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M-14 Future and Housai Future

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ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:04 am Post subject: M-14 Future and Housai Future

It looks to me like the future of the Housai is nearing.  There appears to be no motivation to rebuild these engines in the US and sending them back and forth is too costly.  Please disagree with me if you think otherwise.



The M-14 seems to be in decent supply and it looks like this engine will be the one we all will be flying with in the next 10 years as the Housai's meed their end of life.  



It also appears as though there are several sources for M-14s and due to many economic influences right now that these engines are going up in value.



Can we put together a reliable list of people:



1) importing engines

2) rebuilding engines

3) hot-rodding engines

4) providing "aftermarket" parts (eg fuel injection, etc)



Maybe once this list is compiled, it could be posted on the RPA web site as a reference for all of us.



Thanks,



Craig



PS - now all we need is a constant supply of gas w/o alcohol in it to keep flying OR someone develops a way to fly with mogas with alcohol in it.

dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: M-14 Future and Housai Future

Craig and all,

 The 285 hp HS6A engine is still available in China, but the price has risen sharply because of the falling value of our Pacific Peso and several other factors.  At this time a good 1st overhauled 285 hp engine, with good logs (FOB OMAK) is selling for close to the same price as a M14P.  This has discouraged many of us from importing HS6A engines unless they are pre sold, because faced with the option of spending just north of 20K for a fresh 1st overhauled 285, most guys will elect to spend the 30K (engine, shutters, exhaust, V530, etc) to upgrade  to a 360 hp M14P.  Their thinking, right or wrong is that they will get it back when they sell.

   

 I would somewhat disagree with you about the supply of M14P's, IMHO it's drying up fast and the prices are skyrocketing.  This again caused by the falling doller and big demand.  There seems to be a shortage of some parts and overhaul facilities are scrounging for the "best of what they have" to make up parts used in some overhauls.  I worry about the declining quality of these engines as the parts pool starts to run dry.  Maybe Mark or George has a more informed opinion on this point?  

   

 ABOUT LOGS----Be VERY careful

 Unlike the Russians the Chinese are totally preoccupied with controlling any and all information leaving China which may be even remotely considered to compromising to their military security.  This, they told me is the reason that they will not allow the real logs out of the country, and only allow photo copies to leave with the overhauled engines.  In this day and age of super spy sats and the like all this seems kinda stupid.  Anyway, this practice allows the dishonest vendor in China who has access to some office white-out and a copy machine to get rather "creative" in marketing his 3rd  or 4th overhauled engines, or engines of questionable parentage which have been "Dupont overhauled".  When buying a HS6A overhauled be extremely careful while iinspecting your photo copy log.  Use a mag glass if you suspect the serial number has been tampered with. 

   

 Original hard bound blue logs:

 It is very rare indeed that a complete CJ6 which has been in the PLAAF will find it's way to the US with the hard bound blue logs intact.  It is even more rare that a overhauled engine finds it's way here with the original logs.  Ernie has such a engine I think.  I recently bought a 2000 hour CJ which has never been in the PLAAF, never cadet flown and has a 12 hour TT since new engine and prop on it. (yes, since new!!)  I as delighted to find that this aircraft has all the blue hard bound books with it, heck it even has the signal flares in the side rack!   This engine and prop with all logs will be offered for sale when the aircraft arrives here in the US.

   

 With respect to rebuilding engines here in the US, I honestly think a total overhaul to American standards is still light years away because we have no supply line for the small parts and lack the special tools and manuals required to do the job.  Top overhauls are just around the corner, or in fact here now when you consider what Bill Blackwell is doing with the top ends in his Rat engines.  We will be offering stock 285 hp new and overhauled clys within the year.  

   

 Best to all, see you at OSH!

  

 



 

 On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 6:04 AM, Craig Winkelmann, CFI <capav8r(at)gmail.com (capav8r(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Yak-List message posted by: "Craig Winkelmann, CFI" <capav8r(at)gmail.com (capav8r(at)gmail.com)>

 

It looks to me like the future of the Housai is nearing.  There appears to be no motivation to rebuild these engines in the US and sending them back and forth is too costly.  Please disagree with me if you think otherwise.

 

The M-14 seems to be in decent supply and it looks like this engine will be the one we all will be flying with in the next 10 years as the Housai's meed their end of life.



It also appears as though there are several sources for M-14s and due to many economic influences right now that these engines are going up in value.

 

Can we put together a reliable list of people:



1) importing engines

2) rebuilding engines

3) hot-rodding engines

4) providing "aftermarket" parts (eg fuel injection, etc)



Maybe once this list is compiled, it could be posted on the RPA web site as a reference for all of us.

 

Thanks,



Craig



PS - now all we need is a constant supply of gas w/o alcohol in it to keep flying OR someone develops a way to fly with mogas with alcohol in it.





Read this topic online here:

  [quote][b]

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: M-14 Future and Housai Future

I'm not a chemist, or even close to it.  



HEY BRIAN!   



How might one REMOVE alchohol from gas?  

Mark Bitterlich

 



--

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: M-14 Future and Housai Future

On Mar 21, 2008, at 10:24 AM, Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



 I'm not a chemist, or even close to it.



 HEY BRIAN!



 How might one REMOVE alchohol from gas?


	


I am not a chemist either so I have no idea. I think it much more  

sensible to make the fuel system alcohol tolerant and then figure out  

how to remove the water from the fuel instead. That I suspect is  

easier to do and would allow the use of mogas.



You know, it might be worthwhile to test a CJ and/or a Yak to see how  

the existing fuel system tolerates fuel with alcohol in it.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

Mozam

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:49 am Post subject: Re: M-14 Future and Housai Future

 	  mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m wrote: 	
		  

How might one REMOVE alchohol from gas?  

Mark Bitterlich

 



-- 	




Ethanol and water readily join together when both are present in gasoline.  This clearly visible water/ethanol mixture lays on the bottom of the fuel tank (or testing jar).  This is how you easily test mogas for the presense of any alcohol.



Theoretically, you could put 85 gal of mogas (with 15% ethanol) into a 100 gallon plastic tank mounted in the back of a pick up truck, add 15 gallons of clean water to it, drive around a while to mix it up, then drain the water and ethanol out of the bottom of the tank.  The remaining mogas is ethanol free.



I have heard rumors of someone already doing this in a part of the country where ethanol free mogas is unavailable.



I am lucky and have pure mogas available where I live.  I have used it, mixed with some 100LL, in my Yak for years.  I expect the time will come when I'm running 100% mogas with a lead additive (available at Walmart) in it.



Cheers,

Steve Dalton

cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 3:00 am Post subject: M-14 Future and Housai Future

 	  Quote: 	
		  



 From: "Craig Winkelmann, CFI" <capav8r(at)gmail.com>

 Can we put together a reliable list of people:



 1) importing engines

 2) rebuilding engines

 3) hot-rodding engines

 4) providing "aftermarket" parts (eg fuel injection, etc)



 Maybe once this list is compiled, it could be posted on the RPA web site as a reference

 for all of us.




	


We have been there and done that in the form of a paper directory that sold ads and listings. This was distributed to the members with membership listings by address and AC type as well. I did this for a few years until leadership changes dropped paper in form of a website. However, the same concept of selling inexpensive listings to those vendors was not ported over. I believe that the RPA has lost some visibility to those vendors as a result. Today's vendor could be tomorrow's sponsor...



Craig Payne

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: M-14 Future and Housai Future

On Mar 22, 2008, at 1:49 AM, Mozam wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Ethanol and water readily join together when both are present in  

 gasoline.  This clearly visible water/ethanol mixture lays on the  

 bottom of the fuel tank (or testing jar).  This how you easily test  

 mogas for the presense of any alcohol.


	


The first part of what you say is correct. The second part is not.  

When there is no alcohol in gasoline the gasoline and water do not  

mix. When there is alcohol present the alcohol serves as a carrier to  

bond the water to the gasoline, making the water appear to dissolve in  

the gasoline. No water appears as a separate layer. How much water you  

can get into solution is a function of how much alcohol is present.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Theoretically, you could put 85 gal of mogas (with 15% ethanol) into  

 a 100 gallon plastic tank mounted in the back of a pick up truck,  

 add 15 gallons of clean water to it, drive around a while to mix it  

 up, then drain the water and ethanol out of the bottom of the tank.   

 The remaining mogas is ethanol free.


	


NO NO NO NO NO!!!!! THIS IS NOT TRUE! The alcohol will bond the water  

to the gasoline and now your gasoline will have water in it. So the  

alcohol serves to pull the water into the gasoline rather than the  

water pulling the alcohol out of the gasoline.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I have heard rumors of someone already doing this in a part of the  

 country where ethanol free mogas is unavailable.


	


If they are they are asking for a problem as it is possible to force  

the water out of solution by lowering the temperature (as in when you  

climb). Imagine that your gasoline is carrying water, the temp in the  

tank drops as you climb, the water precipitates out of solution, and  

goes to the low point in the tank (water is more dense than gasoline)  

where it now freezes ... in the fuel line.



As a matter of fact your engine is NOT going to start again before you  

reach the ground.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I am lucky and have pure mogas available where I live.  I have used  

 it, mixed with some 100LL, in my Yak for years.  I expect the time  

 will come when I'm running 100% mogas with a lead additive  

 (available at Walmart) in it.


	


Well, you can't get a real lead additive. Most "lead additives" are  

alcohol or other aromatics to increase octane added to other things  

that purport to provide the necessary lubrication. They are of dubious  

value.



I think it is possible to fly with alcohol in your fuel if the fuel  

system components are designed for it but keeping the fuel "dry" will  

be the supreme challenge.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Cheers,

 Steve Dalton


	


--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

Mozam

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:02 am Post subject: Re: M-14 Future and Housai Future

Brian,



Check this out:



http://www.eaa.org/autofuel/autogas/test_kit.asp



That is the test kit sold by the EAA to check auto fuel for alcohol.  It works just as I described earlier.  I purchased a similar tester from Peterson when I purchased their auto gas STC for my Cherokee many years ago.  Used it often.



You put a measured amount of water in the tester (a glass tube), note the water level, then add the auto gas, shake, and let it settle.  The alcohol and water bond together, SEPARATE from the gasoline and sink to the bottom of the tube.  Thus it now appears that the water level in the bottom of the tube has increased.  If there is no apparent increase in the water level from your original measurement then the fuel is alcohol free.



I will grant you that my (very unscientific) assumption is that 15 gallons of water will remove 15 gallons of alcohol from 100 gallons of auto gas.  But, it could be a different ratio, higher or lower.  I also wonder what happens to the octane rating of gasoline made with ethanol (which itself has an octane rating of about 113) if you remove the ethanol by whatever means?



And lead additive was a poor term.  It is actually, as you mentioned a lead substitute.   I have never used it and don't have a clue as to its effectiveness.



Cheers,

Steve Dalton

Last edited by Mozam on Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total

Mozam

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: Re: M-14 Future and Housai Future

For anyone interested, here are just a few expert sources to research concerning the hazards of water separating the alcohol from gasoline made with ethanol.



http://hazmat.dot.gov/pubs/reports/salerts/safe4-06.pdf



http://www.dem.ri.gov/programs/benviron/waste/pdf/usteth.pdf



http://genomicsgtl.energy.gov/biofuels/transportation.shtml



http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/ethanolwinter.asp



-Steve

brian-1927(at)lloyd.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: M-14 Future and Housai Future

On Mar 22, 2008, at 12:03 PM, Mozam wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Brian,



 Check this out:



 http://www.eaa.org/autofuel/autogas/test_kit.asp



 That is the test kit sold by the EAA to check auto fuel for  

 alcohol.  It works just as I described earlier.  I purchased a  

 similar tester from Peterson when I purchased their auto gas STC for  

 my Cherokee many years ago.  Used it often.


	


I understand and I have made my own out of a martini olive jar. Easy  

to make.



 	  Quote: 	
		   You put a measured amount of water in the tester (a glass tube),  

 note the water level, then add the auto gas, shake, and let it  

 settle.  The alcohol and water bond together, SEPARATE from the  

 gasoline and sink to the bottom of the tube.


	


Actually it works the other way. The water mixes with the alcohol and  

enters the fuel.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Thus it now appears that the water level in the tube has increased.


	


Actually, it appears that the water level has *DECREASED* because some  

of the water has bonded with the alcohol and is now dissolved in the  

gasoline.



 	  Quote: 	
		   If there is no apparent increase in the water level from your  

 original measurement then the fuel is alcohol free.


	


If there is no apparent *DECREASE* in the water level then there is no  

alcohol in the fuel.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I will grant you that my (very unscientific) assumption is that 15  

 gallons of water will remove 15 gallons of alcohol from 100 gallons  

 of auto gas.  But, it could be a different ratio, higher or lower.


	


The water does not pull the alcohol out of the fuel. The alcohol  

allows the water to dissolve in the fuel, making the water  

"disappear". What I said in my previous posting is 100% correct.



Have you ever seen the products that allow you to get water out of  

your fuel tank in your car? They are just alcohol. That allows the  

water to mix with the gasoline and then be carried through the engine  

leaving the fuel in the tank "dry".



 	  Quote: 	
		   I also wonder what happens to the octane rating of gasoline made  

 with ethanol if you remove the ethanol (by whatever means)?


	


The octane rating of the gasoline then decreases.



--

Brian Lloyd                         3191 Western Drive

brian HYPHEN 1927 AT lloyd DOT com    Cameron Park, CA 95682

+1.916.367.2131 (voice)             +1.270.912.0788 (fax)



I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . .

— Antoine de Saint-Exupéry



PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C

PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C

Mozam

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: M-14 Future and Housai Future

I should have known better than to argue this with you Brian.   



I tried to dig up my old tester's instructions, but after 20 years they're gone.  There are a couple brain cells left in my head that are starting to think you're right, the apparent level may DECREASE with alcohol present.



I have some 97% alcohol in the hanger I use in my air system.  Tomorrow, I'll take my "martini olive jar" with me and do an experiment to see whether the apparent water level rises, or lowers.



However, it does appear that with enough water present, the alcohol is removed.



From the US DEPT of Energy and other .GOV web sites: 



"Ethanol and gasoline-ethanol blends cannot be transported by existing pipelines that carry gasoline. Water present in petroleum pipelines can pull ethanol out and cause ethanol-gasoline blends to separate into two phases."



"Solubility in Water: Fuel ethanol will mix with water, but at high enough concentrations of water, the ethanol will separate from the gasoline."



"Investigate tank and water problems and correct - Underground storage tanks frequently have small amounts of water at the bottom of the tanks, referred to as â€œwater bottomsâ€. Ethanol-blended gasoline should not be stored in tanks which contain water. Excessive water levels can cause the ethanol in an ethanol - gasoline blend to â€œphase separateâ€, resulting in a layer of water and ethanol on the bottom of the tank. Therefore, it is imperative that water be eliminated from the system."



Hey, but what if you put some Marvel Mystery Oil in it??



-Steve

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: Re: M-14 Future and Housai Future

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hey, but what if you put some Marvel Mystery Oil in it?? 

	




Then life will be good, peace will spread across the earth and avgas wil go back to 75cents a gallon.



Nothing is better than MMO

do not archive

_________________
Milt

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: M-14 Future and Housai Future

Steve... Why the heck didn't I think of that?  It makes perfect sense. 



Mark

 



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: M-14 Future and Housai Future

I thought you said you weren't a freaking chemist?  



Mark



P.s.  What he said made sense to me, now I'm back to square one. 

 



--

l39parts(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:40 pm Post subject: M-14 Future and Housai Future

You should re-check the label on your Walmart lead additive.  It is highly unlikely that it contains lead.  It would be a violation of numerous EPA regs.  It more likely says lead substitute and you might as well piss in the tank of your CF for all the good that will do.

  

 



[quote] Subject: RE: Re: M-14 Future and Housai Future

 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 15:19:35 -0400

 From: mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>

 

 Steve... Why the heck didn't I think of that? It makes perfect sense. 

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

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