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peteohms
Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 224 Location: Leander, TX
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Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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I just bought a Used Kitfox III in Arizona and yesterday flew it to within
100 miles of El Paso before I ran out of daylight. This morning while doing
a walk around before the final leg home I found that the blades were loose.
The good Lord was looking after me as I flew it yesterday for 6 hours
without a problem. One blade was so loose I turned it by hand. It had an
annual the day I bought the plane. I suspect it was loose when I left AZ
but I never checked as it was not on my checklist. It had been stored in an
enclosed storage container for probably a couple years.
Is there a fix or is the prop trash?
Pete
Kitfox III N73BH
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_________________ Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove |
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 1204 Location: Ramona, CA
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Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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At 12:28 PM 4/5/2008, you wrote:
Quote: | Is there a fix or is the prop trash?
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Pete,
Need more info. What prop? What's loose? I would say a close
inspection after disassembly is certainly in order. More depends on
the prop and what's found.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
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_________________ Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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peteohms
Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 224 Location: Leander, TX
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Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:38 pm Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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After doing a little research online, it turns out that the GSC props are
only good for 5 years or 500 hours. This prop is 14 years old and has
probably 400 hours on it.
Pete
Kitfox III N73BH
PS. Yes I will be in church tomorrow.
---
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_________________ Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove |
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Tom Jones
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 752 Location: Ellensburg, WA
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Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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Pete, don't throw that prop out yet. I haven't heard about the 5 year or 500 hour limit on the GSC prop. That sounds funny.
If the plane just went through a condition inspection, possibly the bolts were loosened to adjust the pitch or re-torque it and the mechanic forgot to re-torque it. it is strange though that the loose blade didn't move in flight and cause a significant vibration.
Don't try to tighten bolts unless you have the instructions on setting the pitch and torquing and follow them closely. GSC props have been ruined by improper torquing procedure.
There should be about a .020 in. gap between the hub halves when the blades are torqued. If you get to the proper torque and the hub halves are touching then the prop has been over torqued in the past and is probably ruined but there is a hen house fix with paper shims that some people have used.
If you don't find a copy of the instructions for that prop let me know, I should have a set in my manual I can scan and email.
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_________________ Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA |
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peteohms
Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 224 Location: Leander, TX
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Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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Tom,
Well there was NO gap between hub halves and the bolts were plenty tight. I
took the prop apart and it looks brand new inside and out. I just made some
aluminum shims for the inside of both halves. They appear to work. I do
have the instructions. It seems like it would be easier to fly it the 60 or
so miles than to try to find a trailer that will fit.
Pete
Kitfox III 912 N73BH
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_________________ Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove |
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Tom Jones
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 752 Location: Ellensburg, WA
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Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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peteohms wrote: | Tom,
Well there was NO gap between hub halves and the bolts were plenty tight. I
took the prop apart and it looks brand new inside and out. I just made some
aluminum shims for the inside of both halves. They appear to work. I do
have the instructions. It seems like it would be easier to fly it the 60 or
so miles than to try to find a trailer that will fit.
Pete
Kitfox III 912 N73BH
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Pete, your prop situation is different than I have heard of. That being the bolts are tight, hub halves touching, and the blades still loose. The blade roots can be crushed and thus damaged if it has been over-torqued in the past.
People have reported a blade slipping in flight due to over torqueing, which crushes the blade root and the hub halves touch. Being able to turn a blade by hand with the bolts tight indicates to me that either the blade root diameter is too small or the hub sockets too large. GSC keeps a record of blade serial numbers (I think) so may be able to shed some light on the issue for you. Probably won't be able to get ahold of anyone there until Monday though.
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_________________ Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA |
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peteohms
Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 224 Location: Leander, TX
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Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:11 pm Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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Thanks Tom,
This plane has been through about 6 owners. Bound to be one of them that
over tightened the hub. I really don't like the complexity of the ground
adjustable. I would prefer fixed pitch. The instructions that came with
the prop leave allot to be desired and the GSC web site is even less
helpful.
Pete
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_________________ Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove |
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roncarolnikko(at)hotmail. Guest
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Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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Pete The by the book crowd will insist the prop is junk and it may be. I would think if it were overtightened to that degree there would be material pressed into the parting line. I just wonder if maybe it's dryer than a popcorn fart in Texas and Arizona. I'll bet after about two days on the Oregon coast you would have your .020 gap at the parting line. Raining like hell here so I'm probably just all wet. Ron NB Ore KF IV, Avid A, C152
Quote: | From: apeterchristensen(at)sbcglobal.net
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: CGS Prop blades Loose
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 13:28:02 -0600
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Pete Christensen" <apeterchristensen(at)sbcglobal.net>
I just bought a Used Kitfox III in Arizona and yesterday flew it to within
100 miles of El Paso before I ran out of daylight. This morning while doing
a walk around before the final leg home I found that the blades were loose.
The good Lord was looking after me as I flew it yesterday for 6 hours
without a problem. One blade was so loose I turned it by hand. It had an
annual the day I bought the plane. I suspect it was loose when I left AZ
but I never checked as it was not on my checklist. It had been stored in an
enclosed storage container for probably a couple years.
Is there a fix or is the prop trash?
Pete
Kitfox III N73BH
&======================
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Get in touch in an instant. Get Windows Live Messenger now.
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thesupe(at)hotmail.com Guest
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Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:33 pm Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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Others may have other opinions, but it you need a different prop, go with an IVO, it is the easiest to adjust of them all and performs quite well. The nice thing about an adjustable prop, compared to a fixed pitch prop is that if the fixed prop isn't right, you just spent a bunch of money for nothing, or at least not really what you want. With the adjustable, you set it where you want it. For instance, if you want to fly a cross country, maybe you add a bit of pitch for better cruise speed, but later, you are trying to get out of some short strips, you can take out some pitch and have more of a climb prop. I now have a Jabiru in my Avid, and really do miss being able to set the prop up the way I want it like I could with the 582 before. Just my 2 cents worth, Jim Chuk
[quote] From: apeterchristensen(at)sbcglobal.net
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: CGS Prop blades Loose
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 20:09:05 -0600
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Pete Christensen" <apeterchristensen(at)sbcglobal.net>
Thanks Tom,
This plane has been through about 6 owners. Bound to be one of them that
over tightened the hub. I really don't like the complexity of the ground
adjustable. I would prefer fixed pitch. The instructions that came with
the prop leave allot to be desired and the GSC web site is even less
helpful.
Pete
---
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kitfox_robert(at)yahoo.co Guest
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Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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I had a a three blad GSC prop on my Quad City challenger and it slipped in the hub too. After readjusting it I could get it to stop slipping but what an awful lot of work. The IVO prop is very easy to aduust in comparison.
Robert
San Diego
Former II/582
V/0200 N200KF
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dave
Joined: 22 Sep 2006 Posts: 1382
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Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:09 am Post subject: Re: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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Pete,
I would consider your GSC blades to be "expired" . Also I would not use them if the alum blocks at touching. This means that it has likely been over tightened in the past. GSc makes a decent prop but once the root ends are compromised you are facing a blade departure now without a moments notice.
I will say that the IVO does seem to perform better on a 912 than a GSC does. ON a 582 I would say the differences are minimal. I sell props and if GSC has blades in stock you can get shipped overnight. If not it might be a week or so. IVO usually in stock. WARP is taking 8 to 12 weeks now. GSC replacment blades are about 200$ each. I would change them all.
If you fly and loose a blade it will be costly and you could do alot of damage . Your plane should be grounded until you can replace or borrow a prop.
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_________________ Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
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peteohms
Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 224 Location: Leander, TX
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Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:34 am Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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I believe you are right about the dry. It sat in a wide truck box for a couple years baking in Arizona heat. There are NO signs of over tightening or crushing.
Pete
[quote] ---
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_________________ Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove |
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peteohms
Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 224 Location: Leander, TX
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Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:41 am Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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Thanks Chuck, I will consider an IVO.
Pete
[quote] ---
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_________________ Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove |
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peteohms
Joined: 31 Oct 2007 Posts: 224 Location: Leander, TX
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Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:52 am Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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Robert
Will the IVO bolt on the same prop hub as the gsc?
Pete
[quote] ---
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_________________ Pete
Leander, TX
Kitfox III, 912ul, Grove |
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006 Posts: 2704 Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:24 am Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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Dave
Didn't you have picture a blade departure on a float plane.. Maybe post it
so the guys can see what they are up against with a departure. Also show
them what may be required not to have an engine departure too.
Noel
--
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_________________ Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
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Rex Hefferan
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 147 Location: Olney Springs, Colorado USA "NOT a Kitpig"
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Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:13 am Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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I hope this only applies for props installed as I've got a set of new
GSC props in the box that are well over 5 years old. =-O
--
Rex Hefferan
SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
Pete Christensen wrote:
Quote: |
<apeterchristensen(at)sbcglobal.net>
After doing a little research online, it turns out that the GSC props
are only good for 5 years or 500 hours. This prop is 14 years old and
has probably 400 hours on it.
Pete
Kitfox III N73BH
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_________________ Rex
N740GP - M2/582
Colorado |
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Tom Jones
Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 752 Location: Ellensburg, WA
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Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:41 am Post subject: Re: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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Rex Hefferan wrote: | I hope this only applies for props installed as I've got a set of new
GSC props in the box that are well over 5 years old. =-O
Rex Hefferan
SE Colorado / K-II / 582-C / still waiting repairs
Pete Christensen wrote:
Quote: |
After doing a little research online, it turns out that the GSC props
are only good for 5 years or 500 hours. This prop is 14 years old and
has probably 400 hours on it.
Pete
Kitfox III N73BH
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Rex, here's a direct link to the 5 or 500 service bulletin on GSC's web site. http://www.ultralightprops.com/bulletins/bulletins.htm
It kind of implies the bulletin was implemented due to planes being bought and sold and the new owners having no way to be certain the prop bolts had never been over torqued. But, it does kind of leave you hanging. If you want to throw the prop away, I'll take it off your hands. Just kidding, probably should give them a call and see if you get a straight answer.
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_________________ Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA |
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temco(at)telusplanet.net Guest
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Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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Noel
The blade that departed was on a float plane and was a composite blade not a
GSC and it happened to the fellow out of Montreal if I remember correctly.
It had something to do with the hub. His picture showed the departed blade
impaled into the front of the float. I think the fellows name is Gary and
his arcft was C-GOOT.
I think the above info is correct --- perhaps Gary could elaborate on this
as I am sure he is aware of the incident if it wasn't him.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Ted Palamarek
Edmonton
--
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Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 2778 Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
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Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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This ain't Dave, but the guy who had that happen was Gary Walsh, if I
recall correctly.
Lynn Matteson
Grass Lake, Michigan
Kitfox IV Speedster w/Jabiru 2200
flying w/480+ hrs/down for annual
do not archive
On Apr 6, 2008, at 9:20 AM, Noel Loveys wrote:
Quote: |
Dave
Didn't you have picture a blade departure on a float plane.. Maybe
post it
so the guys can see what they are up against with a departure.
Also show
them what may be required not to have an engine departure too.
Noel
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_________________ Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
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dave
Joined: 22 Sep 2006 Posts: 1382
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Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: Re: CGS Prop blades Loose |
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Quote: | I believe you are right about the dry. It sat in a wide truck box for a couple years baking in Arizona heat. There are NO signs of over tightening or crushing.
Pete |
Pete, You are wrong. You said the aluminum blocks are touching ?
IF you answered yes then it has been overtightened.
If anything the 2 year stint in the hot Bin did nothing to help it.
Prop is Old - get rid of it.
Dave
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