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Ethanol removal?
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bigboyzt0yz

Joined: 29 Jan 2008
Posts: 29
Location: Centeral Maryland

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

Ethanol can it be removed from fuel by adding water to this 15 gal tank (see Photo) If so what is the ratio of water to fuel? I plan on adding water and shaking it up. Then letting it sit and drain off the water and Ethanol off the bottom. Based on the fact that there is 10% Ethanol in the fuel how far below 93 does it lower the rating? Is there any thing that I am missing by doing this. I have 1995 model IV  fiberglass wing tanks and do not want a engine out from the resin break down. 

 The waste could be used for cleaning parts and such.

fuel tank on stand (Small).jpg

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New Tank on stand with valve at bottom.

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_________________
Lee Fritz in Owings Mills Md. 2002 KitFox-IV Classic/912UL/Warp drive taper tip/100% Complete ( Extras Strut fairings08, Grove gear09,) 300 hrs since Aug 07 "Have your feet on the Pedals and keep reaching for the sky".

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Ethanol removal?

I have run through my fiberglass tanks thousands of gallons of gas. I cannot guarantee you that it has ethanol but it has been law here in Canada that gas must contain ethanol so I assume it there.  I am against ethanol in gas but I use it as I have no choice.   So far I have had ZERO issues with it.  



IF i have to separate gas and ethanol  to fly I will adapt however needed. 



Like i said I do not support ethanol but I will adapt to it. We are only sheep in the pasture here.  Government rams it down our throats. 



I would like to see some conclusive evidence from hands on experience on why it should not be used rather than just "talk about it " and why it so bad. So far I have had nothing but good luck I guess ?

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

That's a good question...Wish I had the answer for sure.  The RON for

ethanol is reported as being 116.  I think gas without ethanol is 87.  If

you can find it toluene has a rating of 114 so for special purposes it can

boost the RON again.  If you are flying a 582 that should be Ok. A 914 will

require an octane booster... preferably not lead.



There are guys I've come across, one in New York who have been doing this

for their boat engines for years.  The main thing to look out for is pinging

aka detonation.



How much water to use?  Test to be sure.  For 15 gallons of gas there is

only 1.5 gallons of ethanol to remove.  If ethanol will in excess of 80% its

volume in water I would start with a trial of one quart of water.  Then test

the gas with a jar or test tube.  If it proves to be cleaned great if it

still seems to show ethanol in the fuel add another cup of water.



When mixing use an air operated agitator and be sure to let it stand for a

minimum of twenty minutes to allow the smallest "bubbles" of water to settle

to the bottom of the tank.



Also, you can siphon the gas off the top or on that fancy barrel just drain

the water off first.



Best of luck



Noel



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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:36 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

Lee,

I just want to raise a safety issue here.  In addition to lowering the

octane rating, you are adding water to the gas.  You need to add a step to

dry the gas after your process.  Mole sieves or such.   Otherwise when you

fly into colder weather, you risk separation of the water and gas line

freeze or ingestion of water into the engine.  - either could make things

real quiet up there.  Even if it works real well, there are going to be some

mistakes made, which can cause problems.



You could buy some alcohol (methanol or ethanol or isopropanol) to add to

the gas to keep the water in solution.  



Randy



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_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

Water won't mix, or form solutions with gasoline...  Sorry the same is not

true with ethanol.  To remove water from gas just let it sit... all the

water will settle to the bottom of the container.  



Water dissolved in ethanol which is mixed with gas is one of the problems we

are trying to get around.



Noel 



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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

Noel,

Get your self a chemistry book.  Water dissolves in gasoline up to a certain

percentage.   Beyond that it separates into two phases.  The small amount of

water that is dissolved in the gasoline will come out of solution if the

gasoline is cooled.  If you are in the air while you are cooling your home

made fuel, you may get an unpleasant surprise.



Similarly, gas dissolves in water.   - But to a lesser degree.  This is why

a small amount of gasoline can contaminate a very large amount of water.



Gasoline changes all the time.  Some has more benzene than other gas.  Some

has more toluene or xylenes than others.  The amount of water that is

soluble in the gas changes with the amount of these and other components of

gasoline.



Look for some ternary phase diagrams of water, ethanol and octane.  You will

figure it out.  



Randy



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_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

Thanks I have lots of Chemistry books.  Yes there is a minimal dissolving of water in gasoline (PPB).  For all practical purposes, none. Certainly not enough to separate from the gasoline by temperature changes or be the principal cause of carb icing.  If that were true ethanol would be a required ingredient of 100LL.  Funny it’s not.  Funny the accepted method of removing water form 100LL is to drain water drops from the sumps until no droplets can be found or filter the gas through a chamois or felt.  

   

The same is not true for gasoline that has been contaminated with ethanol.  Once contaminated with ethanol the gas can separate from the gas.  This phase separation occurs much easier if there is oil present in the gasoline.  

   

I did however do a quick search for solubility of water into gasoline.  There were several notations of this but they almost all related to the water actually forming a solution with ethanol in the gas.  There is a reference to the addition of salt HCL in the water making it more soluble for gasoline if the concentrations of HCL are correct.    

   

I searched further and found this.  

   

“Gasoline and water do not mix because the non-polar hydrocarbon molecules (water is polar) would disrupt the water in such a way as to produce a structure that was actually lower entropy; therefore, the mixture is less likely to exist than the separate liquids.”  Sounds good but I can’t confirm the reliability of the source.  

   

The idea that gasoline is more conducive to carb icing or water separation over ethanol contaminated gas is lacking in substance.  Just check your chemistry books.  

   

Noel  

   

   

   

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

There is a way.  But the only way I can see of making the ethanol truly safe

from separation and carb icing is to have them fill pressurized tanks at the

refinery.  Heavy? You bet! Expensive? Right! Stupid? That's why they don't

do it!



Best answer it to not use ethanol for fuel.



The stuff is:

Prohibitively expensive in terms of monetary cost of production.

Prohibitively expensive in terms of food production taken off line

Prohibitively expensive in terms of pollution the production adds to the

environment

Prohibitively expensive to transport in its raw state

Prohibitively expensive in terms of the power it produces per unit volume

compared to oil

Prohibitively expensive in terms of the fact that money is being deflected

from a good alternative.



Get the idea?  Ethanol fuel is just prohibitively expensive and should be

avoided. 



If you happen to have a thousand gallons or so of ethanol that occurred

naturally then it would be much more feasible.  



Ethanol is not an answer to replacing oil...  It is a bad idea getting worse



In the years to come, people, will ask if we really so dumb as to use

ethanol for fuel.

Noel



 

This will be an unending and possibly dangerous effort. I can't help but 

think that time would be better spent figuring out how to modify the fuel 

system to cope with it. That would only have to be done once. Then you'd be 

able to burn the fuel you buy, unstead of throwing a portion of it away. 

YMMV

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: Ethanol removal?

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Noel Loveys [noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca]

 Get the idea?  Ethanol fuel is just prohibitively expensive and should be

 avoided. 


	


To be fair, Noel, and while I agree it is a bad idea in your country - especially when it is at the cost of corn - it may be a solution for other countries. Brazil does quite well with ethanol and think of the African countries that need to borrow money only to pay the interests of what they already owe international banks. And all that to buy crude oil that has now gone over $100 per barrel. Now, I read that there is an African tree that grows in the harshest conditions but can produce much ethanol.

I don't think energy and environmental questions can be answered in one universal way. We have to be innovative and flexible.



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

do not archive

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol removal?

 	  Quote: 	
		  I would like to see some conclusive evidence from hands on experience on why it should not be used rather than just "talk about it " and why it so bad. So far I have had nothing but good luck I guess ?

	




According her previous owner my Kitfox had been on a steady diet of avgas since it was built. I switched to mogas after I bought it and six months later I started smelling gasoline in the cabin. It turned out that my fuel lines where beginning to deteriorate. A couple months after that, I started getting some crud from my gascolator which turned out to be rust on the gascolator bowl. I suppose it's possible that it's a coincidence that these events coincided with the switch to mogas but I from the responses I got here at the time I got the impression that I was the only person on the planet that didn't know that ethanol tainted mogas would eat the mill-spec fuel lines that many Kitfoxes where built with. 



I still run with Mogas (I can scarcely afford not to) but I do wonder about what else the ethanol is eating into in my airplane.

_________________
Luis Rodriguez
Model IV 1200
Rotax 912UL
Flying Weekly
Laurens, SC (34A)

gofalke(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: Ethanol removal?

Hi Listers !

   

  I have to agree with Dave, and as I have testified repeatedly, using auto gas with the mandatory 10% gasohol in my Kitfox with fiberglass tanks, has not had any negative effect in the Chicago area since it became the law about 6 to 8 years ago.

   

  Herb Gottelt,M4-1200, 912UL

  Mt. Prospect, IL



dave <dave(at)cfisher.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave" 



I have run through my fiberglass tanks thousands of gallons of gas. I cannot guarantee you that it has ethanol but it has been law here in Canada that gas must contain ethanol so I assume it there. I am against ethanol in gas but I use it as I have no choice. So far I have had ZERO issues with it. 



IF i have to separate gas and ethanol to fly I will adapt [quote][b]

ronlee

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Ethanol removal?

I do not own a kitfox but do own and fly a zenith aircraft with aluminum tanks.

From long gone posts I've read that SOME kitfox planes have fiberglass tanks that can withstand ethanol while others will deteriorate and began separating. If I owned a Kitfox I would certainly do some research to make sure my tanks were compatible to ethanol laden gasoline. Deteriorating tanks could plug things up with particles and or dissolved fiberglass resin. If I am wrong about this, I am sure someone will straighten me out pronto!

Ron Lee

_________________
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

kitfoxpilot(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: Ethanol removal?

If you have milspec fuel lines, and are using auto gas then you need to change the lines to regular auto fuel lines.  

  

 Ray



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Ethanol removal?

 From: wingnut(at)spamarrest.com

 Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:45:24 -0700

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut(at)spamarrest.com>

 

 

 > I would like to see some conclusive evidence from hands on experience on why it should not be used rather than just "talk about it " and why it so bad. So far I have had nothing but good luck I guess ?

 > 

 

 

 According her previous owner my Kitfox had been on a steady diet of avgas since it was built. I switched to mogas after I bought it and six months later I started smelling gasoline in the cabin. It turned out that my fuel lines where beginning to deteriorate. A couple months after that, I started getting some crud from my gascolator which turned out to be rust on the gascolator bowl. I suppose it's possible that it's a coincidence that these events coincided with the switch to mogas but I from the responses I got here at the time I got the impression that I was the only person on the planet that didn't know that ethanol tainted mogas would eat the mill-spec fuel lines that many Kitfoxes where built with. 

 

 I still run with Mogas (I can scarcely afford not to) but I do wonder about what else the ethanol is eating into in my airplane.

 

 --------

 Luis Rodriguez

 Model IV 1200

 Rotax 912UL

 Flying Weekly

 Laurens, SC (34A)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176440#176440

 

 

 ======

 

 

 


	


Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.  [quote][b]

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:46 pm Post subject: Ethanol removal?

---

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:29 pm Post subject: Ethanol removal?

You must be using a different mil spec fuel line then mine.  Just put in 2 new shut off valves, fuel line removed you couldn't tell from new.  1313 hours

  

 Clint

 [quote]  From: kitfoxpilot(at)msn.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Re: Ethanol removal?

Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 23:34:48 +0000



   .ExternalClass .EC_hmmessage P {padding:0px;} .ExternalClass body.EC_hmmessage {font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma;}  If you have milspec fuel lines, and are using auto gas then you need to change the lines to regular auto fuel lines.  

 

Ray



 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: Ethanol removal?

 From: wingnut(at)spamarrest.com

 Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:45:24 -0700

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "wingnut" <wingnut(at)spamarrest.com>

 

 

 > I would like to see some conclusive evidence from hands on experience on why it should not be used rather than just "talk about it " and why it so bad. So far I have had nothing but good luck I guess ?

 > 

 

 

 According her previous owner my Kitfox had been on a steady diet of avgas since it was built. I switched to mogas after I bought it and six months later I started smelling gasoline in the cabin. It turned out that my fuel lines where beginning to deteriorate. A couple months after that, I started getting some crud from my gascolator which turned out to be rust on the gascolator bowl. I suppose it's possible that it's a coincidence that these events coincided with the switch to mogas but I from the responses I got here at the time I got the impression that I was the only person on the planet that didn't know that ethanol tainted mogas would eat the mill-spec fuel lines that many Kitfoxes where built with. 

 

 I still run with Mogas (I can scarcely afford not to) but I do wonder about what else the ethanol is eating into in my airplane.

 

 --------

 Luis Rodriguez

 Model IV 1200

 Rotax 912UL

 Flying Weekly

 Laurens, SC (34A)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176440#176440

 

 

 ======

 

 

 


	




  Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.  	  Quote: 	
		  



arget=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

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[b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:30 pm Post subject: Ethanol removal?

As you say it's different countries and different circumstances.  Most of

the third world pay a lot more for oil than the western hemisphere.  They

make their ethanol from raw materials that have no other value.  Few if any

of them use the fuel for flight.  If we could turn landfills (dumps) into

ethanol production I would be a lot more forgiving on its use for ground

fuel.  I haven't noticed an increase in the cost of sugar so their

production hasn't affected sugar production.... The price of pork, beef and

corn has however increased.  



Someone a short while ago mentioned to me about using the corn grouts to

increase the production of milk.  I did check with a local vet on that item

and it was true.  It is also true that the grouts and steroids are killing

the cattle at younger ages.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:42 pm Post subject: Ethanol removal?

Apparently there are some vinylester fillers that are supposed to be more

resistant to ethanol (whatever more resistant means) than either epoxy or

polyester.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:03 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: wingnut [wingnut(at)spamarrest.com]

 A couple months after that, I started getting some crud from my gascolator

 which turned out to be rust on the gascolator bowl.


	


Luis, several years ago I had an old car which developed a hole in the fuel tank. Because it was already an old wreck, I decided to simply glassfiber the hole but I had first to empty the tank since it was leaking fuel. It was sub-zero temperature in winter Norway and it was interesting to see that the fuel I recuperated in a bucket had small ice balls in it. The water from condensation in the tank. The reason why my tank started to leak through the rusty hole that was forming at the tank's lowest point.

I was then told that, in order to remove the water condensation from my tank I had to use once in a while "kondensfjaerner" (condensation remover) that is sold in all the petrol stations and that is simply ... ethanol. Once in the tank, it mixes with whatever water drops there is an is going through the engine with the rest of the fuel.

The practice of adding "condense remover" to petrol is mostly done during the winter, here in Norway. Because another side effect of ice droplets in the fuel is that it can block the fuel line or carburettor and stop the engine.

Disclaimer: I know very little about engines, I am merely telling what I experienced and what I have been told. 



Cheers,

Michel Verheughe

Norway

Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

do not archive

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:18 am Post subject: Ethanol removal?

Here in Sweden we have had AVGAS 92/96 UL unleaded for 25 years or more.



We use it with 25% 100LL for the motorglider with Limbach (VW) engine



Jan

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