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reinkings(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:23 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

Have just read of another 601 crashing because of early witness accounts 

describing seeing it falling with it's right wing flapping alongside of 

the fuselage.   There have been numerous discussions, including one 

response from Mr. Heinz, regarding the 'too wide' spacing of the ribs 

(suggesting there should be several more added.   Additionally, there 

have been questions regarding the strength of the wing spar/to/fuselage 

attach points and their strength under even moderate loadings.



Many respondants suggest pilot error (PIO, trying aerobatic manuevers, 

sudden control inputs for example).  As a newbie builder of the XL, I've 

decided AGAINST  proceeding with building the aircraft until some 

definite statements regarding structural integrety and perhaps even 

third party engineering tests and results on the airframe/wing systems 

are presented before continuing.



Sadly, this certainly leaves a lot of builders and wannabes confused and 

concerned about the sudden increase in wing failures.



My own thoughts are possibly installing 4 additional ribs on each wing 

and/or increasing the wing skins to ALL being .025 thickness rather than 

the .016 used in some locations.     Perhaps that and increasing the 

length of the center wing spar and spreading out the stress loads 

further along the attach points might help.



Although an attendant increase in weight is forseeable perhaps the loss 

in 'useful load' would justify these or other considerations and at 

least provide the builder/pilot with a more secure appreciation for this 

beautiful little aircraft.    I, for one, would not be upset if the 

aircraft carried less fuel (in order to stay under the LSA 1320# rule 

knowing that this increased engineering would provide a larger margin of 

error while flying it.



I am most interested in what the NTSP will report in it's findings.    

Further, I am very interested in any thoughts or ideas other 

builder/pilots are considering in these areas.

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:43 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

Early witness accounts accounts are wrong very often. If you have a

fuselage kit I will take it off your hands.

On 4/9/08, John Reinking <reinkings(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Have just read of another 601 crashing because of early witness accounts

 describing seeing it falling with it's right wing flapping alongside of

 the fuselage.   There have been numerous discussions, including one

 response from Mr. Heinz, regarding the 'too wide' spacing of the ribs

 (suggesting there should be several more added.   Additionally, there

 have been questions regarding the strength of the wing spar/to/fuselage

 attach points and their strength under even moderate loadings.



 Many respondants suggest pilot error (PIO, trying aerobatic manuevers,

 sudden control inputs for example).  As a newbie builder of the XL, I've

 decided AGAINST  proceeding with building the aircraft until some

 definite statements regarding structural integrety and perhaps even

 third party engineering tests and results on the airframe/wing systems

 are presented before continuing.



 Sadly, this certainly leaves a lot of builders and wannabes confused and

 concerned about the sudden increase in wing failures.



 My own thoughts are possibly installing 4 additional ribs on each wing

 and/or increasing the wing skins to ALL being .025 thickness rather than

 the .016 used in some locations.     Perhaps that and increasing the

 length of the center wing spar and spreading out the stress loads

 further along the attach points might help.



 Although an attendant increase in weight is forseeable perhaps the loss

 in 'useful load' would justify these or other considerations and at

 least provide the builder/pilot with a more secure appreciation for this

 beautiful little aircraft.    I, for one, would not be upset if the

 aircraft carried less fuel (in order to stay under the LSA 1320# rule

 knowing that this increased engineering would provide a larger margin of

 error while flying it.



 I am most interested in what the NTSP will report in it's findings.

 Further, I am very interested in any thoughts or ideas other

 builder/pilots are considering in these areas.

swater6

Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Minnesota-KMIC/KANE

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S

discussed offline

_________________
601 XL kit N596SW reserved
Tail, control surfaces and both wings complete. Now working on fuselage

www.scottwaters.com

Last edited by swater6 on Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:25 am; edited 1 time in total

cndmovn(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

Yet another "I am not qualified to make this opinion, I am not an aeronautical engineer, I am going to make a remark that sounds like it has weight, but I really just want to spout my mouth....." opinion.



 I heard that TMZ.com is hiring....there you can speculate, make all the unfounded and un-fact based opinions you want...and get paid!



Flame off.



Paul



On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 6:20 PM, John Reinking <reinkings(at)comcast.net (reinkings(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: John Reinking <reinkings(at)comcast.net (reinkings(at)comcast.net)>

  

 Have just read of another 601 crashing because of early witness accounts describing seeing it falling with it's right wing flapping alongside of the fuselage.   There have been numerous discussions, including one response from Mr. Heinz, regarding the 'too wide' spacing of the ribs (suggesting there should be several more added.   Additionally, there have been questions regarding the strength of the wing spar/to/fuselage attach points and their strength under even moderate loadings.

  

 Many respondants suggest pilot error (PIO, trying aerobatic manuevers, sudden control inputs for example).  As a newbie builder of the XL, I've decided AGAINST  proceeding with building the aircraft until some definite statements regarding structural integrety and perhaps even third party engineering tests and results on the airframe/wing systems are presented before continuing.

  

 Sadly, this certainly leaves a lot of builders and wannabes confused and concerned about the sudden increase in wing failures.

 

 My own thoughts are possibly installing 4 additional ribs on each wing and/or increasing the wing skins to ALL being .025 thickness rather than the .016 used in some locations.     Perhaps that and increasing the length of the center wing spar and spreading out the stress loads further along the attach points might help.

  

 Although an attendant increase in weight is forseeable perhaps the loss in 'useful load' would justify these or other considerations and at least provide the builder/pilot with a more secure appreciation for this beautiful little aircraft.    I, for one, would not be upset if the aircraft carried less fuel (in order to stay under the LSA 1320# rule knowing that this increased engineering would provide a larger margin of error while flying it.

  

 I am most interested in what the NTSP will report in it's findings.    Further, I am very interested in any thoughts or ideas other builder/pilots are considering in these areas.

 

 

 

 

 [b]

reinkings(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: Really bad news....S

I certainly do accept your observations with genuine embaressment.   Am 

only a newbie builder/pilot trying to figure it out as well.   Am not an 

aeronautical engineer and like everyone else anxiously await the 

official explanation for what happenedd.    My wife and I extend our 

condolences to the family of this pilot.      I apologize to the list 

members.    Just thinking out  loud.   I'm really discouraged about all 

this.   Still eager to remain on 'our' list.



P.S.   How does one 'take back' a posting they discover was wrong?

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S

Don't apologize, there's a bunch of people here who are thinking the same thing as you. I'm also interested in possibly beefing up the wing.



No need to apologize for being reminded by 'by the book' types, that also don't have any experience, and are even less inquisitive, that only aeronautical engineers have brains and those brains are always 100% accurate at all times, and automatically trump anyone else who may happen to attempt to thing for themselves occasionally.  LOL



 	  reinkings(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  I certainly do accept your observations with genuine embaressment.   Am 

only a newbie builder/pilot trying to figure it out as well.   Am not an 

aeronautical engineer and like everyone else anxiously await the 

official explanation for what happenedd.    My wife and I extend our 

condolences to the family of this pilot.      I apologize to the list 

members.    Just thinking out  loud.   I'm really discouraged about all 

this.   Still eager to remain on 'our' list.



P.S.   How does one 'take back' a posting they discover was wrong?

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S

Andy, you are completely free to put as many ribs in your wings as you like. But until it has been proved that such a change won't NEGATIVELY effect the strength of the wing I think I'll stay with a AE's design and everyone else should as well.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

ernieth(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: Really bad news....S

I guess

fuel =0 stall spin



But I am not an accident investigator I just play one on the Internet



Do not archive

On 4/10/08, John Reinking <reinkings(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I certainly do accept your observations with genuine embaressment.   Am

 only a newbie builder/pilot trying to figure it out as well.   Am not an

 aeronautical engineer and like everyone else anxiously await the

 official explanation for what happenedd.    My wife and I extend our

 condolences to the family of this pilot.      I apologize to the list

 members.    Just thinking out  loud.   I'm really discouraged about all

 this.   Still eager to remain on 'our' list.



 P.S.   How does one 'take back' a posting they discover was wrong?

frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: Really bad news....S

I doubt there are many pilots who do not understand that a stall/spin in the event of an engine stoppage is likely to be fatal, yet there are hundreds, if not thousands, of such fatal accidents on record, including the 601 that went down near Bryce, VA.  I would love to be able to say that I would have the willpower to keep the nose down in the event of an engine stoppage, but the record is replete with pretty good pilots who didn't.  We don't know that the fuel tanks were dry in this accident, although what little evidence is available to outsiders suggests that fuel exhaustion was a possibility, including reports of engine noise changes from witnesses, no fire after the crash, and the proximity of the crash site to a destination.  Even if the cause of this accident is not a stoppage due to fuel exhaustion, it still is good to remember that powered aircraft fly better when there is still fuel in the tanks, ergo, stretching range is not a good idea, and when the engine stops, the pilot needs to keep the plane from stalling, especially in a very light aircraft with relatively low momentum.

[quote] Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:18:10 -0400

 From: ernieth(at)gmail.com

 To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Really bad news....S

 --> Zenith-List message posted by: ernie <ernieth(at)gmail.com>

 I guess

 fuel =0 stall spin

 But I am not an accident investigator I just play one on the Internet

 Do not archive

 On 4/10/08, John Reinking <reinkings(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 > --> Zenith-List message posted by: John Reinking <reinkings(at)comcast.net>

 >

 > I certainly do accept your observations with genuine embaressment. Am

 > only a newbie builder/pilot trying to figure it out as well. Am not an

 > aeronautical engineer and like everyone else anxiously await the

 > official explanation for what happenedd. My wife and I extend our

 > condolences to the family of this pilot. I apologize to the list

 > members. Just thinking out loud. I'm really discouraged about all

 > this. Still eager to remain on 'our' list.

 >

 > P.S. How does one 'take back' a posting they discover was wrong?

 >

 >

 &gt======

More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: Really bad news....S

Hi Frank,



Thank you for the astute analysis of the recent incident.  While it 

doesn't reach the level of "Fact" it certainly sounds like a reasoned 

and reasonable analysis.



I have been following the incidents with the XL very closely since I 

expect to get mine in the air soon.  One aspect that sticks out for 

me is the recent sale of now two of the planes.  Until your comments 

I could not think of why this is important, but I also could not 

ignore the correlation between the unusual accidents with the also 

unusual sales.  A similar event occurred with John Denver when he 

purchased a home built plane and suffered a fuel starvation 

accident.  Perhaps the fact that a new owner of a questionably 

documented home built plane might not have a good handle on fuel 

consumption, fuel management, and flight planning for that plane is a 

significant issue.



Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive

At 10:46 AM 4/10/2008, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I doubt there are many pilots who do not understand that a 

stall/spin in the event of an engine stoppage is likely to be fatal, 

yet there are hundreds, if not thousands, of such fatal accidents on 

record, including the 601 that went down near Bryce, VA.  I would 

love to be able to say that I would have the willpower to keep the 

nose down in the event of an engine stoppage, but the record is 

replete with pretty good pilots who didn't.  We don't know that the 

fuel tanks were dry in this accident, although what little evidence 

is available to outsiders suggests that fuel exhaustion was a 

possibility, including reports of engine noise changes from 

witnesses, no fire after the crash, and the proximity of the crash 

site to a destination.  Even if the cause of this accident is not a 

stoppage due to fuel exhaustion, it still is good to remember that 

powered aircraft fly better when there is still fuel in the tanks, 

ergo, stretching range is not a good idea, and when the engine 

stops, the pilot needs to keep the plane from stalling, especially 

in a very light aircraft with relatively low momentum.

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:19 am Post subject: Really bad news....S

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 11:01:58AM -0700, Paul Mulwitz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Perhaps the fact that a new owner of a questionably documented home built

 plane might not have a good handle on fuel consumption, fuel management,

 and flight planning for that plane is a significant issue.


	


This is one reason I plan to spend several hours with CFIs at the AMD

factory before flying off with my new plane.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC                   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com      http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (FRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: Really bad news....S

Stall Spin from lack of fuel...???... NOT!

I fly sailplanes often without fuel and it only spins when I make it...  go 

figure..

SW

---

MHerder

Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Fort Worth TX

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S

Paul,



I agree with your statement about the unusual circumstances of the sale, but just wanted to point out that this aircraft was manufactured by Czech Airworks I believe.  Also... To Frank, thank you for your well thought well stated input as well.

I am concerned about the situation, however I remain confident that if there is any problem Zenith will address appropriately.  I'll ask again, does anyone have info as to whether or not the elevator mod was installed?

_________________
Zodiac 601 HD
Jabiru 3300
Wood Sensinich 64x47
Finally Flying

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S

 	  psm(at)att.net wrote: 	
		  Hi Frank,

... Perhaps the fact that a new owner of a questionably 

documented home built plane ....

Paul

XL fuselage

do not archive

	




The plane in question was factory built. Here is the web site advertising the sale of the plane:



http://www.nowakfamily.com/airplane.htm

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:31 am Post subject: Re: Really bad news....S

And without a doubt flying sailplanes has made you a better pilot. BUT most pilots don't have any experience flying sans engine and it is the most natural thing in the world to pull back on the stick when the plane is loosing altitude no matter what your speed is. It is something that has to be trained out of you.

 	  notsew_evets(at)frontiern wrote: 	
		  Stall Spin from lack of fuel...???... NOT!

I fly sailplanes often without fuel and it only spins when I make it...  go 

figure..

SW

---

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Iberplanes

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Posts: 174
Location: Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: Really bad news....S

Why  don´t we stop all this rumors and guessing once and for all and hire an 

independent engineer to check the plane and the design really hard.



Is that so hard to do? We´ve invested good money on the kits, and now what? 

cant we afford a couple of u$s and get answers to our questions and fears? 

Come on !!!



Alberto Martin

Iberplanes IGL

http://www.iberplanes.es

Igualada - Barcelona - España



---

_________________
Alberto Martin
601 XL - Jabiru 3300
http://www.iberplanes.es
Igualada - Barcelona - Spain

lwhitlow

Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Valparaiso Indiana

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: Accuracy, Discussions, and Risks (Re: Really bad news....S)

In response to a number of threads regarding the structural integrity of the 601XL;



Perhaps you might want to review the plans and assembly manual before you make a recommendation about skin thickness



I just walked out to my shop to be sure but my 601XL plans (August 2005) and my kit (November 2005) specify and have .025 wing skins. IRRC that change was made a number of years ago, after a number of builders noted difficulty in not damaging the .019 skins. As far as I know, this has been the spec for a number of years.



Remember on the internet "nothing ever goes away". By posting bad information and the resultant suggestions on how to "strengthen things", you can easily wind up doing far more harm than good.



A open an honest discussion between people who are willing to listen to others ideas and comment constructively about the issues is much more likely to have productive results.



I look forward to flying my 601XL in less than a year. And if I need to make any modifications, that Zenith recommends then I will.



I respect many people's desire to have a independent design engineer look at the design. It could shed some useful insight, or it could produce nothing more than " the wing/spar design meets the specifications for the aircraft", in which case we would still be left with an number of un-answered questions.



Lets face reality here, most GA accidents cannot have a root cause determined with 100% accuracy. With only the crash remains, and the absence of a Flight Data Recorder, many times the most likely scenario is the final determination. 



Build these airplanes to the designers specifications. Operate them within the designers specifications. Thats the key to safety. 



There will always be risks. The Wright brothers took risks, but they reduced them as much as possible, and then accepted the rest. No machine built by a man is immune to failure. 



If you can do something that will reduce your risk, do it, but don't do something that is nothing more that security theater. A rib here. a thicker skin there, if your a loads engineer it might be a good choice, if not security theater.



If your not ready to accept the risks of flight, then don't fly

If your not ready to accept the risks of flying an aircraft that you built, then don't build one.

If your looking for a 100% failure proof aircraft, realize your wait might be a long one.



Its time to turn the key, pull the chocks, and explore the sky



Larry Whitlow

601XL 75% done 85% to go

Northwest Indiana

 	  reinkings(at)comcast.net wrote: 	
		  Have just read of another 601 crashing because of early witness accounts 

/// SNIP ///

Sadly, this certainly leaves a lot of builders and wannabes confused and 

concerned about the sudden increase in wing failures.



My own thoughts are possibly installing 4 additional ribs on each wing 

and/or increasing the wing skins to ALL being .025 thickness rather than 

the .016 used in some locations.     Perhaps that and increasing the 

length of the center wing spar and spreading out the stress loads 

further along the attach points might help.



Although an attendant increase in weight is forseeable perhaps the loss 

in 'useful load' would justify these or other considerations and at 

least provide the builder/pilot with a more secure appreciation for this 

beautiful little aircraft.    I, for one, would not be upset if the 

aircraft carried less fuel (in order to stay under the LSA 1320# rule 

knowing that this increased engineering would provide a larger margin of 

error while flying it.



I am most interested in what the NTSP will report in it's findings.    

Further, I am very interested in any thoughts or ideas other 

builder/pilots are considering in these areas.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Accuracy, Discussions, and Risks (Re: Really bad news...

 	  lwhitlow wrote: 	
		  

If your not ready to accept the risks of flight, then don't fly

If your not ready to accept the risks of flying an aircraft that you built, then don't build one.

If your looking for a 100% failure proof aircraft, realize your wait might be a long one.

	




Worth repeating.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:42 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

True - and worth repeating again and again!!!

"Gig Giacona" <wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

lwhitlow wrote:

> 

> If your not ready to accept the risks of flight, then don't fly

> If your not ready to accept the risks of flying an aircraft that you built, then don't build one.

> If your looking for a 100% failure proof aircraft, realize your wait might be a long one.

> 

Worth repeating.



--------

W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

601XL Under Construction

See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

Joemotis(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:43 pm Post subject: Really bad news....S

In a message dated 4/10/2008 9:59:41 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  wr.giacona(at)suddenlink.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I think    I'll stay with a AE's design and everyone else should as  well 	


 

 Who died and left you in charge of the design and modifications on the  Experimental aircraft that I am building????

 It is called Experimental for a reason, Gig. 

  

 Joe Motis

 Do not archive.



Planning your summer road trip? Check out AOL Travel Guides.

  [quote][b]

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