Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Rudder skins

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: Rudder skins

Since I m almost, almost almost DONE! ,  I  need to ask this question.

 Waaay back when I built my rudder ( at the rudder  school, under supervision of Zenith techs ) I was told that I could apply the  skins anyway I wanted.  What I m saying is that the techs had me install  the forward skin under the rear skin..

 After I returned home with my rudder and kit ,my  neighbors said that I had the skins on backwards.  I looked at the CD and  saw that "in the old days" the skins were applied the way I did it.   However my drawings show the forward skin overlaping the rear.   I  dont think the way I did it will be a problem at all, but it irratates me to  have other aircraft owners look at my rudder and ( I can see it in their faces )  shake their heads........

 So, have any of yous built your rudder in the manor  that I did ?  

 Steve

 QBK ( sure glad it went QBK )

  

 Steves Aircraft Painting Service...  NOT!

  

  

   [quote][b]

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject: Rudder skins

I don't recall building the rudder that way, but I did build the wings 

that way. Lapping the rear skin over the nose skin will result in a 

small reduction in drag because the flow won't separate when it passes 

over the seam. With the nose skin lapped over the rear skin, a small 

bubble of separated flow forms just behind the seam because the air flow 

has to jump off the rear edge of the nose skin and then flow back a bit 

before it can reattach to the rear skin. The difference in drag isn't 

much, so it doesn't make a lot of difference how you lap the seams. It 

seems counterintuitive, but a careful analysis of how the air must flow 

over that seam in each case makes it more clear. Chris Heintz used to 

cover this topic at his forums at Oshkosh. I think the folks at Zenith 

just got tired of explaining this fact and trying to dispel the myth 

that lapping the rear skin over the nose skin could somehow allow the 

airflow to peal the skin up. So they just changed the plans to show it 

the other way and let it go.



Just tell your friends that you built it the way you did to reduce drag 

and then look at them like you can't believe they didn't see that for 

themselves. 



steve wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Since I m almost, almost almost DONE! ,  I need to ask this question.

 Waaay back when I built my rudder ( at the rudder school, under 

 supervision of Zenith techs ) I was told that I could apply the skins 

 anyway I wanted.  What I m saying is that the techs had me install the 

 forward skin under the rear skin..

 After I returned home with my rudder and kit ,my neighbors said that I 

 had the skins on backwards.  I looked at the CD and saw that "in the old 

 days" the skins were applied the way I did it.  However my drawings show 

 the forward skin overlaping the rear.   I dont think the way I did it 

 will be a problem at all, but it irratates me to have other aircraft 

 owners look at my rudder and ( I can see it in their faces ) shake their 

 heads........

 So, have any of yous built your rudder in the manor that I did ? 

 Steve

 QBK ( sure glad it went QBK )

  

 Steves Aircraft Painting Service... NOT!

  

  

 

-- 
	


Bryan Martin

Zenith 601XL N61BM

Ram Subaru, Stratus redrive

Do Not Archive

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

jim.lanier(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:35 pm Post subject: Rudder skins

My plans show the leading edge skin under-lapping the rudder rear skin. Is this what you mean?

 

 see page 6 of:

 http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6-t-5-cnc-rudder.pdf

 

 

 Jim

 

 

 

 

 steve wrote: [quote]            Since I m almost, almost almost DONE! ,  I need to ask this question.

   Waaay back when I built my rudder ( at the rudder school, under supervision of Zenith techs ) I was told that I could apply the skins anyway I wanted.  What I m saying is that the techs had me install the forward skin under the rear skin..

   After I returned home with my rudder and kit ,my neighbors said that I had the skins on backwards.  I looked at the CD and saw that "in the old days" the skins were applied the way I did it.  However my drawings show the forward skin overlaping the rear.   I dont think the way I did it will be a problem at all, but it irratates me to have other aircraft owners look at my rudder and ( I can see it in their faces ) shake their heads........

   So, have any of yous built your rudder in the manor that I did ?  

   Steve

   QBK ( sure glad it went QBK )

    

   Steves Aircraft Painting Service... NOT!

    

    

    	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
 [b]

Aerolitellc(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: Rudder skins

I built my first one that way and called Zenith and Sebastian  explained how if it were under the skin would cause the air to be disturbed  sooner and actually help the air flow. Don't worry about it just tell the others  that you know something they don't and have them call Zenith.

  

  

 Jeff



Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

  [quote][b]

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:56 am Post subject: Rudder skins

You underlap it when laying out and drilling the holes. But on the last page

of the guide it says "OVERLAP: Cleco the nose skin 6T5-1 overlapping on the

outside of the rear skin 6T5-2."



-- Craig



From: owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-zenith-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of James E. Lanier

Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 2:24 AM

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Rudder skins



My plans show the leading edge skin under-lapping the rudder rear skin. Is

this what you mean?



see page 6 of:

http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6-t-5-cnc-rudder.pdf

Jim

jim.lanier(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:02 am Post subject: Rudder skins

I just saw that on page 12 it shows overlap.

 

 Jim

 

 James E. Lanier wrote: [quote]       My plans show the leading edge skin under-lapping the rudder rear skin. Is this what you mean?

   

 see page 6 of:

   http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6-t-5-cnc-rudder.pdf

   

   

 Jim

   

   

   

   

 steve wrote:    	  Quote: 	
		                      Since I m almost, almost almost DONE! ,  I need to ask this question.

     Waaay back when I built my rudder ( at the rudder school, under supervision of Zenith techs ) I was told that I could apply the skins anyway I wanted.  What I m saying is that the techs had me install the forward skin under the rear skin..

     After I returned home with my rudder and kit ,my neighbors said that I had the skins on backwards.  I looked at the CD and saw that "in the old days" the skins were applied the way I did it.  However my drawings show the forward skin overlaping the rear.   I dont think the way I did it will be a problem at all, but it irratates me to have other aircraft owners look at my rudder and ( I can see it in their faces ) shake their heads........

     So, have any of yous built your rudder in the manor that I did ?  

     Steve

     QBK ( sure glad it went QBK )

      

     Steves Aircraft Painting Service... NOT!

      

      

      	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
   



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
 [b]

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:38 am Post subject: Rudder skins

Keep in mind that either way is acceptable, if you were building a plane that is capable of speeds over 400mph you may wish to consider having the leading edge skin over the trailing edge. But for our planes it makes little difference and is more efficient to have the trailing skin over top of the leading skin. The important part of this construction, by lapping the leading edge skin over the rear skin you will need to measure 10 mm from the holes and trim the leading edge skin then file the skin to have a nice straight edge and remove the snip marks. Typically, this is long and involved if you do not use the olfa knife. By lapping the trailing skin over the leading skin you have a factory cut straight edge, no matter how you build it this edge will always look better. During my Rudder workshops both ways are explained and it is up to the builder to decide which is right for them, 98% will have the trailing edge lap over the front edge and forgo the trimming of the nose skin. Though they are informed about extra weight in an aircraft and every gram adds up. People may think It looks wrong unless they have studied fluid dynamics or listened to Chris Heintz, but they will have an impressive looking edge.  

     

Mark Townsend  

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.  

president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)  

www.can-zacaviation.com   

  

   

--

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:12 am Post subject: Rudder skins

That overlap is exactly how I did  mine.

 I feel MUCH better now that I m not alone on  this.  I can explain how the rudder is more efficient because of the way  its built.

  

 Steve

 [quote]   ---

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: Rudder skins

I actually drilled out rivets because of the questions from neighborhood 

pilots.  Guess what.?  Once the holes were drilled with the rear skin 

overlaping the front, the holes would in no way line up when I reversed the 

skins.

All holes were just a "bit" out of alignment due to the skins thickness. 

So, I put it back as originally built..

I seem to learn the hard way.  Someday I ll tell the whole story of my 

painting experiences.

Steves Aircraft Painting Service.....................NOT!

---

tlski(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: Rudder skins

Look at page 12 of 12 and it shows and tell you to  overlap the the rear skin.

 [quote]   ---

jim.lanier(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: Rudder skins

Yes, I had already posted that reference. It is initially under-lapped, then final construction is overlap.

 

 Jim

 

 tlski wrote: [quote]            Look at page 12 of 12 and it shows and tell you to overlap the the rear skin.

    	  Quote: 	
		       ----- Original Message ----- 

     From:     James E. Lanier (jim.lanier(at)charter.net) 

     To:     zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com) 

     Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 4:24 AM

     Subject: Re: Rudder skins

     

     

 My plans show the leading edge skin under-lapping the rudder rear skin. Is this what you mean?

     

 see page 6 of:

     http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6-t-5-cnc-rudder.pdf

     

     

 Jim

     

     

     

     

 steve wrote:      	  Quote: 	
		                       Since I m almost, almost almost DONE! ,  I need to ask this question.

       Waaay back when I built my rudder ( at the rudder school, under supervision of Zenith techs ) I was told that I could apply the skins anyway I wanted.  What I m saying is that the techs had me install the forward skin under the rear skin..

       After I returned home with my rudder and kit ,my neighbors said that I had the skins on backwards.  I looked at the CD and saw that "in the old days" the skins were applied the way I did it.  However my drawings show the forward skin overlaping the rear.   I dont think the way I did it will be a problem at all, but it irratates me to have other aircraft owners look at my rudder and ( I can see it in their faces ) shake their heads........

       So, have any of yous built your rudder in the manor that I did ?  

       Steve

       QBK ( sure glad it went QBK )

        

       Steves Aircraft Painting Service... NOT!

        

        

        	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
     



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	
   



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
 [b]

jim.lanier(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: Rudder skins

Yes, I had already posted that reference. It is initially under-lapped, then final construction is overlap.

 

 tlski wrote: [quote]            Look at page 12 of 12 and it shows and tell you to overlap the the rear skin.

    	  Quote: 	
		       ----- Original Message ----- 

     From:     James E. Lanier (jim.lanier(at)charter.net) 

     To:     zenith-list(at)matronics.com (zenith-list(at)matronics.com) 

     Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 4:24 AM

     Subject: Re: Rudder skins

     

     

 My plans show the leading edge skin under-lapping the rudder rear skin. Is this what you mean?

     

 see page 6 of:

     http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/xl/data/6-t-5-cnc-rudder.pdf

     

     

 Jim

     

     

     

     

 steve wrote:      	  Quote: 	
		                       Since I m almost, almost almost DONE! ,  I need to ask this question.

       Waaay back when I built my rudder ( at the rudder school, under supervision of Zenith techs ) I was told that I could apply the skins anyway I wanted.  What I m saying is that the techs had me install the forward skin under the rear skin..

       After I returned home with my rudder and kit ,my neighbors said that I had the skins on backwards.  I looked at the CD and saw that "in the old days" the skins were applied the way I did it.  However my drawings show the forward skin overlaping the rear.   I dont think the way I did it will be a problem at all, but it irratates me to have other aircraft owners look at my rudder and ( I can see it in their faces ) shake their heads........

       So, have any of yous built your rudder in the manor that I did ?  

       Steve

       QBK ( sure glad it went QBK )

        

       Steves Aircraft Painting Service... NOT!

        

        

        	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
     



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

	
   



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
 [b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum