Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Landing Stalls

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Landing Stalls

The best part of this list is the way we share ideas. Also  could we all just call it a "stall" that is really what it is.

  

 My understanding is that new pilots have a problem with  how quickly these planes slow from flying speed to a stall. There is also  the comfort level of seeing a rather panoramic view of the ground coming up  at them real fast. This is a fault of a Kolb (so to speak) because it has  such great visibility. The result is that people have this inborn and in the  case of GA pilots "training " that has them fairing too high. Some new  flyer just E-mailed us about this very issue very accurately  describing it.

  

 I think that new pilots should set up their approach that  has the lowest decent rate/angle and gives the new pilot them most time to pull  up and adjust to a good landing flair. This can best be accomplished with  no flaps and some power. Flaps do two things, they increase the decent  rate/angle and they increase the rate of speed that these planes slow  down. You can set up gentle approach with flaps but you have to  greatly increase the power accomplish it. The main problem is loosing power  on approach would be a bad thing. The more power you have to depend on the  worse it could be. Flaps also produce more drag than they reduce stall speed.  Using flaps will slow the plane quicker than the reduced stall speed will  help.

  

 Also someone suggested using slips and throttle to get to  their desired landing point. Slips are less effective than flaps so why not  use flaps. adjusting power, primarily increasing power greatly  increases the odds of a power failure. I believe the rule is that if you  change the throttle on approach it should only be to reduced power. Flaps  can be moved in and out as necessary on approach to get to your desired landing  point. You just have to adjust your pitch according to your flap  usage.

  

 As always worth what you paid for it.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

  

 [quote]   ---

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Landing Stalls

At 12:07 PM 3/17/2008, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  My understanding is that new pilots have a problem with how quickly these planes slow from flying speed to a stall. There is also the comfort level of seeing a rather panoramic view of the ground coming up at them real fast... 	


 My background is GA (Taylorcraft, mostly) but that was 15 years ago... but 10 hours flying a borrowed Quicksilver got me more than ready for my first flight in my UltraStar.  Compared to a GA bird, the Quick's kinda like a Kolb, only more so (you just dive at the runway, 'cuz no matter what you do it's not going to float!).



 -Dana

 --

  "640K of computer memory ought to be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates, 1981    [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: Landing Stalls

Dana:

  

 Not to disagree, too much, but Kolbs will also  float, especially when you do not want them to.  If you are in a tight  situation and your Kolb has no brakes, the Kolbs will float  forever.

  

 Amazing what ground effect and Kolbs will do.   Get her right down there a foot or so off the sod and she will  float.

  

 My MKIII with 40 degrees of flaps and it will  float.  One of the secrets of getting a Kolb to float is to shoot your  approach a little hotter than normal.

  

 I judge others landing mistakes by my own many  times.  This flight to TNK and back I had a lot of time to think and to fly  and land.  We were taught to hover a rotary wing by looking out ahead of  the aircraft, not down at the ground.  We were taught to land them the same  way, looking out ahead of the aircraft.  Landing a Kolb is no different in  this respect.  Look out at the end of the runway when landing and the Kolb  will gentlely kiss moma earth.  Look down at the ground where she is going  to drop in, and that is probably what she will do.  Try it both ways  and see what happens.  Hard to judge distance looking down.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]    Compared to a GA bird, the Quick's kinda    like a Kolb, only more so (you just dive at the runway, 'cuz no matter what    you do it's not going to float!).



-Dana



    

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:49 am Post subject: Landing Stalls

I'm trying to remember in navy flight training, pre jets!, that we were told to look out of cockpit, 30-30...meaning 30 degrees down, and 30 from straight ahead on landing. My old eyeballs got no calibration markers left, but some residuals work fer me....never bent gear legs on FireFly. 



 regards,

Bob N.    FireFly 070 Old Kolb

http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/



 



 [quote][b]

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: Landing Stalls

That makes a ton of sence, a lot more than I expected. I'd have to digest it for a altering my opinion.

 But I also have to disagree about changing the flap setting on short final, particulary retracting them if you are short. I adjusting power to adjust desired landing point. You'd think we were in different sports.

 [quote]  From: NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls

Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:07:01 -0400

   .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}   The best part of this list is the way we share ideas. Also could we all just call it a "stall" that is really what it is.

 My understanding is that new pilots have a problem with how quickly these planes slow from flying speed to a stall. There is also the comfort level of seeing a rather panoramic view of the ground coming up at them real fast. This is a fault of a Kolb (so to speak) because it has such great visibility. The result is that people have this inborn and in the case of GA pilots "training " that has them fairing too high. Some new flyer just E-mailed us about this very issue very accurately describing it.

 I think that new pilots should set up their approach that has the lowest decent rate/angle and gives the new pilot them most time to pull up and adjust to a good landing flair. This can best be accomplished with no flaps and some power. Flaps do two things, they increase the decent rate/angle and they increase the rate of speed that these planes slow down. You can set up gentle approach with flaps but you have to greatly increase the power accomplish it. The main problem is loosing power on approach would be a bad thing. The more power you have to depend on the worse it could be. Flaps also produce more drag than they reduce stall speed. Using flaps will slow the plane quicker than the reduced stall speed will help.

 Also someone suggested using slips and throttle to get to their desired landing point. Slips are less effective than flaps so why not use flaps. adjusting power, primarily increasing power greatly increases the odds of a power failure. I believe the rule is that if you change the throttle on approach it should only be to reduced power. Flaps can be moved in and out as necessary on approach to get to your desired landing point. You just have to adjust your pitch according to your flap usage.

 As always worth what you paid for it.

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote] ---

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Landing Stalls

At 01:49 PM 3/17/2008, John Hauck wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Dana:

  

 Not to disagree, too much, but Kolbs will also float, especially when you do not want them to.  If you are in a tight situation and your Kolb has no brakes, the Kolbs will float forever 	


 Actually it was the Quicksilver I was referring to that didn't float-- at all.  My US isn't that bad, though nothing compared to my old T-Craft... T-Crafts were notorious floaters.



 With only 10 hours in it, I'm still working out my preferred technique in the US, what with no flaps and slips not really doing much of anything except changing the angle the wind hits my face 



 -Dana

 

 --

  If aliens are smart enough to travel through space, why do they keep abducting the dumbest people on earth?    [quote][b]

Wade Lawicki

Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 31
Location: Nashville Tn.

Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: Landing Stalls

Dana,

        Depends on what model Quick, I have a 2 place Sprint that with float for what feels like forever!  Of course that is comparing it to my FS.



                                                           Fly Safe,

                                                                        Wade

_________________
Fly Safe! Wade
Nashville Tn.
FS 2

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:49 am Post subject: Landing Stalls

David/All

  

 I need to proof read better. 

  

 Actually I expected someone to react more to the  suggestion of using flaps. When I told my check ride instructor about it he said  NO!!!! you never ever retract flaps on final. OK some common sense.  First, don't do this while nibbling at stall. Also, I like to stabilize my approach on short final, so short final....  not real short.

  

 There is a somewhat common myth that you will stall if you  retract your flaps on final. Think about it, when you raise your flaps you are  effectively reducing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that  causes a stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit  of pitch up trim change and the plane will increase speed rather  quickly. As the speed increases you will want to raise the nose a bit to  keep your speed under control but don't over control. Practice this a bit at  altitude. 

  

 Set up a high altitude approach. Lower your flaps and  lower the nose of your plane. Raise the flaps and raise the nose. Try to  keep your approach speed constant. Notice the change in the potential  landing point. It works well and no, the plane never comes close to  stalling.

  

 A few years ago I had a engine out on the way back form  Oshkosh. I had practiced the variable flap approach and had discussed a no flap  engine out landing with the Kolb guys in the Ultralight campground so I had  a plan fixed in my mind when it happened. I picked a landing spot and used  the flaps to put me exactly where I wanted to land. I never locked the  flaps in any notch but used it like someone would use a throttle to adjust my  glide slope. When I had my landing spot made I fully retracted my flaps and made  one of my best landings ever. Yes I could have landed slower with flaps but  I'm not that great a pilot and landing with no power and no flaps is just like  landing with one notch of flaps and some power. I normally land with some power  and one notch of flaps. In an emergency why make it more difficult?

  

 When you have and engine out you don't have a throttle to  adjust your glide slope. So why not practice what you might need someday.  Also changing throttle settings especially increasing the throttle on final  isn't a real good idea IF there is a better way.

  

 Yes it is the same sport.

  

 Again worth what you paid for it.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

 [quote]   ---

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Landing Stalls

 	  NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  David/All

  

 I need to proof read better. 

  

 Actually I expected someone to react more to the  suggestion of using flaps. When I told my check ride instructor about it he said  NO!!!! you never ever retract flaps on final. OK some common sense.  First, don't do this while nibbling at stall. Also, I like to stabilize my approach on short final, so short final....  not real short.

	




I actually had never used the technique of retracting the flaps on the landing approach until it was showed to me on my BFR last year. It was in the 172 and the situation was simulated engine out and I'd put too much flaps in to make the landing spot. He told me to take 10 degs out and see what happened...... 



Now I do it all the time in the titan in case I'm coming up short with too much flaps out and I'm practicing energy management (i.e. don't want to add power). It works perfectly and makes sense as well - if you have too much drag, but you have enough potential energy (altitude) to make the landing with a lower drag config... why not reconfigure to the lower drag config?



Another interesting exercise is to do a low fly by in the flare attitude and at a little above landing speeds with the flaps out. Then slowly start nursing the flaps up but continue to maintain altitude (a foot or two). A real eye opener which really tests your abilities with the power and elevator.....



There, that ought to start some flame mail 



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: Landing Stalls

Couple of things

 You said "when you raise your flaps you are effectively reducing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes a stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of pitch up trim change and the plane will increase speed rather quickly"

  

  

 On my plane if I l raise my flaps I'm lowering the angle of attack of the wing.

On my plane if I raise my flaps the plane will speed up.

On my plane if I raise my flaps lift is decreased and the plane it is likely to go down. (try it over the runway at 10 feet or so)

On my plane if I raise my flaps and I'm under Vs then the plane will stall immeadatly.

  

 I'm encouraged that your instructor agrees that it is not good pratice to tool with the flaps on final.

 [quote]  From: NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Landing Stalls

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:45:58 -0400



   .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}   David/All

  

 I need to proof read better. 

  

 Actually I expected someone to react more to the suggestion of using flaps. When I told my check ride instructor about it he said NO!!!! you never ever retract flaps on final. OK some common sense. First, don't do this while nibbling at stall. Also, I like to stabilize my approach on short final, so short final... not real short.

  

 There is a somewhat common myth that you will stall if you retract your flaps on final. Think about it, when you raise your flaps you are effectively reducing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes a stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of pitch up trim change and the plane will increase speed rather quickly. As the speed increases you will want to raise the nose a bit to keep your speed under control but don't over control. Practice this a bit at altitude. 

  

 Set up a high altitude approach. Lower your flaps and lower the nose of your plane. Raise the flaps and raise the nose. Try to keep your approach speed constant. Notice the change in the potential landing point. It works well and no, the plane never comes close to stalling.

  

 A few years ago I had a engine out on the way back form Oshkosh. I had practiced the variable flap approach and had discussed a no flap engine out landing with the Kolb guys in the Ultralight campground so I had a plan fixed in my mind when it happened. I picked a landing spot and used the flaps to put me exactly where I wanted to land. I never locked the flaps in any notch but used it like someone would use a throttle to adjust my glide slope. When I had my landing spot made I fully retracted my flaps and made one of my best landings ever. Yes I could have landed slower with flaps but I'm not that great a pilot and landing with no power and no flaps is just like landing with one notch of flaps and some power. I normally land with some power and one notch of flaps. In an emergency why make it more difficult?

  

 When you have and engine out you don't have a throttle to adjust your glide slope. So why not practice what you might need someday. Also changing throttle settings especially increasing the throttle on final isn't a real good idea IF there is a better way.

  

 Yes it is the same sport.

  

 Again worth what you paid for it.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

 [quote] ---

dhkey(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: Landing Stalls

I mean I'm increasing my angle of attack. Which means I am closer to stallling.

 [quote]  From: dhkey(at)msn.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Kolb-List: Landing Stalls

Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:02:27 -0500

   .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_body.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}  Couple of things

You said "when you raise your flaps you are effectively reducing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes a stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of pitch up trim change and the plane will increase speed rather quickly"

On my plane if I l raise my flaps I'm lowering the angle of attack of the wing.

On my plane if I raise my flaps the plane will speed up.

On my plane if I raise my flaps lift is decreased and the plane it is likely to go down. (try it over the runway at 10 feet or so)

On my plane if I raise my flaps and I'm under Vs then the plane will stall immeadatly.

I'm encouraged that your instructor agrees that it is not good pratice to tool with the flaps on final.

 [quote]  From: NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Landing Stalls

Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:45:58 -0400

  .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding-right:0px;padding-left:0px;padding-bottom:0px;padding-top:0px;} .ExternalClass EC_BODY.hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}   David/All

 I need to proof read better. 

 Actually I expected someone to react more to the suggestion of using flaps. When I told my check ride instructor about it he said NO!!!! you never ever retract flaps on final. OK some common sense. First, don't do this while nibbling at stall. Also, I like to stabilize my approach on short final, so short final... not real short.

 There is a somewhat common myth that you will stall if you retract your flaps on final. Think about it, when you raise your flaps you are effectively reducing the angle of attack of the wing. It is angle of attack that causes a stall. In a Kolb when you raise the flaps on final you will get a bit of pitch up trim change and the plane will increase speed rather quickly. As the speed increases you will want to raise the nose a bit to keep your speed under control but don't over control. Practice this a bit at altitude. 

 Set up a high altitude approach. Lower your flaps and lower the nose of your plane. Raise the flaps and raise the nose. Try to keep your approach speed constant. Notice the change in the potential landing point. It works well and no, the plane never comes close to stalling.

 A few years ago I had a engine out on the way back form Oshkosh. I had practiced the variable flap approach and had discussed a no flap engine out landing with the Kolb guys in the Ultralight campground so I had a plan fixed in my mind when it happened. I picked a landing spot and used the flaps to put me exactly where I wanted to land. I never locked the flaps in any notch but used it like someone would use a throttle to adjust my glide slope. When I had my landing spot made I fully retracted my flaps and made one of my best landings ever. Yes I could have landed slower with flaps but I'm not that great a pilot and landing with no power and no flaps is just like landing with one notch of flaps and some power. I normally land with some power and one notch of flaps. In an emergency why make it more difficult?

 When you have and engine out you don't have a throttle to adjust your glide slope. So why not practice what you might need someday. Also changing throttle settings especially increasing the throttle on final isn't a real good idea IF there is a better way.

 Yes it is the same sport.

 Again worth what you paid for it.

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW Powered MKIIIC

 [quote] ---

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:31 pm Post subject: Landing Stalls

Let me be perfectly clear I don't/didn't recommend  anyone be messing with their flaps on short final let alone at 10 ft and  certainly not near stall speed.

  

 I'm just trying to share information. I'm not sure  what someone else is doing. Subject closed from my end.

  

 PLEASE Do Not Archive

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC 

 [quote]   ---

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: Landing Stalls

Don't forget that deployed flaps DECREASE the airspeed at which you STALL(You can fly slower) so if you are at or near stall and retract your flaps(INCREASES stall speed)....you will likely stall instantly.



Conversely, once you have touched down, retracting flap will help prevent ballooning back into the air if a gust comes down the runway at you.



If you want to play with the flap settings on final you need to carry extra speed to allow a greater safety margin above stall....else you run out of height and speed at the same time.....and we know how much grief and pain THAT causes from watching the Road Runner and Coyote get it on!

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum