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jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com
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 Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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What's the latest on using automotive oil filters on a 912UL? Is
there a K&N that is of high enough quality and proper fit?
Jack
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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Jack,
It's a serious No-No. You do NOT EVER want to use an automotive oil filter in the Rotax engine. The issue isn't filtration but pressure relief valve setting. Automotive filters have a much lower pressure relief valve which will allow dirty oil back into the engine before filter change time. Resulting damage will make a real Rotax oil filter seem dirt cheap.
Good building and great flying,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, except for testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). Airmaster Prop installed. Electrical complete, except for testing. Fuel system complete except for testing. Working in - 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived and is being installed.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Nov 17, 2007, at 8:13 PM, Jack Kuehn wrote:
| Quote: | --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Jack Kuehn" <jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com (jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com)>
What's the latest on using automotive oil filters on a 912UL? Is
there a K&N that is of high enough quality and proper fit?
Jack
|
[quote][b]
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Gilles.Thesee(at)ac-greno
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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Jack Kuehn a écrit :
| Quote: |
What's the latest on using automotive oil filters on a 912UL? Is
there a K&N that is of high enough quality and proper fit?
Jack,
|
Rotax advises to use only original Rotax filters.
There is no point using an automotive oil filter instead of the original
ones.
If saving a few dollars every 50 hours is so important, why not just
save on fuel and fly at 65% power instead of 75 % ?
Cruise speed won't be much affected.
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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rmcmill(at)zoominternet.n
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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jack k&n 1002 and also can be safety wired
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Savannah174(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Bob, there is no such product listed using the PN 1002, where to buy?......RJ
[quote] ---
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Ivor Phillips
Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 253
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:51 am Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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I believe he meant HP1002
--
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bjust(at)cox.net
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rmcmill(at)zoominternet.n
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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get them at advanced auto parts
[quote] ---
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hgmckay
Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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Bob:
Your comment is well taken, however, you and Roger Lee seem to be on opposite sides of the fence on the matter of using automotive oil filters for the Rotax 912 UL. Check the Archive for this subject on this forum or drop him a note directly. The date of his comments is 12/29/06 on the Rotax engine forum. In his comments he states that the Purolator 1, PL10241 has a bypass rating of 12 psi. I do not know what the by-pass relief valve setting in psi is on the Rotax filter. Can you shed more light on this for all of us?
Hugh McKay in NC
Allegro 2000
912 UL
N661WW
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rlborger
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:24 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 oil filters
Jack,
It's a serious No-No. You do NOT EVER want to use an automotive oil filter in the Rotax engine. The issue isn't filtration but pressure relief valve setting. Automotive filters have a much lower pressure relief valve which will allow dirty oil back into the engine before filter change time. Resulting damage will make a real Rotax oil filter seem dirt cheap.
Good building and great flying,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, except for testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). Airmaster Prop installed. Electrical complete, except for testing. Fuel system complete except for testing. Working in - 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived and is being installed.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Nov 17, 2007, at 8:13 PM, Jack Kuehn wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Jack Kuehn" <jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com (jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com)>
What's the latest on using automotive oil filters on a 912UL? Is
there a K&N that is of high enough quality and proper fit?
Jack
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
012345678901234
[quote][b]
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rlborger(at)mac.com
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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Hugh,
These are experimental aircraft. You can use whatever you want. I took the Rotax 9xx course through Lockwood Aviation. Champion makes the filters for Rotax. They look like the plain vanilla atuo filters. They are NOT the same as the automotive filters. I do not remember the exact pressure specs for the Rotax filter right now. But we were told that, if you choose to use the automotive filter, you run the distinct risk of running bypassed (unfiltered) oil back into your engine. If I can come up with the bypass pressure numbers for the Rotax filter I'll pass them along. Personally, I'll pay the extra $ for the Rotax filter.
I agree with Giles' post. If you really want to save money flying, throttle back. It'll only cost 5 kts but save you more money in lower fuel consumption and less wear on the engine.
As they say in the filter commercial: "You pays your money and you takes your chances."
Check six,
Bob Borger
On Nov 18, 2007, at 7:50 PM, Hugh wrote:
| Quote: |
Bob:
Your comment is well taken, however, you and Roger Lee seem to be on opposite sides of the fence on the matter of using automotive oil filters for the Rotax 912 UL. Check the Archive for this subject on this forum or drop him a note directly. The date of his comments is 12/29/06 on the Rotax engine forum. In his comments he states that the Purolator 1, PL10241 has a bypass rating of 12 psi. I do not know what the by-pass relief valve setting in psi is on the Rotax filter. Can you shed more light on this for all of us?
Hugh McKay in NC
Allegro 2000
912 UL
N661WW
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of rlborgerSent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:24 PMTo: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)Subject: Re: 912 oil filters
Jack,
It's a serious No-No. You do NOT EVER want to use an automotive oil filter in the Rotax engine. The issue isn't filtration but pressure relief valve setting. Automotive filters have a much lower pressure relief valve which will allow dirty oil back into the engine before filter change time. Resulting damage will make a real Rotax oil filter seem dirt cheap.
Good building and great flying,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, except for testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). Airmaster Prop installed. Electrical complete, except for testing. Fuel system complete except for testing. Working in - 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived and is being installed.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Nov 17, 2007, at 8:13 PM, Jack Kuehn wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Jack Kuehn" <jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com (jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com)>
What's the latest on using automotive oil filters on a 912UL? Is
there a K&N that is of high enough quality and proper fit?
Jack
012345678901234
5 |
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List |
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hgmckay
Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:01 pm Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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Bob:
I agree, it is not worth the risk. I would like to know what the pressure specs are for the Rotax filter. Any way of getting this?
Hugh
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of rlborger
Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2007 9:29 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 oil filters
Hugh,
These are experimental aircraft. You can use whatever you want. I took the Rotax 9xx course through Lockwood Aviation. Champion makes the filters for Rotax. They look like the plain vanilla atuo filters. They are NOT the same as the automotive filters. I do not remember the exact pressure specs for the Rotax filter right now. But we were told that, if you choose to use the automotive filter, you run the distinct risk of running bypassed (unfiltered) oil back into your engine. If I can come up with the bypass pressure numbers for the Rotax filter I'll pass them along. Personally, I'll pay the extra $ for the Rotax filter.
I agree with Giles' post. If you really want to save money flying, throttle back. It'll only cost 5 kts but save you more money in lower fuel consumption and less wear on the engine.
As they say in the filter commercial: "You pays your money and you takes your chances."
Check six,
Bob Borger
On Nov 18, 2007, at 7:50 PM, Hugh wrote:
Bob:
Your comment is well taken, however, you and Roger Lee seem to be on opposite sides of the fence on the matter of using automotive oil filters for the Rotax 912 UL. Check the Archive for this subject on this forum or drop him a note directly. The date of his comments is 12/29/06 on the Rotax engine forum. In his comments he states that the Purolator 1, PL10241 has a bypass rating of 12 psi. I do not know what the by-pass relief valve setting in psi is on the Rotax filter. Can you shed more light on this for all of us?
Hugh McKay in NC
Allegro 2000
912 UL
N661WW
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of rlborger
Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2007 9:24 PM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com (rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: Re: 912 oil filters
Jack,
It's a serious No-No. You do NOT EVER want to use an automotive oil filter in the Rotax engine. The issue isn't filtration but pressure relief valve setting. Automotive filters have a much lower pressure relief valve which will allow dirty oil back into the engine before filter change time. Resulting damage will make a real Rotax oil filter seem dirt cheap.
Good building and great flying,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, except for testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). Airmaster Prop installed. Electrical complete, except for testing. Fuel system complete except for testing. Working in - 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seat arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived and is being installed.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Nov 17, 2007, at 8:13 PM, Jack Kuehn wrote:
--> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Jack Kuehn" <jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com (jack.kuehn(at)gmail.com)>
What's the latest on using automotive oil filters on a 912UL? Is
there a K&N that is of high enough quality and proper fit?
Jack
0123456789 | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/contribution |
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rmcmill(at)zoominternet.n
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:17 am Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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I do not know by pass psi rating but can is rated for 500 psi burst . is a bigger filter and gives no oil pressure fluctuations like some other automotive filters i.e. bypass sticking or to high or low psi setting, price is the same as the rotax filter its just available locally. bob
[quote] ---
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Roger Lee
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: 912 oil filters |
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Hi All,
I just typed a nice long explanation on filters and this website timed me out and I lost it all. When I calm down I may retype it. In the mean time look at:
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com
Then go down the left side of the page to Lubricants and then "All about oil filters.
There is some misinformation on some of the post. Just hearsay and no sound research. I think we can put all that in perspective.
I'll be back. I think this time I'll type it under Word and attach it. This is the second time this site dumped my work.
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_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056 |
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rlborger(at)mac.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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Hugh,
I've gone through my notes from the Lockwood school and I did not make note of the bypass pressure of the Rotax oil filter. I have sent an e-mail off to Dean Vogel, the fellow who teaches the school. I'll let you know the results of any reply.
If you are interested in what is taught at the school, I have a photo album of the shcool on my build web site. I highly recommend the school to anyone who owns a Rotax 9xx engine.
Good building and great flying,
Bob Borger
Europa Kit #A221 N914XL, XS Mono, Intercooled 914, Airmaster C/S
http://www.europaowners.org/N914XL
(90%) tail kit done, wings closed, cockpit module installed, pitch system in, landing gear frame in, rudder system in, outrigger mod in, Fuselage Top on, lift/drag/flap pins in, wing incidence set, tie bar in, flap drive in, Mod 70 done. Baggage bay in. Flaps & Main Gear complete. Mod 72 complete. Instrument panel complete, except for some final testing. Rotax 914 installed (for the 3rd time). Airmaster Prop installed. Electrical complete, except for final testing. Fuel system complete except for testing. Working in - 32 Tail, 34 Door Latches & 35 Doors, 37 Interior & Finishing. Airmaster arrived 29 Sep 05. Seats arrived from Oregon Aero. E04 interior kit has arrived and is being installed.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208
Home: 940-497-2123
Cel: 817-992-1117
On Nov 18, 2007, at 10:01 PM, Hugh wrote:
| Quote: |
Bob:
I agree, it is not worth the risk. I would like to know what the pressure specs are for the Rotax filter. Any way of getting this?
Hugh
|
[quote][b]
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hgmckay
Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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Bob:
I must disagree with you on the price of the Rotax Filter and the Purolator 1 PL10241 Filter. By the time I get the Rotax filter from Lockwood Aviation with normal shipping the bill to my credit card is $31.33. This is outrageous! The Purolator 1 is only $5.88, and the store is right around the corner. I have not used the Purolator filter yet and am getting conflicting information about the two filters. I am trying to find out the real differences in the two filters to justify$31.33 vs. $5.88. Cane anyone else add to this discussion?
Hugh McKay in NC
Allegro 2000
Rotax 912 UL
N661WW
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of BOB MCMILLIN
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 7:16 AM
To: rotaxengines-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 oil filters
I do not know by pass psi rating but can is rated for 500 psi burst . is a bigger filter and gives no oil pressure fluctuations like some other automotive filters i.e. bypass sticking or to high or low psi setting, price is the same as the rotax filter its just available locally. bob
[quote]
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hgmckay
Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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Roger:
I just copied you on my last reply to Bob Borger on this subject. I would
appreciate your input in light of your research.
Hugh
--
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rampil
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: 912 oil filters |
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Hugh,
I too took the line maintenance class with Dean Vogel.
The information from the class was definitely in favor of the
"official" rotax filter. Dean was also quite clear on the great
sensitivity of the Rotax engine to clean, adequate oil.
You are free to make your own choice of course, but you do own
an aircraft, and know the consequences to your wallet!
Cheers,
Ira
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Roger Lee
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: 912 oil filters |
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Hi Guys,
Just a quick note before bedtime. The Rotax bypass pressure is .9-1.1 bar or 13-15.9 psi. The people who teach the class which I have attended are only repeating what they have been told. Research is better than hand me down info. I will post tomorrow on this. Please read the website I posted it will help understand oil filters better. The USA filters in my post are at 12-15 psi. This is not worth worrying about and I will explain tomorrow.
When I researched this subject I can't begin to tell you how people, in the business, interpreted bypass pressure.
P.S.
There is no risk and the other filters have been proven with more than 10 or more years experience in the field with some 912's with 3K+ hours and no rebuild.
Good Night and safe Flying.
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_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056 |
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Savannah174(at)msn.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Bob, I did take time to view all 145 pics in your Lockwood school album very interesting and an excellent job with the camera. One thing that sort of raised the hair on the back of my neck was the fact that a statement made as to the removal, disassembly, cleaning and reinstallation of that oil tank. Unless I missed it I checked ROAN's SB and SL as well as the line maintenance manual and no where could I find that task, can you shed some light on that?
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Savannah174(at)msn.com
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:29 am Post subject: 912 oil filters |
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<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> Hugh, WOW! that sounds like a years Oil Change filter supply for a year. A couple of the chapter members are using WIX 51056 on their Rotax 912 UL 80hp for a couple of years now with no problems. With the cost of fuel I would suspect prices will definitely skyrockett and many of us will go to the automotive filter for sure. Bob's website has info that sort of opened my eyes the statement that damage to engine/oil system will depleat in approx. 30 seconds
RJ
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