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Death of my Harley
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lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: Death of my Harley

I have posted the reasons for removing my Harley from Skyhawg on my site  (www.skyhawg.com.  I'm not mad or  seeking revenge or anything like that, but the facts are what they are.  It  is a lesson (a very expensive one) in doing one's homework. Draw you own  conclusions if you are considering, or know anyone considering using a Harley in  a 701.  

  

 Larry, www.SkyHawg.com,  N1345L

   [quote][b]

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: Re: Death of my Harley

How about a Honda Gold Wing engine instead. They're like 1.5 liter 6 cylinder horizontally opposed. Shouuld be a pretty smooth engine. No idea on the weight but I'd imagine it would be light.

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: Death of my Harley

Andy, I am one of the first to support an alternative engine choice as a

viable alternative and a cost effective replacement. Though in the 701 I

concede that nothing will fly the plane as well as the Rotax 912S and

few will fly it better then the 80 hp Rotax 912. So if nothing can out

perform it in the weight to power and torque to the prop range then

costs are the true consideration. In Larry's case I believe that he has

spent far more then the cost of a Rotax on his past engine choices that

didn't work out, forget about the 5 extra years he has been working on

his plane. 

I am pointing this out for newbie's benefit, Larry would not have had it

any other way I believe, his joy and passion is in the build and

typically seems to be off the beaten track. I believe this to be the

attraction for Larry, though, he throws his passion and beliefs in his

choices, I applaud him for his enthusiasm, but wish to caution others. 



Going the automotive course will never match the efficiency of the Rotax

installation in the 701. In the 601 the Corvair and Subaru can get close

to the Jabiru and surpass some other choices. However, we are talking

about the 701 here and the choices are limited, I have seen some Geo

conversions that have impressed me and I had finally seen 1 VW

conversion that actually seems to be acceptable, I have in fact seen

many vw's that didn't work be removed for the Rotax. Nevertheless, a VW

must have a reduction unit to get the torque to the prop and these seem

to be the weak link in the chain of VW conversions. 



I will never tell anyone not to install an auto conversion in their

plane, I have done this in the past and have one on my 601, but I

caution new builders to research your choice. Any conversion will be a

constant care through the life of the plane, more so then an Aircraft

designed engine, plus resale value of your plane will always be

drastically lower and insurance costs will typically be higher. Try to

choose such an engine that has a FWF and is accepted as being a standard

choice, one that has a good following and proven performance across the

board for the plane will mean less aggravation as a whole.



But mostly, Please consider the costs, if a alternative engine is cost

effective and proven then it is a viable option, though it is very

likely a degradation in the planes performance. If it is not a route

well traveled then the costs will likely climb beyond the cost of the

aircraft engine installation. Choose wisely Grasshopper!



This letter is not intended for those who enjoy the tinkering and

experimentation that comes with a choice out of mainstream. It is simply

a caution to those who may not understand the process. We all hear the

hype of alternate powerplant choices, but caution has to be prudent,

costs can easily climb to be more then the accepted aircraft choice and

performance rarely comes close to a match. Once involved in such a

project it is hard to turn your back on your choice, so you work harder

to make your decision work and often you tend to support your decision

to others right or wrong.



Larry is well respected on this list by a great many members, myself

included for his determination. However, I have fielded calls over the

years about using a 2.5L Subaru and a Harley conversion in the 701

airframe. Several thought that the Harley conversion was the true way to

go. They are signs of those caught in hype and listen to the loudest

voice. Be careful in your decisions, don't follow a small group they may

all jump off the bridge together. Do your research closely and gain

opinions from several sources that are not related or knowledgeable of

each other. 



Then make an educated decision. 



As stated, this letter is not intended for seasoned builders or those

who are building for the joy of building and experimenting. It is

intended for those who are new and may not realize the trials and

tribulations of an alternate engine choice. IF your building to fly a

great plane like the 701 go with the most proven performer, that Is the

Rotax hands down. Or go with the alternate choice that has a proven

record in several like aircraft.



Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

president(at)can-zacaviation.com

www.can-zacaviation.com 



--

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:23 am Post subject: Re: Death of my Harley

 	  zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote: 	
		  Andy, I am one of the first to support an alternative engine choice as a

viable alternative and a cost effective replacement. Though in the 701 I

concede that nothing will fly the plane as well as the Rotax 912S and

few will fly it better then the 80 hp Rotax 912. So if nothing can out

perform it in the weight to power and torque to the prop range then

costs are the true consideration. In Larry's case I believe that he has

spent far more then the cost of a Rotax on his past engine choices that

didn't work out, forget about the 5 extra years he has been working on

his plane. Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

president(at)can-zacaviation.com

www.can-zacaviation.com 



-- 	




I agree, if someone is not too familiar with the process it's better to go with a known instead of an unknown. I suggested the Gold Wing engine because Larry seems to enjoy tinkering and I think a Gold Wing engine is a viable alternative. Yeah, it'll need a redrive, but then again, even a Rotax has a PSRU.  I believe the Gold Wing engine and the Rotax are of similar displacements and horsepower at 4500rpm. Being that Larry's already worked with one motorcycle engine I figured I'd throw it out there for a look see. I'm sure he'd know the pros and cons better than me, just figured he may not have considered it before. I took an interest in the Gold Wing engine a few years ago looking at one one someone's bike in parking lot and it caught my eye as a possible alternative engine which I haven't heard much about on these forums.

jerry(at)jerryhey.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 5:59 am Post subject: Death of my Harley

I agree with what Mark has said but a new player is about to be added to the engine list that may change everything.  I am speaking about the RotaMax which will be making its debut at Sun N Fun.  They had a booth at Oshkosh last year but the engines were under development.  I visited the factory a couple of months ago and was quite impressed with their approach.  I believe that a 120/130 hp Rotamax  can be installed with a FWF weight of less than 200 lbs. I have no connection  with the company at this time but in the way of full disclosure I am thinking of developing a FWF package for the 601/701.  I have had a long time interest in the rotary engine and currently supply engine mounts for  Mazda conversions for a variety of aircraft.  If you are curious about the RotaMax, their web site is http://www.rotamax.net.   Regards,  jerry    (jerryhey.com)



  



 



 

On Mar 24, 2008, at 9:42 PM, ZodieRocket wrote:[quote]

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 6:43 am Post subject: Re: Death of my Harley

The Rotomax might well be a great engine some day but I'd have to say that day is probably well off in the future. If you look at the pictures on their website they are all still computer generated and not photos of real engines. 



 	  jerry(at)jerryhey.com wrote: 	
		  I agree with what Mark has said but a new player is about to be added to the engine list that may change everything.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: Death of my Harley

Just for the record, a couple of corrections.  Since I started my 701 it has 

been a little over 3 years.  And that was off and on, I have built several 

other projects during that time, so I would say the actual time I spent 

working on this plane is less than 2 years.



I don't know the exact figures for a Rotax 912 ULS complete FW package, but 

I've heard around 17K.  Now I bought the Subaru 2.5 for $3000, redrive for 

$900, direct drive for $700.  I actually bought the Subaru with the PRSU for 

an 801, then changed my mind to a 701, tried it with a direct drive, it was 

just too heavy, 259lbs.  Sold the Subaru for $4500, direct drive for $600, 

redrive for $2500.  I am now ahead by $3000, bought the Harley for $9300. 

Now I am $6300 down,   Bought the VW complete with redrive for $2500, add 

$500 for misc. parts.  I am $9300 down.  All in all I have spent 

approximately $7700 less than I would have for a Rotax.   And I still have 

the Harley and the VW.  Now if you add time to it, that is a different 

story, but I figure I would be building something anyway, so I don't count 

it.   Now I fully expect to build an airboat with the Harley for less than a 

$2000, sell it for $10,000 or more.  Bottom line is that I should end up on 

the plus side by a few hundred dollars and have a free engine.   It's all in 

how you look at it.



Auto conversions vs Rotax is all about opinions.  There are hundreds of auto 

conversions of all kinds out there that work quite well.  Many, many Subarus 

on both Gyros and fixed wings.  Thousands of VWs.  Sure a few didn't work 

out, that's normal in this experimental world.  Rotax is a great engine even 

with it's record number of ADs.  I would love to have one, it's all about 

the price, it's just not worth it.  And of course a VW/Sub/Suz or any auto 

conversion needs a PRSU.  Does any one actually think that if a Rotax didn't 

have a high ratio reduction drive it would have any torque?



Now let's not start arguing, I just wanted to correct a few of my thoughts. 

Take care, LRM www.skyhawg.com



---

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:25 am Post subject: Death of my Harley

Yep, I have looked at a gold wing.  The problem is that you would have to 

cut the trans off, build a plate, have oil pump and oil tank external to the 

engine.  Not sure it's worth all that engineering.  Take care, LRM 

www.skyhawg.com

---

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:16 am Post subject: Death of my Harley

If you are considering viable options in the 80 HP range, I would seriously look at the Aero Conversion.  It is the same engine a lot of Sonex builders use.  Its new.  Its affordable at around $6500 or so.  You DO have to assemble it and you would know what is in it.  

  Just another option.

  Larry H



ashontz <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ashontz" 

zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Andy, I am one of the first to support an alternative engine choice as a

 viable alternative and a cost effective replacement. Though in the 701 I

 concede that nothing will fly the plane as well as the Rotax 912S and

 few will fly it better then the 80 hp Rotax 912. So if nothing can out

 perform it in the weight to  power and torque to the prop range then

 costs are the true consideration. In Larry's case I believe that he has

 spent far more then the cost of a Rotax on his past engine choices that

 didn't work out, forget about the 5 extra years he has been working on

 his plane. Mark Townsend

 Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

 president(at)can-zacaviation.com

 www.can-zacaviation.com 

 

 --


	




I agree, if someone is not too familiar with the process it's better to go with a known instead of an unknown. I suggested the Gold Wing engine because Larry seems to enjoy tinkering and I think a Gold Wing engine is a viable alternative. Yeah, it'll need a redrive, but then again, even a Rotax has a PSRU. I believe the Gold Wing engine and the Rotax are of similar displacements and horsepower at 4500rpm. Being that Larry's already worked with one motorcycle engine I figured I'd throw it out there for a look see. I'm sure he'd know the  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:20 am Post subject: Death of my Harley

It will be interesting to watch the development on it, but I for one, will not use it until it has been proven out for many, many years.

   

  Larry H



Jerry Hey <jerry(at)jerryhey.com> wrote:

  [quote]I agree with what Mark has said but a new player is about to be added to the engine list that may change everything.  I am speaking about the RotaMax which will be making its debut at Sun N Fun.  They had a booth at Oshkosh last year but the engines were under development.  I visited the factory a couple of months ago and was quite impressed with their approach.  I believe that a 120/130 hp Rotamax  can be installed with a FWF weight of less than 200 lbs. I have no connection  with the company at this time but in the way of full disclosure I am thinking of developing a FWF  package for the 601/701.  I have had a long time interest in the rotary engine and currently supply engine mounts for  Mazda conversions for a variety of aircraft.  If you are curious about the RotaMax, their web site is http://www.rotamax.net.   Regards,  jerry    (jerryhey.com)  



      



     



   

    

    



  



  



  

  On Mar 24, 2008, at 9:42 PM, ZodieRocket wrote:  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "ZodieRocket" <zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca (zodierocket(at)hsfx.ca)>



Andy, I am one of the first to support an alternative engine choice as a

viable alternative and a cost effective replacement. Though in the 701 I

concede that nothing will fly the plane as well as the Rotax 912S and

few will fly it better then the 80 hp Rotax 912. So if nothing can out

perform it in the weight to power and torque to the prop  range then

costs are the true consideration. In Larry's case I believe that he has

spent far more then the cost of a Rotax on his past engine choices that

didn't work out, forget about the 5 extra years he has been working on

his plane. 

I am pointing this out for newbie's benefit, Larry would not have had it

any other way I believe, his joy and passion is in the build and

typically seems to be off the beaten track. I believe this to be the

attraction for Larry, though, he throws his passion and beliefs in his

choices, I applaud him for his enthusiasm, but wish to caution others. 



Going the automotive course will never match the efficiency of the Rotax

installation in the 701. In the 601 the Corvair and Subaru can get close

to the Jabiru and surpass some other choices. However, we are talking

about the 701 here and the choices are limited, I have seen some Geo

conversions that have impressed me and I had finally seen 1  VW

conversion that actually seems to be acceptable, I have in fact seen

many vw's that didn't work be removed for the Rotax. Nevertheless, a VW

must have a reduction unit to get the torque to the prop and these seem

to be the weak link in the chain of VW conversions. 



I will never tell anyone not to install an auto conversion in their

plane, I have done this in the past and have one on my 601, but I

caution new builders to research your choice. Any conversion will be a

constant care through the life of the plane, more so then an Aircraft

designed engine, plus resale value of your plane will always be

drastically lower and insurance costs will typically be higher. Try to

choose such an engine that has a FWF and is accepted as being a standard

choice, one that has a good following and proven performance across the

board for the plane will mean less aggravation as a whole.



But mostly, Please consider the costs, if a  alternative engine is cost

effective and proven then it is a viable option, though it is very

likely a degradation in the planes performance. If it is not a route

well traveled then the costs will likely climb beyond the cost of the

aircraft engine installation. Choose wisely Grasshopper!



This letter is not intended for those who enjoy the tinkering and

experimentation that comes with a choice out of mainstream. It is simply

a caution to those who may not understand the process. We all hear the

hype of alternate powerplant choices, but caution has to be prudent,

costs can easily climb to be more then the accepted aircraft choice and

performance rarely comes close to a match. Once involved in such a

project it is hard to turn your back on your choice, so you work harder

to make your decision work and often you tend to support your decision

to others right or wrong.



Larry is well respected on this list by a great many  members, myself

included for his determination. However, I have fielded calls over the

years about using a 2.5L Subaru and a Harley conversion in the 701

airframe. Several thought that the Harley conversion was the true way to

go. They are signs of those caught in hype and listen to the loudest

voice. Be careful in your decisions, don't follow a small group they may

all jump off the bridge together. Do your research closely and gain

opinions from several sources that are not related or knowledgeable of

each other. 



Then make an educated decision. 



As stated, this letter is not intended for seasoned builders or those

who are building for the joy of building and experimenting. It is

intended for those who are new and may not realize the trials and

tribulations of an alternate engine choice. IF your building to fly a

great plane like the 701 go with the most proven performer, that Is the

Rotax hands down. Or go with the  alternate choice that has a proven

record in several like aircraft.



Mark Townsend

Can-Zac Aviation Ltd.

president(at)can-zacaviation.com (president(at)can-zacaviation.com)

www.can-zacaviation.com 



--

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

jerry(at)jerryhey.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:21 am Post subject: Death of my Harley

The future is now.  At Sun n Fun  you will be able to see real engines  

running and torn down.  They have engines running on the dyno  and  

other test beds such as a motorcycle and RTV that I think  you will be  

able to see perform at Sun n Fun.  I don't know if they will have an  

engine in a flying airplane but that is coming very soon.   Jerry

On Mar 25, 2008, at 10:43 AM, Gig Giacona wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 >

 The Rotomax might well be a great engine some day but I'd have to  

 say that day is probably well off in the future. If you look at the  

 pictures on their website they are all still computer generated and  

 not photos of real engines.

 jerry(at)jerryhey.com wrote:

> I agree with what Mark has said but a new player is about to be  

> added to the engine list that may change everything.

 --------

 W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

 601XL Under Construction

 See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172515#172515

jerry(at)jerryhey.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: Death of my Harley

Here are a couple of photos I took when I visited RotaMax.   These are  

both of the two rotor version which is around 130lbs and 130 hp.  They  

also have a single rotor which is much lighter, of course.   I don't  

know if the Gyro has flown or not.  I think this will be a very big  

deal for the Zenith community especially if they can have a price  

point somewhat below Rotax.  BTW,  this is not new technology but is  

based on the OMC racing outboards.      Jerry

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notsew_evets(at)frontiern
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: Death of my Harley

At one time I was very interested in the Aero  Conversion.

 Sonex sold me the assembly DVD and I watched it a  few times.  I think their product is extremely good.  I like the  availability of VW parts and the DVD made it look easy to put together.  If  I could have used 80 HP I would have purchased the VW.

  

 I went with Jabiru and so far the FWF cost me  $21K.

 The VW would have been around $10K....  total....

  

 Steve W.

 [quote]   ---

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Death of my Harley

This is a nice engine, but it would not work for well a 701, not enough thrust. Due to the short prop, mandated by its lack of a redrive, see Marks comment above.

 	  skyridersbn wrote: 	
		  If you are considering viable options in the 80 HP range, I would seriously look at the Aero Conversion.  It is the same engine a lot of Sonex builders use.  Its new.  Its affordable at around $6500 or so.  You DO have to assemble it and you would know what is in it.  

  Just another option.

  Larry H



[

_________________
â€œAlways do what you are afraid to do.â€
R.W. Emerson (1803-1882)

"Real freedom is the sustained act of being an individual." WW - 2009

"Life is a good deal...it's worth it" Feb 1969
Dorothy McCune

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: Death of my Harley

I fly on a Rotax (rent the plane) and it IS a decent running engine.....in the summer time.  Here with the colder weather, the Rotax seems to always need carb heat - constantly.  It tends to load up too at times.  The place where I rent at, the owner is a Certified Rotax repairman AND a CFI so he KNOWS what he's doing with it.  He says its one of those "quirks" that  Rotax has.....I personally looked into the cost of a Rotax for my CH601XL.  I too found out that the cost IS prohibitive coming in around $19,500 and then I would STILL have to purchase the Firewall Forward Kit too.  I was on the Zenith website and stumbled on to the Corvair engine conversion.  The cost is extremely affordable and the nicest part about it, I can do all the work on it myself.  I found 2 core engines that are totally rebuildable for $300.00 (for both).  I am guessing with everything I want to do to it, I should come in way under $5,000.   I will still have to buy a FWF kit but even that is more reasonably priced than the Rotax was.  The only OTHER engine I would have considered also was the Jabiru 3300.  But like the Rotax, it too was excessively expensive.  Don't get me wrong here, I DO like both the Rotax and the Jabiru but I DO think there are a lot of other more "affordable options" out here if you're willing to do research and work that it requires to get the end results you are looking for.  For me, dependable and affordable was my two majors goals when I decided on the Corvair.  

   

  Regards,

  Larry H



LRM <lrm(at)skyhawg.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" 



Just for the record, a couple of corrections. Since I started my 701 it has 

been a little over 3  years. And that was off and on, I have built several 

other projects during that time, so I would say the actual time I spent 

working on this plane is less than 2 years.



I don't know the exact figures for a Rotax 912 ULS complete FW package, but 

I've heard around 17K. Now I bought the Subaru 2.5 for $3000, redrive for 

$900, direct drive for $700. I actually bought the Subaru with the PRSU for 

an 801, then changed my mind to a 701, tried it with a direct drive, it was 

just too heavy, 259lbs. Sold the Subaru for $4500, direct drive for $600, 

redrive for $2500. I am now ahead by $3000, bought the Harley for $9300. 

Now I am $6300 down, Bought the VW complete with redrive for $2500, add 

$500 for misc. parts. I am $9300 down. All in all I have spent 

approximately $7700 less than I would have for a Rotax. And I still have 

the Harley and the VW. Now if you add time to it, that is a different 

story, but I figure I would be  building something anyway, so I don't count 

it. Now I fully expect to build an airboat with the Harley for less than a 

$2000, sell it for $10,000 or more. Bottom line is that I should end up on 

the plus side by a few hundred dollars and have a free engine. It's all in 

how you look at it.



Auto conversions vs Rotax is all about opinions. There are hundreds of auto 

conversions of all kinds out there that work quite well. Many, many Subarus 

on both Gyros and fixed wings. Thousands of VWs. Sure a few didn't work 

out, that's normal in this experimental world. Rotax is a great engine even 

with it's record number of ADs. I would love to have one, it's all about 

the price, it's just not worth it. And of course a VW/Sub/Suz or any auto 

conversion needs a PRSU. Does any one actually think that if a Rotax didn't 

have a high ratio reduction drive it would have any torque?



Now let's not start arguing, I just wanted to correct a  few of my thoughts. 

Take care, LRM www.skyhawg.com



---

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: Death of my Harley

Well, you might want to reconsider your options on the Corvair.  Look at this website:

  http://www.flywithgus.com/page4.html

   

  Gus is an A&P and a test pilot.  He is associated with William Wynne's "Hanger Gang" out of Florida.  Gus's 701 has the Corvair engine in it and he is doing more testing as we speak.  If you want the cold hard facts (not speculations) I would suggest you contact Gus or William and ask them what their results they are finding.  I'm positive they would be more than happy to tell you both the good and the bad (if there is any).  Keep in mind too, parts are readily available for these engines at your local auto parts store.

   

  Regards,

  Larry H



kmccune <kmccune(at)somtel.net> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "kmccune" 



This is a nice engine, but it would not work for well a 701, not enough thrust. Due to the short prop, mandated by its lack of a redrive, see Marks comment above.



skyridersbn wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   If you are considering viable options in the 80 HP range, I would seriously look at the Aero Conversion. It is the same engine a lot of Sonex builders use. Its new. Its affordable at around $6500 or so. You DO have to assemble it and you would know what is in it. 

 Just another option.

 Larry H

 

 [


	




--------

Mark Twain: Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.





Read this topic online    [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

gfmjr_20(at)HOTMAIL.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: Death of my Harley

Larry--

   I think your Rotax repairman needs some new training.  I've been flying a Rotax 912uls in my 601XL for almost 200 hours, mostly in the colder weather in New Hampshire and Maine and it has never needed carb heat. I utilize carb heat only in the pattern or slow flying work. 

    There's no question it is an expensive engine, however, I have found that it is very reliable, and requires no tweeking or tuning between suggested maintenance intervals once it is set up .

  That being said ,it sure would be nice to see a USA made engine to compete with Rotax and Jabiru both on performace and at a better price.

  

 George May

 601XL 912s ----197 hrs

 [quote]  Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:28:28 -0700

From: skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com

Subject: Re: Re: Death of my Harley

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com



 I fly on a Rotax (rent the plane) and it IS a decent running engine....in the summer time.  Here with the colder weather, the Rotax seems to always need carb heat - constantly.  It tends to load up too at times.  The place where I rent at, the owner is a Certified Rotax repairman AND a CFI so he KNOWS what he's doing with it.  He says its one of those "quirks" that  Rotax has.....I personally looked into the cost of a Rotax for my CH601XL.  I too found out that the cost IS prohibitive coming in around $19,500 and then I would STILL have to purchase the Firewall Forward Kit too.  I was on the Zenith website and stumbled on to the Corvair engine conversion.  The cost is extremely affordable and the nicest part about it, I can do all the work on it myself.  I found 2 core engines that are totally rebuildable for $300.00 (for both).  I am guessing with everything I want to do to it, I should come in way under $5,000.  I will still have to buy a FWF kit but even that is more reasonably priced than the Rotax was.  The only OTHER engine I would have considered also was the Jabiru 3300.  But like the Rotax, it too was excessively expensive.  Don't get me wrong here, I DO like both the Rotax and the Jabiru but I DO think there are a lot of other more "affordable options" out here if you're willing to do research and work that it requires to get the end results you are looking for.  For me, dependable and affordable was my two majors goals when I decided on the Corvair.  

  

 Regards,

 Larry H



LRM <lrm(at)skyhawg.com> wrote:

 [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" 



Just for the record, a couple of corrections. Since I started my 701 it has 

been a little over 3 years. And that was off and on, I have built several 

other projects during that time, so I would say the actual time I spent 

working on this plane is less than 2 years.



I don't know the exact figures for a Rotax 912 ULS complete FW package, but 

I've heard around 17K. Now I bought the Subaru 2.5 for $3000, redrive for 

$900, direct drive for $700. I actually bought the Subaru with the PRSU for 

an 801, then changed my mind to a 701, tried it with a direct drive, it was 

just too heavy, 259lbs. Sold the Subaru for $4500, direct drive for $600, 

redrive for $2500. I am now ahead by $3000, bought the Harley for $9300. 

Now I am $6300 down, Bought the VW complete with redrive for $2500, add 

$500 for misc. parts. I am $9300 down. All in all I have spent 

approximately $7700 less than I would have for a Rotax. And I still have 

the Harley and the VW. Now if you add time to it, that is a different 

story, but I figure I would be building something anyway, so I don't count 

it. Now I fully expect to build an airboat with the Harley for less than a 

$2000, sell it for $10,000 or more. Bottom line is that I should end up on 

the plus side by a few hundred dollars and have a free engine. It's all in 

how you look at it.



Auto conversions vs Rotax is all about opinions. There are hundreds of auto 

conversions of all kinds out there that work quite well. Many, many Subarus 

on both Gyros and fixed wings. Thousands of VWs. Sure a few didn't work 

out, that's normal in this experimental world. Rotax is a great engine even 

with it's record number of ADs. I would love to have one, it's all about 

the price, it's just not worth it. And of course a VW/Sub/Suz or any auto 

conversion needs a PRSU. Does any one actually think that if a Rotax didn't 

have a high ratio reduction drive it would have any torque?



Now let's not start arguing, I just wanted to correct a few of my thoughts. 

Take care, LRM www.skyhawg.com



---

kmccune

Joined: 22 Sep 2007
Posts: 577
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Death of my Harley

skyridersbn,



The quote below my comment is not about the Corvair, it is about a direct drive VW kit engine. The kit engine IS a great concept, but it just won't turn a 3 blade 72" prop. The Corvair is a good engine, and I believe will make the 701 stand on its tail. It is a little heavy but the CG can be brought in line.I think it needs a 5th bearing for the 701. And it will reduce the crew and cargo by 40-80lbs. Depends on your intent. 



Kevin

Larry Hursh

Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 125
Location: Edwardsburg, MI (near Elkhart, IN)

Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Death of my Harley

I'm not sure what is actually up with the Rotax honestly.  The last several times I flew it, it just wasn't acting right.  I had gone up with my CFI and he was more aware of it than I was.  It was acting like it was loading up and then it would clear out.  The CFI told me to just keep adding carb heat to it....so I did.  This engine has well over 1,100 hours on it and I would think its getting pretty well run out.  Maybe that is what's happening to it....the last time I flew it before the snow hit, it was still warm outside and it ran strong.  I'd asked my CFI if it could be needing plugs and he said it had just been tuned up.  (He is a Certified Rotax repairman but he has the work done by an actual A&P).  Not sure what is going on with it honestly but I know I wasn't happy with the way it was flying last time I flew it.  Not a good feeling......not at all.

   

  Larry H



george  may <gfmjr_20(at)hotmail.com> wrote:

  [quote]    .hmmessage P  {  margin:0px;  padding:0px  }  body.hmmessage  {  FONT-SIZE: 10pt;  FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma  }    Larry--

  I think your Rotax repairman needs some new training.  I've been flying a Rotax 912uls in my 601XL for almost 200 hours, mostly in the colder weather in New Hampshire and Maine and it has never needed carb heat. I utilize carb heat only in the pattern or slow flying work. 

   There's no question it is an expensive engine, however, I have found that it is very reliable, and requires no tweeking or tuning between suggested maintenance intervals once it is set up .

 That being said ,it sure would be nice to see a USA made engine to compete with Rotax and Jabiru both on performace and at a better price.

 

George May

601XL 912s ----197  hrs

  [quote]    Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 11:28:28 -0700

From: skyridersbn(at)yahoo.com

Subject: Re: Re: Death of my Harley

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com



  I fly on a Rotax (rent the plane) and it IS a decent running engine.....in the summer time.  Here with the colder weather, the Rotax seems to always need carb heat - constantly.  It tends to load up too at times.  The place where I rent at, the owner is a Certified Rotax repairman AND a CFI so he KNOWS what he's doing with it.  He says its one of those "quirks" that  Rotax has.....I personally looked into the cost of a Rotax for my CH601XL.  I too found out that the cost IS prohibitive coming in around $19,500 and then I would STILL have to purchase the Firewall Forward Kit too.  I was on the Zenith website and stumbled on to the Corvair engine conversion.  The cost is extremely affordable and the nicest part about it, I can do all  the work on it myself.  I found 2 core engines that are totally rebuildable for $300.00 (for both).  I am guessing with everything I want to do to it, I should come in way under $5,000.  I will still have to buy a FWF kit but even that is more reasonably priced than the Rotax was.  The only OTHER engine I would have considered also was the Jabiru 3300.  But like the Rotax, it too was excessively expensive.  Don't get me wrong here, I DO like both the Rotax and the Jabiru but I DO think there are a lot of other more "affordable options" out here if you're willing to do research and work that it requires to get the end results you are looking for.  For me, dependable and affordable was my two majors goals when I decided on the Corvair.  

   

  Regards,

  Larry H



LRM <lrm(at)skyhawg.com> wrote:

  [quote]--> Zenith-List message posted by: "LRM" 



Just for the record, a couple of corrections. Since I started my 701 it has 

been a little over 3 years. And that was off and on, I have built several 

other projects during that time, so I would say the actual time I spent 

working on this plane is less than 2 years.



I don't know the exact figures for a Rotax 912 ULS complete FW package, but 

I've heard around 17K. Now I bought the Subaru 2.5 for $3000, redrive for 

$900, direct drive for $700. I actually bought the Subaru with the PRSU for 

an 801, then changed my mind to a 701, tried it with a direct drive, it was 

just too heavy, 259lbs. Sold the Subaru for $4500, direct drive for $600, 

redrive for $2500. I am now ahead by $3000, bought the Harley for $9300. 

Now I am $6300 down, Bought the VW complete with redrive for $2500, add 

$500 for misc. parts. I am $9300 down. All in all I have spent  

approximately $7700 less than I would have for a Rotax. And I still have 

the Harley and the VW. Now if you add time to it, that is a different 

story, but I figure I would be building something anyway, so I don't count 

it. Now I fully expect to build an airboat with the Harley for less than a 

$2000, sell it for $10,000 or more. Bottom line is that I should end up on 

the plus side by a few hundred dollars and have a free engine. It's all in 

how you look at it.



Auto conversions vs Rotax is all about opinions. There are hundreds of auto 

conversions of all kinds out there that work quite well. Many, many Subarus 

on both Gyros and fixed wings. Thousands of VWs. Sure a few didn't work 

out, that's normal in this experimental world. Rotax is a great engine even 

with it's record number of ADs. I would love to have one, it's all about 

the price, it's just not worth it. And of course a VW/Sub/Suz or any auto 

conversion needs a  PRSU. Does any one actually think that if a Rotax didn't 

have a high ratio reduction drive it would have any torque?



Now let's not start arguing, I just wanted to correct a few of my thoughts. 

Take care, LRM www.skyhawg.com



---

_________________
Larry Hursh (N650LM Reserved)

"One rivet at a time......one day at a time.."

CH650 (Converted from CH601XL)
1/2 done with fuselage
will be Corvair Powered

monte(a)rotaryae(dot)com

Joined: 21 Apr 2008
Posts: 1
Location: Utah

Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Death of my Harley

I just joined your forum and thought I'd address some of the facts stated here. I'm the Director of Sales & Marketing at Rotary Aircraft Engines. We are the only licensed worldwide distributer of the aviation version of this engine that Rotamax is developing. We currently have the Rotamax engine flying in the Sadler Vampire and the Sparrowhawk Gyrocopter. We will soon have one installed in a Sport Copter II, the Outback 2 and the Sport Hornet. The folks that make the Sport Hornet are at the Rotamax factory as I speak testing the engine on their aircraft with various props and in different configurations. We've had a lot of interest from many Zenith 601 & 701 builders regarding our engine, so it's good news to hear that you're working on building a FWF kit for this engine to work with those planes. Please contact me--we'd love to do what we can to assist.

[quote="jerry(at)jerryhey.com"]The future is now.  At Sun n Fun  you will be able to see real engines  

running and torn down.  They have engines running on the dyno  and  

other test beds such as a motorcycle and RTV that I think  you will be  

able to see perform at Sun n Fun.  I don't know if they will have an  

engine in a flying airplane but that is coming very soon.   Jerry

On Mar 25, 2008, at 10:43 AM, Gig Giacona wrote:

[quote] 

 >

 The Rotomax might well be a great engine some day but I'd have to  

 say that day is probably well off in the future. If you look at the  

 pictures on their website they are all still computer generated and  

 not photos of real engines.

 jerry(at)jerryhey.com wrote:

> I agree with what Mark has said but a new player is about to be  

> added to the engine list that may change everything.

 --------

 W.R. &quot;Gig&quot; Giacona

 601XL Under Construction

 See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=172515#172515

[/quote][/quote]

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