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pcowper(at)webtv.net (Pet
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

I doubt that the RV safety record can ever be brought below the general

aviation average, as these are the "sports cars" of the general aviation

fleet.  Pilots fly them for fun and excitement...not just a safe means

of transportation.



I imagine the safety record of better-handling Corvettes over the years

is much poorer that that of Chevrolet sedans.



RV pilots getting sufficient training is the key.



Pete Cowper

RV-8 #81139 (just flipped fuselage)

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

I doubt that the RV safety record can ever be brought below the general

 	  Quote: 	
		   aviation average, as these are the "sports cars" of the general aviation

 fleet.  Pilots fly them for fun and excitement...not just a safe means

 of transportation.




	


Can't agree with you.  When 75% or so of accidends are due to PILOT ERROR,

that can be fixed.  I have perhaps 1300 hours in my 6A and because it is 

"sporty"

is not an excuse to do stupid things like fly into weather, over mountains 

when the

winds are high, stall turning base or any of the other pilot error induced 

accidents.



We can and should make things better in the RV community.



Ron Lee

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

Like Clint Eastwood said..."A man has to know his limitations".



I evaluate every aircraft I fly in and many that I would not let any

family members fly, I still climb in.  Others I won't ever fly in but

will assist on Conditional Inspections. Many, the builder had little

idea of how to do things correctly but blindly followed someone else's

instructions.  We would all be safer if we flew often, flew with a

professional observer to hone our skills more frequently and maintained

our aircraft to the safest possible standards.



I have seen some atrocious fiberglass work on components of the RV-10

that are a professional embarrassment and yet scores of novice builders

will buy them and use them without regard.  I have seen many plastic

aircraft which exceed the quality of even production certificated

aircraft and push the quality of GA higher and can make most builders

proud.



Everything is out there.  Stay Safe, we lost another RV-10 last night

with two soles aboard.  "Education... now there is something every man

should strive to continue."



John Cox

Do not Archive

--

rv7(at)b4.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:53 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

On 12:32 2008-04-08 "John W. Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Everything is out there.  Stay Safe, we lost another RV-10 last night

 with two soles aboard.


	


So only one person (soul) on board?  Damn spell checkers... 



-Rob



do not archive

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: RV Safety Record

Clarify.  Are you saying RV pilots account for a major portion of pilot 

error accidents compared to pilots of all other experimental airplanes?  

I guess that COULD be true since I suspect that a majority of 

experimental aircraft are RVs.  How many RVs are flying now?  5000?  

That's more than Cessna made of models 120, 140 and probably 170 as 

well.  Also, if you go through NTSB crash reports of commercial 

aircraft, pilot error is often cited as cause or at least a contributing 

factor.  Humans make mistakes.  Period.  Take the pilot out of the 

equation and put a "perfect" computer in his/her place.  Oops, forget 

that.  Airbus tried that.  Remember the Paris Air Show when the computer 

landed the Airbus in the woods?

I don't think RV pilots have the market cornered on doing things to get 

themselves into trouble.  A lot of GA accidents deal with VFR flight 

into IFR conditions.  Yes, poor decision making perhaps, but I feel 

slighted that you think RV pilots are the only ones dumb enough to do 

stuff like that...

Maybe I'm taking it all out of context?

Scott

Ron Lee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I doubt that the RV safety record can ever be brought below the general

> aviation average, as these are the "sports cars" of the general aviation

> fleet.  Pilots fly them for fun and excitement...not just a safe means

> of transportation.

>

 Can't agree with you.  When 75% or so of accidends are due to PILOT 

 ERROR,

 that can be fixed.  I have perhaps 1300 hours in my 6A and because it 

 is "sporty"

 is not an excuse to do stupid things like fly into weather, over 

 mountains when the

 winds are high, stall turning base or any of the other pilot error 

 induced accidents.

 We can and should make things better in the RV community.

 Ron Lee

-- 

Scott

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: RV Safety Record

Maybe I'm taking it all out of context?

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Scott


	


Yes you are.  Read the Nall report...perhaps put out by AOPA.



It may be that experiemnetals have a higher accident rate than 

the certified fleet.  If so, that is even worse.



I reject the notion that we as a community cannot make things better.



It will never be a zero accident rate but what exists today is

unacceptable.



Ron Lee

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: RV Safety Record

I guess I don't see what is acceptable.  What is the accident rate per 

100,000 miles in GA experimentals compared to certified GA, commercial 

aviation and even cars and motorcycles? 

I might agree that experimentals have a higher rate of accidents than 

certified, but comparing an RV to a Cessna 150 isn't necessarily 

indicative of unacceptable accident rate.  Ever fly a 150?  Most of us 

would be hard pressed to get into trouble as fast as in an RV simply 

because things happen faster in an RV.  In a 150, if you botch a 

maneuver, just let go of the yoke and it will probably right itself.  

They are designed that way on purpose.  On the other hand, you don't see 

many people doing an airshow routine in a 150.

What is it, specifically, that appalls you about the experimental 

accident rate?

Scott

Ron Lee wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Maybe I'm taking it all out of context?

>

> Scott

 Yes you are.  Read the Nall report...perhaps put out by AOPA.

 It may be that experiemnetals have a higher accident rate than the 

 certified fleet.  If so, that is even worse.

 I reject the notion that we as a community cannot make things better.

 It will never be a zero accident rate but what exists today is

 unacceptable.

 Ron Lee

-- 

Scott

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:38 pm Post subject: RV Safety Record

Scott,before I answer this, please read the Nall report.



Then go to this website:  http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/month.asp



Read the RV accident reports for a few years and tell me

if you think it is acceptable when perhaps 75% are



PREVENTABLE



As I mentioned, not everyone would want to make an effort to 

not kill themself.  Some percentage will do something utterly

stupid and get killed.  If they did not have hull insurance, a

family and never took anyone with them I would not worry about it.



Ron Lee



---

Mark Sletten

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 43
Location: St. Jacob, IL (Near St. Louis, MO)

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

Scott <acepilot(at)bloomer.net> wrote: 

  

 	  Quote: 	
		   What is it, specifically, that appalls you about the experimental 

 accident rate?



	


Scott,



From what position are you arguing? From the tone of your questions and comments it seems you believe nothing should (or can) be done about the accident rates in the experimental community. 



Simply arguing experimental aircraft are riskier than certified aircraft (so we should EXPECT more accidents?) is a red herring -- and one that leads down a regulatory path we might wish to avoid. For I'll suggest if we, as a community, don't take care of the situation, big brother will do it for us. Now that is truly a scary thought... 



Further, I'll suggest if inexperienced pilots are flying challenging, high-performance experimental aircraft beyond their skill level, WE (the experimental aviation community) are partly to blame. How many of us personally knows someone in this situation? What have you done about it? 



Personally, I find ANY (that would be even one -- singular) PREVENTABLE accident APPALLING. 



I believe what Ron is trying to say is we should, and yes, CAN do more to reduce the number of PREVENTABLE experimental aviation accidents. And we should at least attempt to implement a solution -- one we choose ourselves; one we can live with -- before those-who-know-more-about-flying-than-we-do implements one for us. What so you suppose the FAA-approved training program would look like for an "experimental" private pilot certificate? Better yet, what do you say we just get rid of experimental aviation all together? I mean those aircraft are just too "risky" for ordinary people to be flying... 



Whether any of us chooses to believe it or not, we have already started down that path. In another post yesterday RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser(at)yahoo.com> said, "Fly (sic) is a privilege not a right." If what Rick says is true, flying is not a right but a privilege, who grants the privilege? How long before it becomes a "privilege" for which we must get permission to take a walk thru a National Forest, or build a house on our own property, or own a handgun to protect our loved ones and property? Oops, too late... 



I wonder what Orville and Wilbur would have said about the "privilege" to fly? 



Our Government is already far more involved in our personal lives than it should be. The only way to prevent further incursions into our personal FREEDOM to enjoy experimental, recreational aviation is to prove to the wider, non-flying community we are professional enough to police ourselves. 



I, for one, agree with Ron; we should, and can, do something about reducing the number of PREVENTABLE accidents. As our representative organization, EAA is the right place to start. If you think we should be doing more to police ourselves, send EAA the message accident prevention should be its number one priority. 

Regards,



Mark Sletten

Lancair Legacy FG

P.S. Now Ron, about those fiberglass airplanes...

_________________
Mark Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com

Last edited by Mark Sletten on Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

 	  Quote: 	
		   P.S. Now Ron, about those fiberglass airplanes... 


	


Nothing wrong with fiberglass airplanes...as long as they don't hit RVs.

This is not bashing fiberglass airplanes since they are perhaps the

highest performance (say cruise speed) aircraft around.   That accident

in Florida I think was one of the worst GA accidents I have every seen.



I don't know if it was preventable.  Most likely it was and it was a matter

of a chain of events that ultimately resulted in three deaths.  Hopefully 

the

NTSB analysis will provide clear information on why a go-around that may

have been attempted went so wrong.



We had two people die in an RV crash last year I think near Denver.  I have

not seen a final report but getting too slow in the pattern is a possible 

factor.



I have taken multiple AOPA on-line courses.  The weather one is very

educational for people who might choose to use weather info to skirt

between building storm cells.



Folks who are not trained in mountain flying are well advised to get such

training or take the AOPA mountain flying course.  We lost an RV somewhere

in southern NM or Texas not long ago.  The reported winds in that area

of mountains was reported to be very high (60 knots?).  I know enough

to avoid mountain flying in those conditions.



So I see a possible RV safety course as having two main components.



The first is education and that can be largely handled using the AOPA

online courses.



The second...and hardest... is trying to fix the "judgment" part of the

equation.  It does not help for me to know that high winds in the mountains

can cause bad updrafts/downdrafts/turbulence then continue a trip in those

conditions just to get home.  You have to be willing to say "this is 

unacceptable"

and land (or not start a flight) even if it means you have to pay for a 

hotel, lose

a day of work, etc.



This part would probably have to be in a group setting to exchange ideas.



Apparently Cirrus has a good safety program.  Based on some of their 

accidents,

I see the same sort of education/judgment problems that affect the entire GA

community.  Perhaps things can be "borrowed" from them.



This is not rocket science.  We don't have to have more fatalities from 

flying

into bad weather to learn that it is a bad idea.  We just have to reinforce 

the

underlying knowledge part and improve on the judgment part to start

reducing accidents.



BTW, flying is a right and I have seen someone post something from a

FAA or similar document to taht effect.



Ron Lee

truflite(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:58 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

The Airbus accident was caused by the autoland mode of

the aircraft.  It was being used to make an approach

and then the landing was to be aborted.  The autoland

mode did not disengage the throttles when the pilot

moved the yoke to disengage autoland.  Throttle

increase was minimal when the pilot firewalled the

throttles for the go around.  The rest is history.



Dave nellis



--- Scott <acepilot(at)bloomer.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <acepilot(at)bloomer.net>

 

 Clarify.  Are you saying RV pilots account for a

 major portion of pilot 

 error accidents compared to pilots of all other

 experimental airplanes?  

 I guess that COULD be true since I suspect that a

 majority of 

 experimental aircraft are RVs.  How many RVs are

 flying now?  5000?  

 That's more than Cessna made of models 120, 140 and

 probably 170 as 

 well.  Also, if you go through NTSB crash reports of

 commercial 

 aircraft, pilot error is often cited as cause or at

 least a contributing 

 factor.  Humans make mistakes.  Period.  Take the

 pilot out of the 

 equation and put a "perfect" computer in his/her

 place.  Oops, forget 

 that.  Airbus tried that.  Remember the Paris Air

 Show when the computer 

 landed the Airbus in the woods?

 

 I don't think RV pilots have the market cornered on

 doing things to get 

 themselves into trouble.  A lot of GA accidents deal

 with VFR flight 

 into IFR conditions.  Yes, poor decision making

 perhaps, but I feel 

 slighted that you think RV pilots are the only ones

 dumb enough to do 

 stuff like that...

 

 Maybe I'm taking it all out of context?

 

 Scott

 

 

 Ron Lee wrote:

 

 > 

 <ronlee(at)pcisys.net>

 >

 > I doubt that the RV safety record can ever be

 brought below the general

 >

 >> aviation average, as these are the "sports cars"

 of the general aviation

 >> fleet.  Pilots fly them for fun and

 excitement...not just a safe means

 >> of transportation.

 >>

 >

 > Can't agree with you.  When 75% or so of accidends

 are due to PILOT 

 > ERROR,

 > that can be fixed.  I have perhaps 1300 hours in

 my 6A and because it 

 > is "sporty"

 > is not an excuse to do stupid things like fly into

 weather, over 

 > mountains when the

 > winds are high, stall turning base or any of the

 other pilot error 

 > induced accidents.

 >

 > We can and should make things better in the RV

 community.

 >

 > Ron Lee

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 -- 

 Scott

 http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

 Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4

 Gotta Fly or Gonna Die

 

 



 browse

 Un/Subscription,

 FAQ,



 Forums!



 Admin.



 

 

 

 


	




__________________________________________________

acepilot(at)bloomer.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: RV Safety Record

This is the only time I'll be replying.  I've asked Ron Lee several times what he finds appaling about experimental accidents as compared to certified type accidents.  He will only respond with "read the Nall Report" and look through piles of NTSB records.  I haven't had time to read the report in depth, just glanced at it.  It says the overall trend for accidents is going down.  Yes, maneuver related incidents are up.  But it looks like that would apply just as much to certified types.

 

 I'm really getting tired of this thread.  Yes, most accidents are preventable.  But I just don't see where experimentals need to be taking the rap alone.  I've been flying since I was 15, so thats coming up on 30 years now.  Never scratched the paint on an airplane yet, so I'd say I'm pretty careful.  The majority of my time is in taildraggers without electrical systems so I've propped more airplanes than I've used a starter.  What more can I do to be safe since, thus far, I haven't contributed to the dismal accident rate?

 

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 and do not expect ANY more replies to this thread from me

 

 

 marknlisa(at)hometel.com (marknlisa(at)hometel.com) wrote: [quote]    	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: marknlisa(at)hometel.com (marknlisa(at)hometel.com)



Scott <acepilot(at)bloomer.net> (acepilot(at)bloomer.net) wrote: 

  

        	  Quote: 	
		   What is it, specifically, that appalls you about the experimental 

 accident rate?

    	
   

Scott,



 	  Quote: 	
		  From what position are you arguing? From the tone of your questions and comments it seems you believe nothing should (or can) be done about the accident rates in the experimental community. 


	


Simply arguing experimental aircraft are riskier than certified aircraft (so we should EXPECT more accidents?) is a red herring -- and one that leads down a regulatory path we might wish to avoid. For I'll suggest if we, as a community, don't take care of the situation, big brother will do it for us. Now that is truly a scary thought... 



Further, I'll suggest if inexperienced pilots are flying challenging, high-performance experimental aircraft beyond their skill level, WE (the experimental aviation community) are partly to blame. How many of us personally knows someone in this situation? What have you done about it? 



Personally, I find ANY (that would be even one -- singular) PREVENTABLE accident APPALLING. 



I believe what Ron is trying to say is we should, and yes, CAN do more to reduce the number of PREVENTABLE experimental aviation accidents. And we should at least attempt to implement a solution -- one we choose ourselves; one we can live with -- before those-who-know-more-about-flying-than-we-do implements one for us. What so you suppose the FAA-approved training program would look like for an "experimental" private pilot certificate? Better yet, what do you say we just get rid of experimental aviation all together? I mean those aircraft are just too "risky" for ordinary people to be flying... 



Whether any of us chooses to believe it or not, we have already started down that path. In another post yesterday RICHARD MILLER <rickpegser(at)yahoo.com> (rickpegser(at)yahoo.com) said, "Fly (sic) is a privilege not a right." If what Rick says is true, flying is not a right but a privilege, who grants the privilege? How long before it becomes a "privilege" for which we must get permission to take a walk thru a National Forest, or build a house on our own property, or own a handgun to protect our loved ones and property? Oops, too late... 



I wonder what Orville and Wilbur would have said about the "privilege" to fly? 



Our Government is already far more involved in our personal lives than it should be. The only way to prevent further incursions into our personal FREEDOM to enjoy experimental, recreational aviation is to prove to the wider, non-flying community we are professional enough to police ourselves. 



I, for one, agree with Ron; we should, and can, do something about reducing the number of PREVENTABLE accidents. As our representative organization, EAA is the right place to start. If you think we should be doing more to police ourselves, send EAA the message accident prevention should be its number one priority. 

Regards,



Mark Sletten

Lancair Legacy FG

P.S. Now Ron, about those fiberglass airplanes... 



  	
 -- 

Scott

http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/

Flying Corben Junior Ace - Building RV-4

Gotta Fly or Gonna Die[b]

Mark Sletten

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 43
Location: St. Jacob, IL (Near St. Louis, MO)

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

Scott <acepilot(at)bloomer.net> said:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm really getting tired of this thread.  Yes, most accidents are 

 preventable.  But I just don't see where experimentals need to be taking 

 the rap alone.  I've been flying since I was 15, so thats coming up on 

 30 years now.  Never scratched the paint on an airplane yet, so I'd say 

 I'm pretty careful.  The majority of my time is in taildraggers without 

 electrical systems so I've propped more airplanes than I've used a 

 starter.  What more can I do to be safe since, thus far, I haven't 

 contributed to the dismal accident rate?



	


Scott,



It is unfortunate you feel unable to engage in a meaningful discussion about this topic -- I'm sorry if I've said something to offend you. 



It appears from your quote above you are taking all these comments personally, as if people are saying YOU are unsafe. I don't know you, so I can't comment on your personal flying habits, airmanship or professionalism. 



From my perspective, the majority of comments are directed at the experimental aviation community as a whole -- not you personally Scott. The suggestion to read the Nall report and peruse the accident reports is simply a means to prove what all of us already knows -- the accident rate in the experimental aviation community is higher than that of the larger GA community. 



Granted, some of us are much better at assessing and mitigating risk. If your flying history matches your claims, you would appear to fall into that category. My position can best be summed up by a question: What do you do with those 30 years of experience besides keep yourself safe? 



I say we, as a segment of the flying community with a common interest, have a duty to do what we can to address an APPALLING situation -- the fact that we experience PREVENTABLE accidents at a higher rate than the rest of the GA community. 



I say, rather than ignoring our brothers and sisters who suffer an apparent lack of skill and judgment, rather than assuming there will always be idiots among us who kill themselves, let's assume we CAN, as individuals, make a difference and DO something. 



Scott, I'm not trying to "win" an argument with you. In fact, I'm deeply troubled by the possibility something I've said may have made you want to retreat farther from getting involved, especially since you seem to have so much to offer. You've been doing something right for the past 30 years, how can we use what you've learned to help those who so desperately need it? Please think about what I've said and consider remaining engaged. 



At the risk sounding like a broken record, I urge each of you who even remotely believes in what I'm saying to contact EAA and make your voice heard. EAA is our representative organization. It is large and organized. As such, it has the resources to make an impact. If there is any chance of developing and implementing a program that can improve our accident record it will start with EAA. 



Regards,



Mark

_________________
Mark Sletten
Legacy FG N828LM
http://www.legacyfgbuilder.com

joshua.siler(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

Hi all. Kind of off-topic to this thread but certainly on topic for the question of safety... I was surfing reddit.com today and randomly found a link with a picture of an RV mid somersault with it's prop in the dirt. Does anyone know the story behind this picture?

 http://img.funtasticus.org/2008/apr/moment1948/moment047.jpg

Josh

On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 5:23 AM,  <marknlisa(at)hometel.com (marknlisa(at)hometel.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: marknlisa(at)hometel.com (marknlisa(at)hometel.com)

 Scott <acepilot(at)bloomer.net (acepilot(at)bloomer.net)> said:

 > I'm really getting tired of this thread.  Yes, most accidents are

 > preventable.  But I just don't see where experimentals need to be taking

 > the rap alone.  I've been flying since I was 15, so thats coming up on

 > 30 years now.  Never scratched the paint on an airplane yet, so I'd say

 > I'm pretty careful.  The majority of my time is in taildraggers without

 > electrical systems so I've propped more airplanes than I've used a

 > starter.  What more can I do to be safe since, thus far, I haven't

 > contributed to the dismal accident rate?

 Scott,

 It is unfortunate you feel unable to engage in a meaningful discussion about this topic -- I'm sorry if I've said something to offend you.

 It appears from your quote above you are taking all these comments personally, as if people are saying YOU are unsafe. I don't know you, so I can't comment on your personal flying habits, airmanship or professionalism.

 >From my perspective, the majority of comments are directed at the experimental aviation community as a whole -- not you personally Scott. The suggestion to read the Nall report and peruse the accident reports is simply a means to prove what all of us already knows -- the accident rate in the experimental aviation community is higher than that of the larger GA community.

 Granted, some of us are much better at assessing and mitigating risk. If your flying history matches your claims, you would appear to fall into that category. My position can best be summed up by a question: What do you do with those 30 years of experience besides keep yourself safe?

 I say we, as a segment of the flying community with a common interest, have a duty to do what we can address an APPALLING situation -- the fact that we experience PREVENTABLE accidents at a higher rate than the rest of the GA community.

 I say, rather than ignoring our brothers and sisters who suffer an apparent lack of skill and judgment, rather than assuming there will always be idiots among us who kill themselves, let's assume we CAN, as individuals, make a difference and DO something.

 Scott, I'm not trying to "win" an argument with you. In fact, I'm deeply troubled by the possibility something I've said may have made you want to retreat farther from getting involved, especially since you seem to have so much to offer. You've been doing something right for the past 30 years, how can we use what you've learned to help those who so desperately need it? Please think about what I've said and consider remaining engaged.

 At the risk sounding like a broken record, I urge each of you who even remotely believes in what I'm saying to contact EAA and make your voice heard. EAA is our representative organization. It is large and organized. As such, it has the resources to make an impact. If there is any chance of developing and implementing a program that can improve our accident record it will start with EAA.

 Regards,

 Mark

-- 

Joshua Siler

503-819-8919  [quote][b]

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

I believe that was in England.  I never heard what caused the  flip.

  

 Ron Lee

 [quote]   ---

JohnInReno

Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 150

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

There is a whole sequence of shots for this event. It occurred at a fly-in in the UK. I don't have a link handy, but the discussion centered around the nose gear issue on the RV-A models.

 john

 Joshua Siler wrote: [quote]Hi all. Kind of off-topic to this thread but certainly on topic for the question of safety... I was surfing reddit.com today and randomly found a link with a picture of an RV mid somersault with it's prop in the dirt. Does anyone know the story behind this picture?

  http://img.funtasticus.org/2008/apr/moment1948/moment047.jpg

 Josh

   On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 5:23 AM, <marknlisa(at)hometel.com (marknlisa(at)hometel.com)> wrote:

    	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: marknlisa(at)hometel.com (marknlisa(at)hometel.com)

 Scott <acepilot(at)bloomer.net (acepilot(at)bloomer.net)> said:

 > I'm really getting tired of this thread.  Yes, most accidents are

 > preventable.  But I just don't see where experimentals need to be taking

 > the rap alone.  I've been flying since I was 15, so thats coming up on

 > 30 years now.  Never scratched the paint on an airplane yet, so I'd say

 > I'm pretty careful.  The majority of my time is in taildraggers without

 > electrical systems so I've propped more airplanes than I've used a

 > starter.  What more can I do to be safe since, thus far, I haven't

 > contributed to the dismal accident rate?

 Scott,

 It is unfortunate you feel unable to engage in a meaningful discussion about this topic -- I'm sorry if I've said something to offend you.

 It appears from your quote above you are taking all these comments personally, as if people are saying YOU are unsafe. I don't know you, so I can't comment on your personal flying habits, airmanship or professionalism.

 >From my perspective, the majority of comments are directed at the experimental aviation community as a whole -- not you personally Scott. The suggestion to read the Nall report and peruse the accident reports is simply a means to prove what all of us already knows -- the accident rate in the experimental aviation community is higher than that of the larger GA community.

 Granted, some of us are much better at assessing and mitigating risk. If your flying history matches your claims, you would appear to fall into that category. My position can best be summed up by a question: What do you do with those 30 years of experience besides keep yourself safe?

 I say we, as a segment of the flying community with a common interest, have a duty to do what we can address an APPALLING situation -- the fact that we experience PREVENTABLE accidents at a higher rate than the rest of the GA community.

 I say, rather than ignoring our brothers and sisters who suffer an apparent lack of skill and judgment, rather than assuming there will always be idiots among us who kill themselves, let's assume we CAN, as individuals, make a difference and DO something.

 Scott, I'm not trying to "win" an argument with you. In fact, I'm deeply troubled by the possibility something I've said may have made you want to retreat farther from getting involved, especially since you seem to have so much to offer. You've been doing something right for the past 30 years, how can we use what you've learned to help those who so desperately need it? Please think about what I've said and consider remaining engaged.

 At the risk sounding like a broken record, I urge each of you who even remotely believes in what I'm saying to contact EAA and make your voice heard. EAA is our representative organization. It is large and organized. As such, it has the resources to make an impact. If there is any chance of developing and implementing a program that can improve our accident record it will start with EAA.

 Regards,

 Mark

 -- 

 Joshua Siler

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_________________
John Morgensen
RV-9A - Born on July 3, 2013
RV4 - for sale

gyoung

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Republic of Texas

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

As one who has contributed to the accident stats I have a unique, if

unwanted, perspective of some simple things we can all do. I got a lot of

help in double checking the plane and adding extra padding to the

glareshield. One person though told me afterward that he had noticed black

smoke during my earlier engine starts but didn't say anything. I wish he

had. In talking to Don at AFP it was not the cause but it might have caused

me to step back and run more tests. I also wish someone would have suggested

waiting until morning rather than launching on a 104 degree afternoon. I

thought I was pretty well prepared for my flight but there is always

something more and others' perspectives and observations are valuable. I

don't know if it would have changed the outcome but knowing there was a path

not taken is one of the few things that continues to bug me. Maybe just a

hint is all it takes for someone to rethink their actions and choose a

different path.



I used to be quiet like most. Not any more. I've called the tower when I

thought certain controllers were unsafe. I tell friends (and strangers) when

I see something wearing, when their engine just doesn't sound right or just

when something strikes me as off but I don't know why. I've even nagged them

when they didn't take action I thought they should. I'll weigh in with an

opinion on their judgment calls. So far no one's objected and most are

appreciative of another viewpoint regardless of what they decide to do. I

view my own judgment calls in a different light as well but I'm not immune

so I hope others will do the same for me. Think of what your reaction would

be after something happens. If you think you'd regret not having done or

said something then do it up front.



Regards,

Greg Young

 



[quote] --

Terry Watson

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 290
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: RV Safety Record

This is from the Air Safety Foundation, as quoted in this morning's Propwash

newsletter about General Aviation accidents:



ASF notes that "...Back in 1950, the total accident rate was 46.68 accidents

per 100,000 flight hours (the 100,000-hour measure being the statistical

standard); the fatal accident rate was 5.17 per 100,000 flight hours. Today,

both those numbers have plunged dramatically-7.05 and 1.26 per 100,000

hours, respectively. Those represent 85-percent and 76-percent drops. Fifty

years ago, newspapers and accident reports were replete with stories of

fatal buzzing accidents, hundreds of fatal forays by VFR-only pilots into

instrument weather, and scads of fatal stall-spin accidents. These sorts of

accidents still plague us now, but what a difference 50 years has made."



Of course these are not RV accidents, but I think the overall trend is

undeniable and RVs are a part of that trend. AOPA's Air Safety Foundation is

an excellent source of information to keep this trend going. 



What's an "acceptable" rate?  That's a pretty difficult question to answer

if you are talking about everyone else out there; difficult enough to become

almost meaningless and not really helpful. For me and those I love, the rate

is zero. I don't want to lose any more friends in airplane accidents, or

motorcycle accidents, or auto accidents or drug overdoses and jealous

husbands shotguns.



Let's say we wanted to be as safe as the airlines. OK, first we all need to

be flying IFR with at least two engines and two pilots and multiple backups

to everything critical. We aren't flying RVs anymore; in fact we aren't even

general aviation anymore. How many of us could afford even the simulator

hours to stay current to airlines level?



We need to recognize that what we love to do is inherently more risky than

many other activities or means of transportation, and take the steps

necessary to bring that risk down to a level that we are comfortable with.

If that level is zero we need to stay under the bed and hope to die soon of

natural causes.



Terry

--

Dick Sipp

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Hope, MI

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: RV Safety Record

What would be interesting to know is how our own RV community safety record 

measures up to the other groups tracked.  This would require an estimate of 

annual RV hours flown to then come up with the typical accidents per 100,000 

hour statistics. I guess you would have to deduct our assumed hours and 

accidents from the experimental universe and GA universe.  It would take 

someone versed in good statistical analysis and familiar with how the FAA 

and NTSB estimates hours for the GA fleet to make the comparisions valid.



Many years ago I wrote a safety article for the EAA magazine.  When we 

discussed the article EAA said they had to walk a fine line on the subject. 

Apparently they had tried some articles with the safety theme, (accident 

analysis etc.) which generated complaints. The articles were prompting 

questions from members families questioning the safety of their hobby.



I am fairly certain our RV record is showing good improvement as is all of 

the GA community.  Perhaps it is time for a serious analysis to tell the 

good story and give us some reasonable goals based on good numbers.  A good 

and improving record would have to be a good thing for all of us.  It would 

be interesting to know what the insurance companies think our record is.



Dick Sipp

RV4 sold

RV10 N110DV

jakecrause(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: RV Safety Record

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>Flying is a privilege not a right.<<<<

  
	


 Why do people keep saying that?  I see that  sentiment often on several different forums.  The attitude seems to be that the government is doing us a favor by "allowing" us to fly.  Last I checked, government serves us, not the other way around.  That being said, we allow our government to ensure that there are standards and that is a good thing for the public in general.  We can't infringe on other peoples rights to NOT have an airplane crash through their roof because of unreasonable behavior.

  

 Just my opinion.

  

 Jake Crause

 Baghdad, Iraq

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