> not wanting to modify them for hinges, but want to avoid problems  

> down the road.

>

> Ron

 -- 

 Bryan Martin

 N61BM, CH 601 XL,

 RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

 do not archive.

jlivsey(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:41 am Post subject: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

Hi Ron,



As per other replies I fitted a Trio Single axis autopilot (Wing 

Leveller) to my CH601HDS and it was the best thing I have done. I think 

the CH601-HDS has longer ailerons than the XL and they are "hingeless" 

and I'm not aware of any real servo slip. Even if it does slip a bit in 

real bumpy conditions occasionally it doesn't matter, it won't get 

itself out of position, it will just take a bit longer to get back 

straight and level. Remember you can always "assist" the servo with some 

gentle stick input !!!



You can check out my installation at 

http://camilla.homelinux.net/flying/modifications/auto%20pilot/ the real 

mistake I made was that it was a retrofit and I couldn't get to the back 

of the GPS easily so I had to cut an access panel in the fwd fuselage 

top cover. Should have done the access panel when I was building. My 

advice, make sure you can get at all the required wiring !!! (Or build 

the access panel during construction)

-- 

Regards, John Livsey

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:22 am Post subject: Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

Also be aware that trutrak has 3 different servos with progressively higher torque. They all fit in the same mount, so if you try the smallest one, and it slips, you can exchange it for a higher torque servo pretty easily. I don't know if trio has similar options. On my CH640, I had to use the highest torque servo.



Steve

CH640

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

Thanks to everyone who has replied.



I looked over the pictures.  Is there some sort of triangular fitting  

where the control rod connects to the cables?  It looks like there  

would be a lot of slop in the connection.  I'm sure it's just because  

I can't make out how the connection works



Ron



On Mar 25, 2008, at 4:33 AM, John Livsey wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Ron,



 As per other replies I fitted a Trio Single axis autopilot (Wing  

 Leveller) to my CH601HDS and it was the best thing I have done. I  

 think the CH601-HDS has longer ailerons than the XL and they are  

 "hingeless" and I'm not aware of any real servo slip. Even if it  

 does slip a bit in real bumpy conditions occasionally it doesn't  

 matter, it won't get itself out of position, it will just take a  

 bit longer to get back straight and level. Remember you can always  

 "assist" the servo with some gentle stick input !!!



 You can check out my installation at http://camilla.homelinux.net/ 

 flying/modifications/auto%20pilot/ the real mistake I made was that  

 it was a retrofit and I couldn't get to the back of the GPS easily  

 so I had to cut an access panel in the fwd fuselage top cover.  

 Should have done the access panel when I was building. My advice,  

 make sure you can get at all the required wiring !!! (Or build the  

 access panel during construction)

 -- 

 Regards, John Livsey

jlivsey(at)bigpond.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:18 am Post subject: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

Hi Ron,



I assume you are talking about the pics on my web pages. I just had a 

look at the pics and agree its perhaps a bit difficult to make out how 

it fits together. So I'll try and describe it. Please remember my A/C is 

a 601HDS, I don't have any drawings of the XL but I assume its similar.



1. The servo fits in a tray between a doubler and the rear spar 

immediately behind the pilots seat. This is seen in the second last picture.



2. The control rod from the servo heads towards the centre of the A/C 

and its bolted to the steel piece that is welded to the end of the 

torque tube for the aileron cable attachment. It is bolted between the 

aileron connection (above the aileron pick-up) and the actual torque 

tube proper. This is shown in the fourth and fifth last pictures. The 

steel piece I am talking about is painted black.



There is no connection onto the actual aileron cables, only the torque 

tube. There is absolutely no slop in the system.



-- 

Regards, John Livsey

planecrazydld(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:02 am Post subject: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

the only thing that would cause me to question the hingeless hinge is if the hinge protion were made from a heavier gage than designed. The forces climb and the fatigue capacity goes down.

Ronald Steele <rsteele(at)rjsit.com> wrote:  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: Ronald Steele 

Great, this is just the kind of info I was hoping would show up. 

Hingeless it is!

Ron

On Mar 23, 2008, at 7:49 PM, Bryan Martin wrote:

[quote] --> Zenith-List message posted by: Bryan Martin 

 One of the guys at my home field also has a Zodiac with the 

 hingeless ailerons. He installed an auto-pilot in his and seems to 

 have no problems with it. I believe it was a Tru-Trak system. A 

 group of us flew from the Detroit area to the Zenith open hangar  

 day a few of years ago and he had no issues with it on that trip.

 On Mar 23, 2008, at 3:31 PM, Ronald Steele wrote:

> --> Zenith-List message posted by: Ronald Steele 

>

> At some point I'll want to add an autopilot to my 601xl. I seem 

> to remember seeing something about someone having a problem with 

> the hingeless ailerons because the force needed to move them 

> caused the clutch to slip. Anybody have any experience with 

> autopilots on a 601? My kit ailerons are hingeless and I'm really 

> not wanting to modify them for hinges, but want to avoid problems 

> down the road.

>

> Ron

 -- 

 Bryan Martin

 N61BM, CH 601 XL,

 RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

 do not       Be a better friend, newshound, and   [quote][b]

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

Ah, got it.  Makes perfect sense.



Ron

do not archive



------

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

Since we are talking about autopilots. I just noticed that Dynon has announced the AP add-on for there line of EFIS.



At the low end of the line you can have a single servo unit for just $750

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

hansriet

Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 93

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

I've read about it in kitplanes, but can't find anything on thge dynonavionics website.

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:12 pm Post subject: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

Now that sounds interesting.  I've been wondering why this hasn't

happened in the past.  I'm sort of surprised that the Enigma didn't get

there first with it's everything in one approach.



I'm a software engineer by profession and I've been thinking it would be

fun to write an AP, but I'm completely clueless about hardware

interfaces. No time while building anyway.



Ron

601Xl wings

do not archive



------

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

Look in the support forums on the Dynon site. There is a thread with LOTS of info.

 	  hansriet wrote: 	
		  I've read about it in kitplanes, but can't find anything on thge dynonavionics website.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

hansriet

Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 93

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

[quote="Gig Giacona"]Look in the support forums on the Dynon site. There is a thread with LOTS of info.

Thanks, that's great info and exciting news. Makes perfect sense to utilize the Dynon solid state gyros for this.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:37 am Post subject: Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

Looks like the hardware is the hard, or at least, costly part. It seems that Dynon isn't even charging for the software.



 	  rsteele(at)rjsit.com wrote: 	
		  Now that sounds interesting.  I've been wondering why this hasn't

happened in the past.  I'm sort of surprised that the Enigma didn't get

there first with it's everything in one approach.



I'm a software engineer by profession and I've been thinking it would be

fun to write an AP, but I'm completely clueless about hardware

interfaces. No time while building anyway.



Ron

601Xl wings

do not archive



------

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

Actually Rainier (head of MGL) just announced they will be developing their

own servos on the Stratomaster users group on Yahoo:



<quote>

There have been on and off requests in the past for us to produce an

autopilot. I tended to answer this in the negative but it has been a low key

project. You can find a autopilot simulator in the Odyssey simulator. Active

a "goto", switch the HSI to GPS nav and engage the autopilot and it will fly

your track. This works with whatever you can throw at the HSI and of course

the altitude bug works as well as vertical source.



Due to "you know who" imminent release of their autopilot interface I have

decided to break cover to avoid the "why did you not tell us" 

scenarios that could emerge - I suppose my hand has been "forced".



Effectively we will introduce CAN bus controlled intelligent servos that you

can plug into an Odyssey, Voyager or Explorer. Enigma will need a small

external CAN interface.

The servos are similar in principle to the ones produced by Trutrak, i.e.

based on a geared stepper motor. This allows simplicity and a high degree of

reliability due to few parts. Servos like this are "clutch-less" and have a

very small amount of residual drag when not engaged - but so little that is

not noticeable in flight. They have a number of good advantages -

effectively they are a magnetic clutch that cannot wear and the trip torque

(torque required to override the servo) can easily be programmed in a wide

range from the panel.



As the CAN bus is multi-master and multi-drop, there is no limit to the

number and configuration of servos which means you can have a single axis, 2

axis, 3 axis (with rudder control) and 4 axis (the forth axis is throttle).

Split servos are also possible (for example one for each aileron) The servos

can be controlled from either panel in a multi panel system for redundancy.



Of course the existing ARINC429 and NMEA based autopilot interfaces will

continue to be supported.



I was planning to announce this later in the year but have now decided to

bring this forward and should be showing them of at Osh.



Rainier

<end quote>



-- Craig



--

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

All these lower cost EFIS add-on APs have got to have the folks that make the AP only units wetting themselves.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

engineerguy3737(at)yahoo.
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:18 pm Post subject: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

Although I am working on a different project, I get to

hear all of the discussions over the cube walls.



The software is just as difficult as the hardware. 



The base algorithm has been flying for years in UAVs.

As with all of our products, we don't release them

until they are have been rigorously tested and we are

assured that they work as they should. 



The autopilot information should be up on the website

in the next few days. 



To answer the basic questions: 

- Our servo is the same size/shape as TruTraks. 

- It weighs less than the TruTrak servo. 

- You can't use TruTrak servos with our autopilot.

- It can use the TruTrak mounting kit.

- You don't need to buy an AP-74 or AP-76 for our

autopilot to function.

- It uses only 4 wires. 

- Each servo costs only $750.



My wife and I plan on being at the Cloverdale fly-in

in May. I'll do my best to bring along a servo and our

Zenith mounting kit if I can. We are looking forward

to seeing many of you again! 



Dan Lykowski

601XL Builder( Tail finished / Wings underway )



Software Engineer

Dynon Avionics 



--- Gig Giacona <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net>

 

 Looks like the hardware is the hard, or at least,

 costly part. It seems that Dynon isn't even charging

 for the software.

 

 

 rsteele(at)rjsit.com wrote:

 > Now that sounds interesting.  I've been wondering

 why this hasn't

 > happened in the past.  I'm sort of surprised that

 the Enigma didn't get

 > there first with it's everything in one approach.

 > 

 > I'm a software engineer by profession and I've

 been thinking it would be

 > fun to write an AP, but I'm completely clueless

 about hardware

 > interfaces. No time while building anyway.

 > 

 > Ron

 > 601Xl wings

 > do not archive

 > 

 > ------

 

 

 --------

 W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

 601XL Under Construction

 See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 



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rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:14 pm Post subject: Non-hinged ailerons with autopilot

As well as those of us planning to install one.  To me this is really

exciting.  Maybe that means I'm basically a boring person!  What I love

most is just watching the world slide by down below.



Ron

------

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