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msm_9949(at)yahoo.com
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 Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: Geo power - Was Got your attention |
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I respectfully disagree, Bradley. I think there are some of us here who fly behind 582's that are anxious to hear about proven alternatives. I love the 582's performance but for my part, I'm weary of Rotax prices and have been searching for an affordable alternative with lower fuel consumption and higher TBO. These are "experimental" aircraft afterall.
Please keep us posted on your progress, and don't let flaming contrary opinions deter you. As the wise man once said, "opinions are like a------s, everybody's got one but no one's is better than yours." 
beemer <bmwebb(at)cox.net> wrote:
[quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Beemer"
Folks,
I have a paper I wrote extolling the virtues of the Geo, but it is not appropriate for posting to this forum. Besides, it's very one-sided and opinionated, albeit absolutely truthful. It'd make someone upset.
Suffice it to say, the Geo is an excellent alternative to the 582. I don't believe Model 4 flyers will do much better than the 912, but a Turbo G13 four-cylinder would certainly work if you want it to.
Some facts about the Geo install - initially it will nickel and dime you to death. Mainly because I bought 50 things before I found one that worked well. I'd love to put together a Kitfox install kit, but there just isn't enough interest for that. After the initial installation, it will cost you next to nothing. Case in point: I just bought a third engine core locally for $100. A complete rebuild kit (new parts only) costs $300. Machining and inspection will run another $100-$300. Add a good 5-angle valve job, a performance cam, SS valves, and a crank scraper, and you're out another $400 (but get 70hp from it). Do a mild porting job at home, put it together yourself, shell out $2K- $3K for the reduction drive (or adapt a Rotax E-box!) and you're in business. 4gph on takeoff, 2gph in cruise. My M2 climbs out and cruises at 582 numbers. The 3 cylinder vibrates just as much at cruise, but start and shut-down are much better. I hear the 4 cylinder G13 is smooth as glass, but it'!
s too long for my M2 without cowl re-work. It's got 20 more hp, tho'.
In all fairness, now the bad: You won't get insurance. You wont get your money back out of it if you sell. It will weigh 50-70lbs more than the 582 (albeit the all-up flying weight will be the same). Your battery will have to go to the tail (meaning cover job and paint). From my experience, local talent at machining these is nowhere to be found. Be prepared to ride your machinist's A$$ all the way, as this ain't your dad's Chevy, and Chevy clearances won't work.
If you're not comfortable flying 1000hrs on one (even though it'll do it easily), then buy a second core and build it up as a spare for $800, and pickle it. Change motors at every annual (I can drop mine, and re-install in 2 hours), and keep a waiting spare. Like I said, once the initial expense is done, you're flying on the cheap from there on out.
I hope to have a web site explaining more, but I'm horrible at it, and time is better spent flying, ya' know? Meanwhile I'll invite you to join the Yahoo Geo list (lists, as there's two), and lurk around for more info. Feel free to ask questions. Most guys are very helpful over there with information.
Also, feel free to email me directly, I'll be as helpful as I can. Remember the Kitfox forum isn't really the proper place to discuss alternative engines (I'm ok with that).
Bradley
--------
Beemer
KF2
Read this topic online Be a better friend, newshound, and [quote][b]
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Beemer
Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:02 am Post subject: Re: Geo power - Was Got your attention |
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I am sort of hesitant to claim victory too loudly as of yet. I don't have that much time on it, and while it is mounted successfully, and runs well and I'm flying, it doesn't yet prove anything. I don't have enough time to be convincing.
I too, looked for a 582 replacement. I searched everything I could find: VW's, HKS, etc. Same process we all go through I guess. I blew off the Geo at first, mainly because of listening to a few folks who formed an opinion not based on the facts. Oh well, the Geo became the engine that kept fitting my needs and goals for the airplane. Besides, I promised my wife I wouldn't bust the bank if she LET me get an airplane.
Remember, mine is a Model 2, so the basic airframe is smaller and lighter. I don't think the Model 4 would do so well with the 3 cylinder, as it is bigger and more capable. That airframe would perform best with more horsepower.
I bought a Model 3 kit because of the higher allowable gross weight. With the M2 at the stock 950lbs and the heavy Geo, I basically turned it into a single person airplane. Well, I hate flying alone, so the extra 100lbs will be perfect I think.
It isn't plug and play, for sure. I cursed many things during the process, but in hindsight, most of that was normal teething issues of doing something different, effectively for the first time. There's not many KF/Geo examples out there to research. I broke new ground. I am also very hampered with poor local talent in things like welding and machining. There just aren't any craftsman and artists around anymore. I suppose it's fallout of living in a disposable society.
Well, it's been fun, and I'm enjoying the tinkering.
Bradley
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia |
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Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:52 am Post subject: Geo power - Was Got your attention |
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At 04:02 AM 4/16/2008, you wrote:
| Quote: | I bought a Model 3 kit because of the higher allowable gross weight.
With the M2 at the stock 950lbs and the heavy Geo, I basically
turned it into a single person airplane. Well, I hate flying alone,
so the extra 100lbs will be perfect I think.
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Bradley,
On your previous email you said it was 50-70 pounds heavier,
but the all up weight was the same. What do you mean by that? Are you
offsetting the fuel?
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
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Beemer
Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Geo power - Was Got your attention |
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Yes, exactly. The G10 burns exactly half that of a 582. This makes sense, considering equivalent hp, and 4 stroke vs. 2. So, instead of carrying 20 gallons of premium Unleaded, you get the same endurance from only 10 gallons of regular unleaded. Hence, a theoretical savings of about 70lbs (at least on my bird and the way I've been flying it).
Now, imagine if you have dual 13 gallon wing tanks. You could fill them up, and fly for over 12 HOURS before hitting a gas station. Don't know about you, but I'd think provision for in-flight bladder relief would then be my main concern.
My new M3 will have two 6 gallon wing tanks, with lockers outboard. No sense in lugging 6 jerry cans out to the hanger, when two will do.
Other small benefit - the 1.5 gallon AL header tank is now legal for VFR fuel reserves all by itself. You can fly the wing tanks completely dry, and be legal. I installed a level light in mine, so that when that light goes off, I'm done (and still legal).
Bradley
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia |
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kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: Geo power - Was Got your attention |
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All I have to sat is my Subaru runs great , has more horse power & torque and cost about half as much as a rotax including the stratus conversion. But to each his own
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Marco Menezes
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 9:40 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: Geo power - Was Got your attention
I respectfully disagree, Bradley. I think there are some of us here who fly behind 582's that are anxious to hear about proven alternatives. I love the 582's performance but for my part, I'm weary of Rotax prices and have been searching for an affordable alternative with lower fuel consumption and higher TBO. These are "experimental" aircraft afterall.
Please keep us posted on your progress, and don't let flaming contrary opinions deter you. As the wise man once said, "opinions are like a------s, everybody's got one but no one's is better than yours."
beemer <bmwebb(at)cox.net> wrote:
[quote]
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Beemer"
Folks,
I have a paper I wrote extolling the virtues of the Geo, but it is not appropriate for posting to this forum. Besides, it's very one-sided and opinionated, albeit absolutely truthful. It'd make someone upset.
Suffice it to say, the Geo is an excellent alternative to the 582. I don't believe Model 4 flyers will do much better than the 912, but a Turbo G13 four-cylinder would certainly work if you want it to.
Some facts about the Geo install - initially it will nickel and dime you to death. Mainly because I bought 50 things before I found one that worked well. I'd love to put together a Kitfox install kit, but there just isn't enough interest for that. After the initial installation, it will cost you next to nothing. Case in point: I just bought a third engine core locally for $100. A complete rebuild kit (new parts only) costs $300. Machining and inspection will run another $100-$300. Add a good 5-angle valve job, a performance cam, SS valves, and a crank scraper, and you're out another $400 (but get 70hp from it). Do a mild porting job at home, put it together yourself, shell out $2K- $3K for the reduction drive (or adapt a Rotax E-box!) and you're in business. 4gph on takeoff, 2gph in cruise. My M2 climbs out and cruises at 582 numbers. The 3 cylinder vibrates just as much at cruise, but start and shut-down are much better. I hear the 4 cylinder G13 is smooth as glass, but it'!
s too long for my M2 without cowl re-work. It's got 20 more hp, tho'.
In all fairness, now the bad: You won't get insurance. You wont get your money back out of it if you sell. It will weigh 50-70lbs more than the 582 (albeit the all-up flying weight will be the same). Your battery will have to go to the tail (meaning cover job and paint). From my experience, local talent at machining these is nowhere to be found. Be prepared to ride your machinist's A$$ all the way, as this ain't your dad's Chevy, and Chevy clearances won't work.
If you're not comfortable flying 1000hrs on one (even though it'll do it easily), then buy a second core and build it up as a spare for $800, and pickle it. Change motors at every annual (I can drop mine, and re-install in 2 hours), and keep a waiting spare. Like I said, once the initial expense is done, you're flying on the cheap from there on out.
I hope to have a web site explaining more, but I'm horrible at it, and time is better spent flying, ya' know? Meanwhile I'll invite you to join the Yahoo Geo list (lists, as there's two), and lurk around for more info. Feel free to ask questions. Most guys are very helpful over there with information.
Also, feel free to email me directly, I'll be as helpful as I can. Remember the Kitfox forum isn't really the proper place to discuss alternative engines (I'm ok with that).
Bradley
--------
Beemer
KF2
Read this topic online
Be a better friend, newshound, and | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
0123456789[b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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shinco(at)bright.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: Geo power - Was Got your attention |
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Beemer wrote:
| Quote: |
I am sort of hesitant to claim victory too loudly as of yet. I don't have that much time on it, and while it is mounted successfully, and runs well and I'm flying, it doesn't yet prove anything. I don't have enough time to be convincing.
I too, looked for a 582 replacement. I searched everything I could find: VW's, HKS, etc. Same process we all go through I guess. I blew off the Geo at first, mainly because of listening to a few folks who formed an opinion not based on the facts. Oh well, the Geo became the engine that kept fitting my needs and goals for the airplane. Besides, I promised my wife I wouldn't bust the bank if she LET me get an airplane.
Remember, mine is a Model 2, so the basic airframe is smaller and lighter. I don't think the Model 4 would do so well with the 3 cylinder, as it is bigger and more capable. That airframe would perform best with more horsepower.
I bought a Model 3 kit because of the higher allowable gross weight. With the M2 at the stock 950lbs and the heavy Geo, I basically turned it into a single person airplane. Well, I hate flying alone, so the extra 100lbs will be perfect I think.
It isn't plug and play, for sure. I cursed many things during the process, but in hindsight, most of that was normal teething issues of doing something different, effectively for the first time. There's not many KF/Geo examples out there to research. I broke new ground. I am also very hampered with poor local talent in things like welding and machining. There just aren't any craftsman and artists around anymore. I suppose it's fallout of living in a disposable society.
Well, it's been fun, and I'm enjoying the tinkering.
Bradley
--------
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Middle Georgia
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=177149#177149
Beemer,,do not feel bad for your self,,you are doing some thing alot of
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us only dream of doing.we are all looking for the idea set up of
different engines.and you have a flying example of what you have dreamed
of.and at a cost savings of money..and cheap to fly behind...dont give
up,,,and keep doing what you have been doing..find a cheaper way of
doing things.and doing what we all love to do..is FLY,,,STEVE SHINABERY
N554KF KF2 with the little mighty 582 Thanks Beemer
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